The Lords Challenge To Critics

[Thinking]

Does the scriptures say for us to be perfect as our Father in Heaven? YES

If one does become perfect then He is LIKE our Father in Heaven.

The words "like" and "as" are used in similes, which does not mean that the two things being compared are exactly the same.

In your own Book of Mormon:

1 Nephi 2:10

And he also spake unto Lemuel: O that thou mightest be like unto this valley, firm and steadfast, and immovable in keeping the commandments of the Lord!

Does this mean that Lemuel is going to turn into a valley?

[asbestosman]

Ha...gotcha. The Lord hardly ever uses the word "yeah."

But it was a goode atempte.

Maybe it was just a misspelling kinda like the thousand or so corrections since the first printing of the Book of Mormon.

[redwave]

you know, now that I remember those quote about false prophets, I find it quite interesting. The fact that such new doctrines were introduced with the coming of Mormonism should have been enough for people to realize that great caution needed to be taken. There is no reason that God would have to make such new and large proclamations through one man. Those of us on the outside of Mormonsim agree very sternly that there is blasphemy in mulitplicity of gods and the idea that God was once a man who ascended, leading people to believe as Lucifer did that the realm of God is attainable by humans standards. I'm not opting for an argument on this now, but to those of us who have not been indoctrinated by Mormonism and who know what we believe and why, it can be very unnerving to think so many have accepted such unbiblical ideas, despite the Bible being part of the religion. I have to wonder who is worshipped more - Jesus, or Joseph Smith.

The Bible is a perfect and complete revelation. It is our only rule of faith and practice. But this is no reason why God may not show the past, present, and future fulfillment of His Word, in these last days, by dreams and visions, according to Peter's testimony. True visions are given to lead us to God, and His Written Word; but those that are given for a new rule of faith and practice, separate from the Bible, cannot be from God, and should be rejected.

In this forthright declaration may be seen an allusion to Joseph Smith, leader of the Mormons, who, because of some of his teachings and actions, had been murdered in 1844.

[Son]

oh, it was taken out of context, was it?

oh, Matthew 5:28? perfection? Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." God wouldn't give us a commandment we could not keep, so it is by grace that we are saved. God called Noah and Job perfect, but they being humans were surely sinners as well, so what then does "perfect" really mean? the greek teleioi translated "perfect" can also mean "complete" or "mature". There is nothing about perfect humans progressing to godhood in the Bible.

In Matthew the perfection verse is in respect to being like God.

Be Ye therefore perfect, EVEN as your Father in Heaven is Perfect.

I think perfection in this context is in the highest regard of perfection. GOD.

[Thinking]

In Matthew the perfection verse is in respect to being like God.

Be Ye therefore perfect, EVEN as your Father in Heaven is Perfect.

I think perfection in this context is in the highest regard of perfection. GOD.

1 Kings 4:29

And God gave Solomon wisdom and understanding exceeding much, and largeness of heart, even as the sand that is on the sea shore.

Did God give Solomon a bunch of sand, or is the Lord making reference (countless) to how much knowledge Solomon has?

Revelation 6:13

And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Are the stars the same size as figs? Will the stars turn into figs?

[Lightbearer]

That was the reason the Jews wanted to kill Jesus Christ himself...He dared to teach that man had the potential to become as God is. Read the following:

(John 10:30-36)

"I and [my] Father are one.

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

What did the Savior mean? How does that fit with the following:

(John 17:20-24) "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."

How do you become one with God? Through Jesus Christ we become one with the Father. Read more:

(1 John 3:1-3) "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."

Why are we called the sons of God? Because we are His children:

(Romans 8:14-17) "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together."

Joint-heirs with Christ? What are we heirs to?

(Revelation 3:21) "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

What is this talking about? There is no arrogance to being a "joint-heir" with Jesus Christ. Especially since it is our birthright if we keep the covenant we have made with our God. You may belittle and war against the Saints but it does not matter we know in whom we have intrusted, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith is His Prophet, the prophet through whom Jesus Christ restored His true Church and Kingdom.

[DonBradley]

I said that I would not respond negatively or positively if someone did come up with something but we already have that in all scriptures. Lets come up with something new.

Ice, apparently you misunderstand the very challenge you cite. It does not require anyone to come up with unprecedented doctrine. Rather, the challenge is to produce a revelatory document like one of Smith's, and not all of Smith's offer new doctrine at all. Some reiterate biblical ideas, restate earlier revelations, or serve purely administrative functions (e.g., calling someone) with no doctrinal teaching at all.

BTW, your rejoinder to Tarski reminds me of the Southern Baptists in my mission, who , to prove we didn't need the Book of Mormon, would sometimes ask what the Book of Mormon taught that wasn't already in the Bible. If something remotely like biblical teaching was offered to them, even if it was more explicit in the BoM, they would cite Bible references to show that it was already taught there; and if something not in the Bible was taught, they would use it to dismiss the Book of Mormon as non-Biblical.

The D&C 67 challenge is just to produce a revelatory text like one of those in the D&C. No further requirements or special pleading arguments should be added to it.

Don

[DonBradley]

Oh, also, I've not yet read the whole thread, so I don't know how explicitly this has been covered, but the Qur'an offers the same challenge to its skeptics: If you don't believe these suras are from Allah, just try to produce one like the least of them.

Anyone who thinks the D&C 67 test is a valid one should, by parity of reasoning, think the same of the Qur'anic test. So, unless you are willing to meet Allah's Challenge to the Critics, you should either take the Qur'anic challenge (with a pledge to convert to Islam if you fail) or give up on pushing the D&C challenge as any more valid than that in the Qur'an.

Don

[DonBradley]

It's rare that anyone actually tries to meet the challenge set forth in D&C 67. To show that composing a text like one of Joseph Smith's D&C revelations is not supernaturally difficult, I've tried my hand at it. It's difficult to know what content to include, or leave out, in order to not offend persons of Latter-day Saint faith; so, I have tried to make the content of the piece a bit unserious while still keeping the tone broadly "scriptural," and even conveying faux doctrinal insight.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

Behold, thus saith the Lord unto my servant Ice: You must needs repent, for you have erred in that you have not understood and have taken upon yourself to contend with those who will not believe my words. If they will not believe my words in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, they will not believe them though thou shouldst repeat them an hundred times. My sheep know my voice. Wherefore need they to hear thine? Behold, have I not said that I would fight my own battles?

And it shall come to pass that I shall again speak a word in season unto those who are wise in their own eyes. And if they cannot write the like of them, yet they bow not the knee and confess not that these words are of me and are mine, then shall they be smitten with a scourge, yea, then shall the very hairs of their heads begin to fall out, till they cry out, even as Job. But if they will repent, behold, not a hair of their heads shall be lost.

Behold and lo, I come quickly, to judge the righteous and the wicked according to that which they post. Wherefore, O Ice, look to thyself. Amen.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

Admittedly, it's not the Vision (D&C 76), but if I can produce this with no pre-planning in about 25 minutes, and while trying to avoid being too serious about it, a talented, Bible-versed writer acting with forethought could surely do much, much better--quite without supernatural aid.

Don

[Calm]

Don't you know that TBM's don't worship JS, they revere him!

If you go to the official LDS Church website, there is a link to the "Joseph Smith Website" at the bottom of the history page. http://www.lds.org/churchhistory/0,15478,3900-1,00.html

I could not find a link to a "Jesus Christ Website."

In fairness, I did an "all documents search" for both "Joseph Smith" and "Jesus Christ."

"Joseph Smith" returned 7,969 results.

"Jesus Christ" returned 18,051 results.

And if you use variations of their names such as Christ's titles, etc., the difference increases.

Since LDS.org is a "Jesus Christ website" why would we need another?

[Calm]

we are needing, we need grace to get to heaven. and we should not be so arrogant as to think we deserve to even be in heaven, more or leass our own god. that is why the doctrine of attaining godhood is blasphemous

Unless this was a gift promised us by God. To refuse the possibility of his gift would be blasphemous, imo, just like refusing that grace or salvation can be given to us could be called blasphemous.

LDS do not believe that we "deserve" godhood. In fact, quite the opposite since we know we can't get there on our own, but only through the grace of Christ and the blessings of the Father.

We do believe that God has offered us the chance however; as any loving father would offer their children all that he has, so has the Father.

In your own Book of Mormon:

Son is not LDS, IIRC, though I believe he accepts the BoM as scripture. Perhaps he will correct me if I am wrong.

[Son]

Did God give Solomon a bunch of sand, or is the Lord making reference (countless) to how much knowledge Solomon has?

Are the stars the same size as figs? Will the stars turn into figs?

Seeing as the perfection command was at the end of the Be-attitudes list and the context was truly on living as Christ. Your comparisons lack the same sincerity.

[Son]

Unless this was a gift promised us by God. To refuse the possibility of his gift would be blasphemous, imo, just like refusing that grace or salvation can be given to us could be called blasphemous.

LDS do not believe that we "deserve" godhood. In fact, quite the opposite since we know we can't get there on our own, but only through the grace of Christ and the blessings of the Father.

We do believe that God has offered us the chance however; as any loving father would offer their children all that he has, so has the Father.

Son is not LDS, IIRC, though I believe he accepts the BoM as scripture. Perhaps he will correct me if I am wrong.

Not only do I accept the BoM, I agree with what you said as well.

What is IIRC

[Calm]

Not only do I accept the BoM, I agree with what you said as well.

What is IIRC

IIRC--if I recall correctly

I'm recalling that your disagreement (simplified) is with organized religion and the authority issue. Am I correct?

[Son]

IIRC--if I recall correctly

I'm recalling that your disagreement (simplified) is with organized religion and the authority issue. Am I correct?

Thanks that one got by me some how.

Yes, I think the authority doctrine has been taken to an extreme, and has possibly enabled mediocrity.

As well as a foundation of trusting higher ups, therefore (for many) taking away the primary Go to God principles.

Organized religion is in most cases established by God and has a great purpose of keeping the principles alive and ready for those that desire to know, over time though it gets watered down by man. I think that is evident, due to the splinter groups and the need for JS to seek answers directly from God and Jesus.

This one is the difficult one to say, but I feel needs to be examined and that is. When was the last Prophet actually chosen by God. That one is the one that I could not get beyond when it came to be rebaptised and join the church. If the bishop would have left out the sustaining the presidency part, things would have been different.

As far as I know the current Prophet is a noble and honorable man. But to me not a Prophet chosen of God.

I see this as a stumbling block within the church.

Though that does not mean that I would in any way discourage someone to join the church if they feel led to do so.

It is my issue, most probably don't care whether a quorom pick the Prophet or God. Some may even think there is no difference.

son

[ice]

i want to say a few things. when I started this thing I was in the wrong spirit. Mine was not humility. It was more to prove a point. That never gets anyone very far. I wanted to see reacons on the board. I know its not how the lord wants me to be. I enjoy sharing knowledge or helping somone learn more on a subject that is not completley understood or debate on somthing were the facts or doctorine is wrong only to inform or help someone who knows less about the subject. And I want to say that I apologise for that, trying to argue or just prove a point, I wasn't in the right spirit. I feel that I should make ammends or undo what I have been doing bringing up this topic of varied opinion, with not having the right intentions. i have been in wrong by doing this thing. I hope that some can learn by my mistake that this isn't how the lord would have us do. ice.

[It occurs to me . . .]

Hearken! Oh ye inhabitants of the earth. Listen together and open your ears, for it is I, the Lord of all the earth, the creator of all things that speaketh unto you. Yea, even Jesus Christ speaking by the voice of my servant whom I have called and chosen to be a light and a covenant to the world in these last days. I have called him and given him a name to be had in remembrance before me, even the name Immanuel David Isaiah, which name being interpreted means: God with us--Beloved God--The Lord is salvation--signifying the deliverance that shall come to my people by my mighty hand in these last days. For lo, I am even now making bare my holy arm in the eyes of all nations, for gross darkness covers the earth and gross darkness envelops the minds of the people, for Satan reigns and his dominions are great, and he sitteth upon many waters, even Babylon the great, that great whore of all the earth. And the peoples of the earth stumble and grope in darkness at noonday, and the humble followers of Jesus Christ suffer and mourn under the heavy hand of oppression and murder and secret combinations, which do by their secret crafts and arts, their secret governments and societies, with their false traditions and churches subject the whole earth to the iron yoke of bondage, misery and death; and the true and faithful and humble followers of Christ cry out in the anguish of their soul for relief and deliverance. I, the Lord God, the Savior of the world, have long heard their cries, and the cries of all the holy prophets and saints who have cried unto me, and do still fervently petition me, and to whom I have promised and covenanted that the day of deliverance will come. And verily, verily, I say unto all, Repent ye, Repent ye, while the day lasts; before the night comes, wherein no work or labor for my kingdom can be performed. Yea, verily, I say unto all in every nation, in every land, among all peoples, repent, and come unto me that I may heal you. Forsake all your works of darkness wherein ye seek for riches and the vain and foolish things of this world, wherein ye seek to obtain power and gain and popularity and to satisfy all the lusts of the flesh. Yea, cease to do evil, and learn to do good, and come unto me, and I will Heal you. For this cause I have raised up my servant Immanuel David Isaiah, even my righteous right hand, to be a light and a covenant to my people--to all those who will repent and come unto me, for in my servant, Immanuel, is the fullness of gospel, which I the Lord brought forth out of obscurity and out of darkness through my servant Joseph Smith, Jr. And by the hand of my servant Joseph, I, the Lord God, Jehovah, Brought forth out of the bowels of the earth the Book of Mormon, which back contains my true doctrine, and stands with the Bible to witness for my name unto all the earth, to show unto all people that I am the very Christ who suffered and died for their sins, and rose again the third day, that all men who will believe in me, and will repent, and be baptized in my name shall have eternal life. And I, even Jesus Chris appeared unto my servant Joseph Smith, Jr., and I sent min angels unto him, and I revealed unto him many great and marvelous truths pertaining to my everlasting gospel, and I conferred upon him and other faithful ones the holy priesthood of God and ordained them prophets, seers, revelators, and priests and teachers unto my people. And I gave them power to baptize in my name and to confer the gift of the Holy Ghost, which I pour out upon all who are worthy of the same--showing forth works of faith and repentance. And to all those who receive these things of which I have spoken and endure to the end will I give eternal life with me and my Father in my Father's kingdom, for I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no one cometh unto the Father but by me. For this cause I established, through my servant Joseph Smith Jr., the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth with all the keys and powers and ordinances of the Holy Priesthood for the salvation of mankind, being the same church that I established through Peter, James, John in the meridian of time, and it was lost through apostasy and a falling away. And this priesthood and this power, which was lost, I reestablished in these last days through my servant Joseph. And this priesthood and this power have continued with my last day church, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, through a succession of prophets until the present day. Wherefore, I, the Lord God will not be mocked, for verily, I say unto you that I have seen the wicked ness and the abominations of my people in these last days, even all the house of Israel, for they have rejected the new and everlasting covenant, even the Book of Mormon, and they have not heeded in the words of mine anointed prophets who cry unto them Repent ye, Repent ye of all your idolatries, and your abominations, and your secret combinations, wherein ye murder to get gain; and my people will not hear. Therefore, I, the Lord God take away even the light which they have. And I hide up the true prophets who are still among them. And I give them false prophets who speak in vain and foolish and lying words unto them. And the fullness of the priesthood keys, authority and power, I bestow upon another who is in their midst and they know him not, unto whom rightly belongs...the priesthood and the keys of the kingdom for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days. Nevertheless, I am a God of perfect mercy, justice, and order, therefore, a portion of priesthood keys and power to perform outward ordinances I leave with them for a short time, for my spirit has not wholly ceased to strive with them. For I have granted unto them an interim period of time to choose whom they will serve, and whom they will follow and obey, even as I did when I anointed David to be king over Israel by the hand of my prophet Samuel while Saul continued king for a time by the voice of the people. As also with the Jews when I walked and ministered among them, I accepted a portion of their sacrifices and outward ordinances for an interim period of time, but that space of time came to an end, for others were anointed in their stead, and the interim time was granted for them to choose a new and everlasting covenant. So it is now. One who is mighty and strong I have ordained in the stead of him who was ordained of God. For he, who was ordained of God and is sustained by the people, has acted deceitfully and is lifted up in the pride of his heart, and he has rejected the fullness of my gospel, even the new and everlasting covenant, and he seeks the praise of the world and exalts himself, and he leads the children of the promise with a flaxen cord down to their destruction. Wherefore, the cup of my wrath and indignation is nearly full to overflowing, for there has never been from the beginning of man upon the earth such great wickedness among the house of Israel, and among the inhabitants of the earth as there now is. And I, the Lord God hold in reserve a swift judgement against every worker of iniquity who will not repent while the day lasts; and lo, lo, I am even at the door

The word of the Lord for our time . . . . . brought to you by Brian David Mitchell. How did he do?

[auteur55]

Don Bradley's works for me, I'm impressed.

Now since this is the Lord's challenge who do present this to to see if it qualifies as revelation on par with JS.

[Tarski]

Ha...gotcha. The Lord hardly ever uses the word "yeah."

But it was a goode atempte.

I invoke the weaknesses of men excuse:

And whoso receiveth this record, and shall not condemn it because of the imperfections which are in it, the same shall know of greater things than these. Behold, I am Moroni; and were it possible, I would make all things known unto you." [All things aren't possible with God?] (Mormon 8:1, 12)

.....because of the Holy Ghost which thou hast given them; And thou hast made us that we could write but little, because of the awkwardness of our hands...Thou hast also made our words powerful and great, even that we cannot write them; wherefore, when we write we behold our weakness, and stumble because of the placing of our words; and I fear lest the Gentiles shall mock at our words. And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness; ... " (Ether 12:23-27)

[gitxsanartist]

Reading through this thread it amazes me how the use of old english or "Victorian English" changes the tone of any given statement. What I wonder is how the BofM would sound if altered to read in modern english, would it be easier to read and would it loose some of its credibility?

[rittermonster06]

I don't think that the writings by Christopher Nemelka have been mentioned yet... They include the lost 116 pages, the Book of Lehi, and the Sealed Portion of the Book of Mormon plates.

The Sealed Portion

Have a good one everybody!

-Ryan

[erichard]

I would like to see how the critics of the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants feel about this one, ... Can they produce something like it even remotely? ... If they are of God they will testify for themselves.

At one point in my life fell in love with the D&C revelations, reading them with the Spirit many many times. My own take on this D&C 67 "test" is that the Words of revelation AND the true Spirit with these words must be made-- to equal what Joseph produced.

When the Lord said, "My sheep hear My voice", it also includes the Spirit with His voice.

As far as Shakespeare and other great writers and scientists, etc, I know many were also inspired, and one can also receive a good spirit by reading their works. God certainly does not just teach and inspire his children through the scriptures.

For someone searching for further revelation from God, I am inspired by the Second Book of Commandments-- not just by the words of it, but by the Spirit.

Richard

[Atlasdisciple]

I think concerning the challenge, you would have to write like the Doctrine and Covenants, the things you wrote would have to come true. And also you would have to get a following at least on par with the early Church that followed the Prophet, otherwise your writings will not be the equal of Joseph Smith's. Good luck! It cant be done outside being aided by the Holy Ghost.

[It occurs to me . . .]

I think concerning the challenge, you would have to write like the Doctrine and Covenants, the things you wrote would have to come true. And also you would have to get a following at least on par with the early Church that followed the Prophet, otherwise your writings will not be the equal of Joseph Smith's. Good luck! It cant be done outside being aided by the Holy Ghost.

It's thoughtful of you to tip the scales in the Lord's favor by adding to the challenge, perhaps he should have consulted you before he wrote:

6 Now, seek ye out of the Book of Commandments, even the least that is among them, and appoint him that is the most wise among you;

7 Or, if there be any among you that shall make one like unto it, then ye are justified in saying that ye do not know that they are true;

8 But if ye cannot make one like unto it, ye are under condemnation if ye do not bear record that they are true.

9 For ye know that there is no unrighteousness in them, and that which is righteous cometh down from above, from the Father of lights.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 67:1 - 9)

[Dale]

I would like to see Mark Hoffmann try to take up this challenge. I am not sure that because all the persons around Joseph Smith wern't smart anough to do it nobody could. It might take an expert forger to do it, but it is in my mind possible.

I doubt anybody in Joseph's group at the time took up the challenge. The condemnation would only apply after the challenge was taken up, and failed.

What statements in the D.&C. have come true? Does anybody have a listing of fulfilled prophecies in the D.&C.? I know of reputed false prophecies in the D.&C. by Anti-Mormons.