The Lords Challenge To Critics

[caudicus]

Depends on how you define "knowledge" I would say.

No, not really. If you go making up new definitions for stuff to win arguments, it doesn't make you right, it just makes you a sophist.

[_Frost]

you know, now that I remember those quote about false prophets, I find it quite interesting. The fact that such new doctrines were introduced with the coming of Mormonism should have been enough for people to realize that great caution needed to be taken. There is no reason that God would have to make such new and large proclamations through one man. Those of us on the outside of Mormonsim agree very sternly that there is blasphemy in mulitplicity of gods and the idea that God was once a man who ascended, leading people to believe as Lucifer did that the realm of God is attainable by humans standards. I'm not opting for an argument on this now, but to those of us who have not been indoctrinated by Mormonism and who know what we believe and why, it can be very unnerving to think so many have accepted such unbiblical ideas, despite the Bible being part of the religion. I have to wonder who is worshipped more - Jesus, or Joseph Smith.

[Mormon Vader]

1. And behold, the day doth come that none shall be able to stand and all shall bow. For as the light of the sun doeth surely return to descend upon the earth in radiance so shall the Son of God return to light the minds of men.

2. He shall reign over the nations in glory and wisdom and none shall deny his power and sovereignty. Verily, every man shall confess and every voice praise his name.

3. Yeah, and it shall come to pass that darkness and shadow shall flee and uncertainty dissolve upon his return. For behold, on that great day there shall be naught that doubt in the land and wavering there shall be none. His promise shall be fulfilled, yeah every jot and tittle. The wicked shall mourn but the righteous shall rejoice. For his voice will be as the voice of a loved one long forgotten and then remembered in joy. Yeah, even the voice of the Son begotten of the everlasting Father.

4. And now I say unto you my brethren; lest ye be born again and repent of your sins, ye shall be filled with sorrow. For He shall open the book of life and thy name shall not be found therein.

TESTIFY ! !

[asbestosman]

Surah 2. The Cow

23. And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.

24. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.

[Son]

you know, now that I remember those quote about false prophets, I find it quite interesting. The fact that such new doctrines were introduced with the coming of Mormonism should have been enough for people to realize that great caution needed to be taken. There is no reason that God would have to make such new and large proclamations through one man. Those of us on the outside of Mormonsim agree very sternly that there is blasphemy in mulitplicity of gods and the idea that God was once a man who ascended, leading people to believe as Lucifer did that the realm of God is attainable by humans standards. I'm not opting for an argument on this now, but to those of us who have not been indoctrinated by Mormonism and who know what we believe and why, it can be very unnerving to think so many have accepted such unbiblical ideas, despite the Bible being part of the religion. I have to wonder who is worshipped more - Jesus, or Joseph Smith.

So how would you define being ONE with God and Christ?

Satan wanted his stars ABOVE God, not equal to. Pride............he fell........

[asbestosman]

You know, I wonder if this challange could be made fair. What if we took a relatively obscure revelation and also several fake revelations, and then had various people attempt to identify the true revelation from the imposters kind of like a police line-up? I mean if God offers the challenge, then wouldn't He be willing to go through with the whole set-up?

For those who do not discern the true revelation, should their temple recommends be revoked?

Also a question for critics: if someone were able to always discern the correct revelations from the fakes, would you return to full activity in the church? How about if they could merely do so most of the time?

[Son]

You know, I wonder if this challange could be made fair. What if we took a relatively obscure revelation and also several fake revelations, and then had various people attempt to identify the true revelation from the imposters kind of like a police line-up? I mean if God offers the challenge, then wouldn't He be willing to go through with the whole set-up?

For those who do not discern the true revelation, should their temple recommends be revoked?

Also a question for critics: if someone were able to always discern the correct revelations from the fakes, would you return to full activity in the church? How about if they could merely do so most of the time?

Why rely on someone else to discern for you when you have received the gift of the Holy Spirit and need not that any man teach you. I choose a direct unfiltered relationship with my Father.

[phaedrus ut]

The Qur'an has a few verses challenging anyone to produce a single chapter equal to one in the Qu'ran.

• A challenge to all of mankind to create a book of the stature of the Qur'an,
  "'If all mankind and the jinn would come together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce its like even though they exerted all and their strength in aiding one another." (Sura 17:88)
  
• Achallenge asking those who denied the divine origin of the Qur'an to imitate ten surahs of the Qur'ān:
  "Or do they say that he has invented it? Say (to them), 'Bring ten invented surahs like it, and call (for help) on whomever you can besides Allah, if you are truthful." (Sura 11:13)
  
• A challenge to produce a single surah to match what is in the Qur'an
  "And if you all are in doubt about what I have revealed to My servant, bring a single surah like it, and call your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful." (Sura 2:23)
  

The shortest chapter of the Qur'an is Sura 108, consisting of three verses. Yet apparently no one has yet to produce anything close to meeting the challenge to match the Qu'ran or even it's smallest Sura.

Phaedrus

[_Frost]

So how would you define being ONE with God and Christ?

Satan wanted his stars ABOVE God, not equal to. Pride............he fell........

Genesis 3:4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God knowing good and evil." (emphasis added, of course)

The root of sin is right there; disobedience and making oneself as a god.

[Black Moclips]

Uh oh, I think I felt the spirit when I read Tarski's attempt at scripture. What the heck does that mean?

Also, why would he need to come up with something "new"? Certainly most of the scriptures rehash ideas over and over again. Why would his attempt need to be "new"?

[_Frost]

Also, why would he need to come up with something "new"? Certainly most of the scriptures rehash ideas over and over again. Why would his attempt need to be "new"?

tell me about it. Three books into the BOM, and I don't think I've really seen anything of substance. Just a lot of plaguerized Isaiah and repetitious "if thou wouldst turn from thy ways". Not very well narrated, either, I must say. Very unspecific..."rehash" I agree

[Calm]

No, not really. If you go making up new definitions for stuff to win arguments, it doesn't make you right, it just makes you a sophist.

I am talking about spiritual knowledge about God, the place of man in His creations, knowledge of self, etc. as opposed to scientific knowledge. If one doesn't believe in God, then one would likely define that knowledge as delusion rather than knowledge, but those of us who believe in revelation, etc. define such things as actual knowledge.

I don't really see this as a new definition, but rather being aware of the assumptions people bring to the word.

www.dictionary.com: knowledge: 1. acquaintance with facts, truths, or principles, as from study or investigation; general erudition: knowledge of many things.

LDS and other religious faith would say that there is a great deal of truths and principles that were newly found in the scriptures.

[asbestosman]

tell me about it. Three books into the BOM, and I don't think I've really seen anything of substance. Just a lot of plaguerized Isaiah and repetitious "if thou wouldst turn from thy ways". Not very well narrated, either, I must say. Very unspecific..."rehash" I agree

And don't forget all the Plagiarized material from Psalms and the like that one finds in the epistles of Paul.

[Son]

Genesis 3:4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God knowing good and evil." (emphasis added, of course)

The root of sin is right there; disobedience and making oneself as a god.

Yes, Satan tempts and lies. Nothing out of the ordinary.

In that respect we are like God, knowing good from evil. Nothing about being higher than God, or better than God.

Let this mind be in YOU, which was Also in Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal to God.

To you who can believe the things that I do ye shall do and MORE.

Read John regarding oneness with God and Christ.

[_Frost]

Yes, Satan tempts and lies. Nothing out of the ordinary.

In that respect we are like God, knowing good from evil. Nothing about being higher than God, or better than God.

Let this mind be in YOU, which was Also in Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal to God.

To you who can believe the things that I do ye shall do and MORE.

Read John regarding oneness with God and Christ.

very well, then, a student can only be as good as his master and not better. at the same time, Jesus was directly of God, God himself in human form; for humans to think they have that status is the problem. Granted, that's where Mormon doctrine branches from the Bible, concerning the nature of man and God. However, if God is never changing (all right, Mormon 9:9), how did he go from man to god?

Besides, if this doctrine were real, there would be traces of it in the Bible, and even if it had been taken out or something absurd like that, there would have been commentaries on it. Everybody wants to quote Psalms 82:6 on the issue, but Rabbinic tradition saw the "gods" as unjust rulers. One verse later it says "But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler." Hardly a case for exaltation

[Son]

very well, then, a student can only be as good as his master and not better. at the same time, Jesus was directly of God, God himself in human form; for humans to think they have that status is the problem. Granted, that's where Mormon doctrine branches from the Bible, concerning the nature of man and God. However, if God is never changing (all right, Mormon 9:9), how did he go from man to god?

Besides, if this doctrine were real, there would be traces of it in the Bible, and even if it had been taken out or something absurd like that, there would have been commentaries on it. Everybody wants to quote Psalms 82:6 on the issue, but Rabbinic tradition saw the "gods" as unjust rulers. One verse later it says "But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler." Hardly a case for exaltation

Exactly, Satan wanted to be better not as, there in is the pride.

We are directly of God as well, heirs, joint heirs with Christ.

He went from man to God the same way we are too. Grace by Grace. Then we will be never changing as well, we will have arrived at godhood, perfected, immortal, divine, like Jesus- one.

[ice]

oh ya and if someone comes up with somthing good or somthing that sheds a little more light on a certain subject then would it be a good idea for you to ask people to pray about it like the Book of Mormon does.

[Son]

oh ya and if someone comes up with somthing good or somthing that sheds a little more light on a certain subject then would it be a good idea for you to ask people to pray about it like the Book of Mormon does.

Don't know if this is directed at me or not?

If it is, revelation directly from the Holy Spirit is the only way one grows into knowing, books can put one on the path to greater seeking, but eventually one is taught directly, things no books contain. They are personal instructions that only the individual can be edified by.

THe still small voice within, is the ultimate teacher, later it becomes audible and you speak no word nor perform no act, save it is by the blessing of the Father.

[Cold Steel]

3. Yeah, and it shall come to pass that darkness and shadow shall flee and uncertainty dissolve upon his return. For behold, on that great day there shall be naught that doubt in the land and wavering there shall be none. His promise shall be fulfilled, yeah every jot and tittle. The wicked shall mourn but the righteous shall rejoice. For his voice will be as the voice of a loved one long forgotten and then remembered in joy. Yeah, even the voice of the Son begotten of the everlasting Father.

Ha...gotcha. The Lord hardly ever uses the word "yeah."

But it was a goode atempte.

[TJane]

Genesis 3:4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God knowing good and evil." (emphasis added, of course)

The root of sin is right there; disobedience and making oneself as a god.

I agree that disobedience is a sin. However, God Himself confirmed that the part Adam and Eve had become like God in knowing good and evil here:

Genesis 3: 22 And the LORD God asaid, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: ...

The lie was that they wouldn't die. The truth was that, in being able to know good and evil, they had become like God (actually the Lord God says 'as one of us' <= Look! Plural gods!) in that they could now know the difference between good and evil. Here again we have an example of how Satan lies - he tells complete falsehoods ("You will not surely die") and he adds things that are true ("You be like the gods knowing good and evil"). The interesting thing is that now-a-days, Satan can tell people that the whole thing is false - thus, again, he's telling one truth and one lie.

Very sneaky, Satan!

Adam and Eve had certainly had not achieved godhood yet, but had taken the first step. As far as getting completely there, what else could Christ have meant when He talked about His followers being co-heirs to all the Father hath?

Jane

[Thinking]

I have to wonder who is worshipped more - Jesus, or Joseph Smith.

Don't you know that TBM's don't worship JS, they revere him!

If you go to the official LDS Church website, there is a link to the "Joseph Smith Website" at the bottom of the history page. http://www.lds.org/churchhistory/0,15478,3900-1,00.html

I could not find a link to a "Jesus Christ Website."

In fairness, I did an "all documents search" for both "Joseph Smith" and "Jesus Christ."

"Joseph Smith" returned 7,969 results.

"Jesus Christ" returned 18,051 results.

[_Frost]

I agree that disobedience is a sin. However, God Himself confirmed that the part Adam and Eve had become like God in knowing good and evil here:

The lie was that they wouldn't die. The truth was that, in being able to know good and evil, they had become like God (actually the Lord God says 'as one of us' <= Look! Plural gods!) in that they could now know the difference between good and evil. Here again we have an example of how Satan lies - he tells complete falsehoods ("You will not surely die") and he adds things that are true ("You be like the gods knowing good and evil"). The interesting thing is that now-a-days, Satan can tell people that the whole thing is false - thus, again, he's telling one truth and one lie.

Very sneaky, Satan!

Adam and Eve had certainly had not achieved godhood yet, but had taken the first step. As far as getting completely there, what else could Christ have meant when He talked about His followers being co-heirs to all the Father hath?

Jane

if you really want to rely on a book such as the Book of Abraham (chapter 4) to get your results, it would make sense, although the argument would then appear that the Book of Abraham was actually a copy of the egyptian book of the dead. "Us" you will often hear of royalty, who speak for their kingdom, or here, mostly likely of the trinity. Again, though, Christians and Mormons can't seem to find common ground on that issue, either.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

note the "called gods", remember he was writing to the Corinthians who were having some idol problems. note the use of the adjective "all" however

I don't know, they may revere Joseph Smith, but it sure sounds like they worship him.

[Son]

if you really want to rely on a book such as the Book of Abraham (chapter 4) to get your results, it would make sense, although the argument would then appear that the Book of Abraham was actually a copy of the egyptian book of the dead. "Us" you will often hear of royalty, who speak for their kingdom, or here, mostly likely of the trinity. Again, though, Christians and Mormons can't seem to find common ground on that issue, either.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

note the "called gods", remember he was writing to the Corinthians who were having some idol problems. note the use of the adjective "all" however

I don't know, they may revere Joseph Smith, but it sure sounds like they worship him.

Way out of context, that is the tragedy of the bible being used without the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Does the scriptures say for us to be perfect as our Father in Heaven? YES

If one does become perfect then He is LIKE our Father in Heaven. Enoch, Elijah, Jesus, Mother Mary, Stephen, James, John, Writer of the Odes of Solomon and many other modern day peoples, perfection is a command that God prepares the way, to those that seek HIm first.

Are we not the TEmples of God?

Are we not heirs to the throne of God?

What does this all mean. Only the Spirit can reveal the fullness. Happy seeking.

[_Frost]

Way out of context, that is the tragedy of the bible being used without the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Does the scriptures say for us to be perfect as our Father in Heaven? YES

If one does become perfect then He is LIKE our Father in Heaven. Enoch, Elijah, Jesus, Mother Mary, Stephen, James, John, Writer of the Odes of Solomon and many other modern day peoples, perfection is a command that God prepares the way, to those that seek HIm first.

Are we not the TEmples of God?

Are we not heirs to the throne of God?

What does this all mean. Only the Spirit can reveal the fullness. Happy seeking.

oh, it was taken out of context, was it?

oh, Matthew 5:28? perfection? Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." God wouldn't give us a commandment we could not keep, so it is by grace that we are saved. God called Noah and Job perfect, but they being humans were surely sinners as well, so what then does "perfect" really mean? the greek teleioi translated "perfect" can also mean "complete" or "mature". There is nothing about perfect humans progressing to godhood in the Bible.

[_Frost]

besides, remember the robbers crucified with Jesus. one said that he and the other robber deserved crucifixion, but this man Jesus was blameless. Jesus took death for us so that we could be forgiven and be pure enough to stand before God. Yet we are called to take up our crosses (that is, our lives), and follow Jesus. the one who thinks he is perfect and able to ascend to some great realm would wipe the dust from his shoes and not follow if he is so perfect to begin with. we are needing, we need grace to get to heaven. and we should not be so arrogant as to think we deserve to even be in heaven, more or leass our own god. that is why the doctrine of attaining godhood is blasphemous