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How To Find Nephite Artifacts


Olavarria

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I have alawas heard the accusation that nothing "nephite" has been found in the ruins. That begs the questian, what is a nephite? What traits or background would a person need in order to be called a nephite? What traits would someone have in order to disqualify him as such? Once you define what a nephite is, then you would ask, "what would these people leave behind, and how would we recognize it?"

1)anyone who is not a lamanite. Jacob 1:13

2)political affiliation, loyal to the Nephi dynasty,kinda like Saudi, as in ibn Saud. Jacob 1:14

3)believer in the religion taught by Nephi and his descendants, kinda like a Sunni vs Shia. 4 Nephi 1:37

4) a blood descendant of Nephi. 3 Nephi 5:10

Given these definitions FROM THE BOM itself, what traces should we expect to find in the ruins or DNA? How would we recognize them? With two of these definitions, even DCP would be considered a Nephite!

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I have alawas heard the accusation that nothing "nephite" has been found in the ruins. That begs the questian, what is a nephite? What traits or background would a person need in order to be called a nephite? What traits would someone have in order to disqualify him as such? Once you define what a nephite is, then you would ask, "what would these people leave behind, and how would we recognize it?"

1)anyone who is not a lamanite. Jacob 1:13

2)political affiliation, loyal to the Nephi dynasty,kinda like Saudi, as in ibn Saud. Jacob 1:14

3)believer in the religion taught by Nephi and his descendants, kinda like a Sunni vs Shia. 4 Nephi 1:37

4) a blood descendant of Nephi. 3 Nephi 5:10

Given these definitions FROM THE BOM itself, what traces should we expect to find in the ruins or DNA? How would we recognize them? With two of these definitions, even DCP would be considered a Nephite!

For starters, I would be happy with finding anything made of steel, or finding evidence of some of the animals that were in the book of Mormon (horse, ox, etc.). It would also be nice if any of the many writings left by the ancients had anything whatsoever to do with the civilizations we read about in the BoM.

Just four hundred years after the supposedly last great battle at Cumorah, a small group of Norse explores landed in Newfoundland. They stayed no longer that a few years, then sailed off. The difference between this small handful of explorers and the massive iron aged civilization that the BoM talks about (you know, the one that spread over the face of all the land) is that these few visitors left undeniable evidence of there existence (Norse buttons, needles, a coin, etc.) and the Nephites left nothing. No horses, no swords, no steel, no smelting of metal of any kind, no old world writing, no silk, and no elephants.

What we do have is a lot of evidence from the real civilizations that lived in the Americas, and they have nothing what so ever to do with anything BoM related. We can now read the glyphs on their builds, and they speak of a people and ideas that have nothing to do with Christian or old world thought.

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"what would these people leave behind, and how would we recognize it?"

I cannot say you will ever not find it.

I have a similar quest, permeating from my childhood that I will find the first alien (extra-terrestrial) artifact, I do hiking in Colorado Plateau, visiting the most isolated areas, looking for it.

The most civilazitions that history mentions, left artifacts, that is how we know about them. The museums are full of displays of cultures vanished many millenias ago.

Isn't it strange that we fail to see anything about BoM describes? How does one suppose to endure a faith that doesn't deliver a single evidence?

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I cannot say you will ever not find it.

I have a similar quest, permeating from my childhood that I will find the first alien (extra-terrestrial) artifact, I do hiking in Colorado Plateau, visiting the most isolated areas, looking for it.

The most civilazitions that history mentions, left artifacts, that is how we know about them. The museums are full of displays of cultures vanished many millenias ago.

Isn't it strange that we fail to see anything about BoM describes? How does one suppose to endure a faith that doesn't deliver a single evidence?

Just faith I suppose. If I needed the proof that is being asked ......hmmmm faith wouldn't be necessary. I believe one day all things will be revealed including what happened to the dinosaurs. :P

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We probably have many "Nephite" artifacts already. We just don't know that they are Nephite.

I'd like to see something with a little Hebrew or Egyptian or Reformed Egyptian on it. After all, they would have been teaching the art of writing in at least two languages, father to son, for hundreds and hundreds of years. Millons of students would have been practicing how to write, for hundreds and hundreds of years. Lacking papyrus, they might have learned to write on sandstone walls. After all, the Native Americans used canyon walls for their pictographs and petroglyphs. Why not a bit of Hebrew from one of the millions of students who would have been learning?

And yet there is not one shred of evidence. Not even of that.

If during an archaeological dig, in one of these Mayan cities, they unearthed an artifact -- just one -- that had Hebrew on it, and dated to around 600 BCE...

I would re-think every dismissal of the church I have ever made. I would re-think my atheism. I would spend months of intensive soul-searching.

As it is, I do none of these things for the very same reason that you LDS faithful do not spend months soul-searching over whether Zeus is really God of the universe.

Incidentally, my very TBM dad always claimed that the dinosaur bones were material from other planets that HF used to create this one. So how could birds be descended from them?

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Loquacious Lurker:

We do have examples of Reformed Egyptian in the Old World context. I not sure as we could even know what it would look like in a Nephite context.

I think that we can accept as a given that "Nahom" has been found in modern day Saudi Arabia, and the Old World "Bountiful" in Yemen. As far as the New World archaeology correlation with the BoM goes, I think that we do not really know what it would even look like to begin with. Say we found a sign that said "Nephi slept here." in the early form of Nephite Reformed Egyptian. What would it look like? I have no idea. How would we even begin to translate it? Again I have no idea.

I'm as TBM as they come, and never believed that dinosaurs were the remnants of destroyed worlds. The extinction, and evolution of the dinosaurs works quite well for me.

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Joseph discovered an old Nephite "altar or tower" that stood near Spring Hill in Missouri. That's the only officially recognized "Nephite" artifact I know of.

Phaedrus

// In the same general area of Spring Hill, Joseph also discovered an altar of stones that was an built by Adam himself to offer sacrifices.

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We do have examples of Reformed Egyptian in the Old World context. I not sure as we could even know what it would look like in a Nephite context.

Based on other historical pictograph/hieroglyph based alphabets, or ones such as Ogham or the Viking runes, I would think the rate of change over one or two hundred years would be very little, don't you? There might be some adaptations made over time, but I would think it would still be recognizable as Hebrew even many hundreds of years on.

Also, the older the artifact, the closer to the original alphabet it would be, so historical context would play a big part in that.

I think that we can accept as a given that "Nahom" has been found in modern day Saudi Arabia, and the Old World "Bountiful" in Yemen.

Okay. That gets us as far as the Middle East.

As far as the New World archaeology correlation with the BoM goes, I think that we do not really know what it would even look like to begin with. Say we found a sign that said "Nephi slept here." in the early form of Nephite Reformed Egyptian. What would it look like? I have no idea. How would we even begin to translate it? Again I have no idea.

That was why I said "Hebrew". If Mormon was bemoaning the fact that he didn't have enough room to write in Hebrew, then he must have been completely confident that he was fluent in the written and spoken language. He wrote in "Reformed Egyptian" instead, which means that he was at the very least bilingual.

Which means that he came from a long line of bilingual people.

Which means that there would have been scribal schools teaching writing, and practicing the art of inscribing metal with written characters for hundreds of years.

Why is there no evidence at all of this?

I'm as TBM as they come, and never believed that dinosaurs were the remnants of destroyed worlds. The extinction, and evolution of the dinosaurs works quite well for me.

My dad also believes that the ten lost tribes live inside the earth, and will come out when the pack ice at the North Pole melts. :P

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For starters, I would be happy with finding anything made of steel, or finding evidence of some of the animals that were in the book of Mormon (horse, ox, etc.). It would also be nice if any of the many writings left by the ancients had anything whatsoever to do with the civilizations we read about in the BoM.

I agree. I'd also like to see some kind of proof that things like barley and cement could possibly have existed in pre-Columbian times---things that clearly are of modern development and which Joseph Smith mistakenly inserted into the text. I'd also be really interested in finding some ancient inscriptions on gold plates and buried in stone boxes in order to prop up Joseph Smith's ridiculous claim that such a thing was done anciently. Oh, and while we're adding to our wish list, I'd like to see some evidence that it was possible for a small, ancient vessel to make a transoceanic journey. Give me a break!

We could make the issue easier by demanding Mormons show us something in the Old World that matched up with the Book of Mormon claims---none of this wiggling with the "we're not sure just where it happened in the Americas" excuse. We know where the BoM claims these guys started (Jerusalem) and we know about where the BoM claims they ended up (SE Arabian peninsula), so Mormons' feet should be held to the fire to come up with something in at least that area of the world! Something like known trails, potential rivers and valleys, proper hunting conditions, existing tribal names, coastal oases, etc. would be nice. Come on, you Mormons, give us something!

:P

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Loquacious Lurker:

Nephi said he wrote in what he called Reformed Egyptian, or he used Egyptian characters modified for ease of use in writing. It has been suggested that the Nephites were the Priestly Class within the larger community. As such could well have used Reformed Egyptian only when writing their Scriptures, but used some other dialect or even language when speaking amongst themselves or with the other classes. This make sense to me as the Catholic liturgy was for many centuries in Latin, while every day speech was in whatever language they spoke.

Until the discovery of the Rosetta Stone the translation of Egyptian into understandable language was impossible. So I assume that some sort of Rosetta Stone would need to be discovered for this type of translation. Though have my doubts as one was ever made, let alone will be discovered. But who knows, one may turn up tomorrow.

The interesting question is how Middle East artifacts, turn up in a book by a young very undereducated man of 1829 in rural New York?

Not necessarily, the writing on metal plates could well have been a single family's tradition. Thus passed from father to son. We have Western Traditions like this from before the forming of Guilds to the modern day practice of passing the family business to the son(s). So there would be few examples to begin with and even few if any remaining to unearth. But who knows we may unearth that room full of plates tomorrow.

If the poles melt I don't know how long they can tread water.

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For starters, I would be happy with finding anything made of steel,

I can agree with you there. But the fact that iron and steel dont get mentioned after Jarom, makes me question how wide spread the technology was. Iron is mentioned in Mosiah, but only as a precious metal?. Iron a precious metal? Again, it makes me wonder whether this was iron as we know it today.

or finding evidence of some of the animals that were in the book of Mormon (horse, ox, etc.).

I find it interesting how persistant this jibe still is. Why do we expect ancients to use the same taxonomical system that we use? Take chinese for example. the giraffe 长颈鹿(long neck deer) and dolphine 海豚(sea piglet). Now we know that giraffes and dolphines are niether deer or piglets. But then again, the pre-modern chinese werent exactly using our kingdom,phylum,class etc. taxonomical system when they describe those animals. So to this day these terms are used. Why would we expect the nephites avoid calling tapirs horses or peckariys swine?

It would also be nice if any of the many writings left by the ancients had anything whatsoever to do with the civilizations we read about in the BoM.

Tell me, which meso american writings dating from 2100bc to 430ad dont deal with the BoM? What do they deal with? Ohh? We dont have any translatable writings from that time period. So the questian is pretty much a non-sequitor.

"Our knowledge of ancient Maya thought must represent only a tiny fraction of the whole picture, for of the thousands of books in which the full extent of their learning and ritual was recorded, only four have survived to modern times (as though all that posterity knew of ourselves were to be based upon three prayer books and Pilgrim's Progress)." (Michael D. Coe, The Maya, London: Thames and Hudson, 4th ed., 1987, p. 161.)

The difference between this small handful of explorers and the massive iron aged civilization that the BoM talks about (you know, the one that spread over the face of all the land) is that these few visitors left undeniable evidence of there existence (Norse buttons, needles, a coin, etc.) and the Nephites left nothing.
Ironed aged? For the first three hundred of their 900 years, yes. And I agree that their is no evidence for this sort of thing. However as for steel, I question how wide spread the technology was, or that it even lasted for all 900 years of their existance. Iron is listed as a precious metal by the time of Mosiah so I wonder if it even is the kind of iron we modern know about. As for spreading over the face of the land, my questian is what land? The BoM only covers a land mass of something like 50 by 200 miles.

I find the comparison between Newfoundland Norse and The Nephites to be problematic; it is a false analogy. Mexico is not Newfoundland. Lehi's family arrived on the scene in 600bc and hung aound for almost 1,000 years, thats alot of time to assimialate and but for the constant prodings of God's Prophets and the records they kept, get any traces of israelite culture bred right out of you. The Norse remains were in a very cold and static part of the world and only had to lay around for 1000 years. If your looking for anything "jewish" to turn up in the NW then it would have to survive 2600 years in spite of wars, an Nahuatl invasion from the north and a spanish invasion from the sea, which spanish invasion purposefully tried to destroy any written material they coud find. They didnt understand what they were seeing and it was all devil worshipp as far as they were concerned. Newfoundland, as far as I know,was not nearly as dynamic part of the world. Sorry but the Beothuk were nothing like the Maya, Mixtecs etc. There was negotiation, trading and inter-marriage, as well as invasion and warfare.

WIth only 1000 years in a relatively unchanging part of the world, of course you'll find buttons, needles, long houses and coins. The beothuks didnt have these things, so they are obviosly norse. Problem is the nephites didnt have buttons or coins.

The nephites didnt leave anything

Tell me, how is it you now that San Lorenzo isnt the jaredite Lib and that El Mirador isnt Ammonihah? What would distinguish a nephite pottery shard from a "mayan" one? Its kinda like asking, what would seperate a republican southern baptist playstation from a catholic democrat playstation.

No horses,

no need to find the genus equs, anymore than we need to find a subaquatic species of pig in China, or sub aquatic horse in africa(hippopotamus)

no swords

The conquistadores described the macaquitl as a sword.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/pdf.php?fi...p;type=amJtcw==

no steel,

DCP says,

Making weapons of "steel" and "iron" is mentioned by the Nephites only during their first few generations (2 Ne. 5:15; Jarom 1:8; iron is mentioned only as a "precious" ornamental metal during the time of Mosiah 11::P. Just what these terms originally meant may not be clear. Jaredite "steel" and "iron" and other metals are mentioned twice but are not described (Ether 7:9; 10:23). The weapons of the common soldier were distinctly simpler: stones, clubs, spears, and the bow and arrow (e.g., Alma 49:18â??22).

no old world writing,

Why would you find any given that the OW writing was being passes on by only one lineage of prophet-priests that lived in an almost illiterate society.

1 Nephi 19:22-23

22 Now it came to pass that I, Nephi, did teach my brethren these things; and it came to pass that I did read many things to them, which were engraven upon the aplates of brass, that they might know concerning the doings of the Lord in other lands, among people of old.

23 And I did read many things unto them which were written in the abooks of Moses; but that I might more fully persuade them to believe in the Lord their Redeemer I did read unto them that which was written by the prophet bIsaiah; for I did cliken all scriptures unto us, that it might be for our dprofit and learning.

Mosiah 25: 5-7, 14

5 And it came to pass that Mosiah did read, and caused to be read, the records of Zeniff to his people; yea, he read the records of the people of Zeniff, from the time they aleft the land of Zarahemla until they breturned again.

6 And he also read the account of Alma and his brethren, and all their afflictions, from the time they left the land of Zarahemla until the time they returned again.

7 And now, when Mosiah had made an end of reading the records, his people who tarried in the land were struck with wonder and amazement.

â?¢ â?¢ â?¢

14 And now it came to pass that when Mosiah had made an end of speaking and reading to the people, he desired that Alma should also speak to the people.

no silk,

DCP says,

"Silk and fine-twined linen" are mentioned (e.g., Alma 1:29; Ether 10:24) along with common (cotton?) cloth. The "silk" is unlikely to have been produced from silkworms as in China, but similar fabrics were known, at least in Mesoamerica. For example, in Guatemala fiber from the wild pineapple plant, and among the Aztecs rabbit hair, served to make silklike fabrics. Although flax apparently was not known in America prior to the arrival of the Spaniards (linen was made from flax in the Old World), several vegetable-based fabrics with similar characteristics are well attested in ancient America (Update, Nov. 1988).

no elephants.

elepants are mention only during jaredite time and they are not vevn descibed.

We can now read the glyphs on their builds, and they speak of a people and ideas that have nothing to do with Christian or old world thought.
Again, which glyphs and which buildings? The only relevant glyphs and buildings are the ones from BoM times. Ill give you an example:

map_yax21-15.gif

According to the Briish Museum webpage, this image dates from Maya, Late Classic period (AD 600-900)

From Yaxchil

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While the Book of Mormon at times uses the term "Lamanite" with political and cultural connotations, it does so within the broader framework of lineal identification. The book doesn't disconnect the political and cultural from the lineal in the way many present-day LDS readers suggest.

For instance, among the Lamanites were Nephite dissenters, such as the Amalekites (sic, actually Amlicites) and Amulonites, and contrasted with them are the non-Nephite Lamanite, who were "actual descendants of Laman and Lemuel":

Alma 24:29

Now, among those who joined the people of the Lord, there were none who were Amalekites or Amulonites, or who were of the order of Nehor, but they were actual descendants of Laman and Lemuel.

Don

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I agree. I'd also like to see some kind of proof that things like barley and cement could possibly have existed in pre-Columbian times---things that clearly are of modern development and which Joseph Smith mistakenly inserted into the text.

Hallelujah! Paul, you got your wish. Barley has been found, pre-Columbian, in ruins attributed to Hohokam Native Americans.

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I agree. I'd also like to see some kind of proof that things like barley and cement could possibly have existed in pre-Columbian times---things that clearly are of modern development and which Joseph Smith mistakenly inserted into the text.

I dunno about barely. It might be a question of taxonomy. Kinda like corn in the bible. When I was a kid I assumed the Savior was eating maize.

Cement: Ever heard of Teotihuacan? It might not be what you find at home depot but it works.

teo-cement.jpg

teo-cement-sm.jpg

cement.jpg

I'd also be really interested in finding some ancient inscriptions on gold plates and buried in stone boxes in order to prop up Joseph Smith's ridiculous claim that such a thing was done anciently.

We lack examples in the new world, but I dont expect to find any given that the BoM plates where taken by the angel. BUt your right the gold plates in stone boxes is pretty ridiculous. Everyone knows ancient people didnt write on meta or use stone boxes. Sheesh!

http://romanplates.byu.edu/about/what_significance.html

stone%20box.gif

PYRGI.JPG

goldbook-lg.jpg

copperscroll-dss.jpg

Oh, and while we're adding to our wish list, I'd like to see some evidence that it was possible for a small, ancient vessel to make a transoceanic journey. Give me a break!

It doesnt have to be transoceanic in the columbian sense. Up the arabian peninsula, round India, jumping thru southeast asia, indonesia, thru micronesia . It would actualy be only a seies of small jumps from Island to Island and not one last leap. It would take along time though.

We could make the issue easier by demanding Mormons show us something in the Old World that matched up with the Book of Mormon claims---none of this wiggling with the "we're not sure just where it happened in the Americas" excuse.

enjoy:

http://farms.byu.edu/publications/booksmain.php

We know where the BoM claims these guys started (Jerusalem) and we know about where the BoM claims they ended up (SE Arabian peninsula), so Mormons' feet should be held to the fire to come up with something in at least that area of the world! Something like known trails, potential rivers and valleys, proper hunting conditions, existing tribal names, coastal oases, etc. would be nice. Come on, you Mormons, give us something!

http://farms.byu.edu/publications/bookscha...8&chapid=61

:P

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The following is from this website: http://www.restoredcovenant.org/Document.a...n+the+New+World

BARLEY DISCOVERED

Some very exciting and faith-rewarding news for Book of Mormon believers, the first discovery of barley in the New World, has been reported in the December issue of Science 83, pp. 28-37, under the title "Lost Ditch Archeology", by Daniel B. Adams, a graduate student in paleontology at the University of California, Berkely.

The barley was discovered in Hohokam deposits in Phoenix, Arizona as a result of excavations carried out by Arizona State University. The Hohokam Indians were present in the Phoenix area from about 300 B.C. to about A.D. 1450. They may have come from Mesoamerica since a number of Mesoamerican traits were present in their culture such as similar figurine styles, the use of cotton, their textile techniques, ball courts, platform mounds and copper bells. The Hohokam culture is famous in the Southwest for a number of things including the construction of a massive system of irrigation canals. Over 1000 miles of canals as large as 30 feet wide and seven feet deep were built by these industrious ancient people.

Adams states, Perhaps the most startling evidence of Hohokam agricultural sophistication came last year when salvage archeologists found preserved grains of what looks like domesticated le , the first ever found in the New World. Wild barleys have a fibrous husk over each grain. Domestic barley locks this. So does the Hohokam barley. "It's debatable whether this is genetic or some extreme skill in processing," says Vorsila Bohrer, an ethnobotanist at Eastern New Mexico University. Nearly half the samples from one site yielded barley. (page 32)

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Does this image displays anything remotely Christian?

No, and that is exactly my point. It doesnt and it was made 300-600 years after the BoM events. So it is practically useless in studying the BoM. Now, if you can find me something translatable from BoM times{(2100bc-500bc),(600bc-430ad)} then we can discuss.

Mormon8:10 And there are none that do know the true God save it be the disciples of Jesus*, who did tarry in the land until the wickedness of the people was so great that the Lord would not suffer them to remain with the people; and whether they be upon the face of the land no man knoweth.

In other words, by the 430's it was over and done with.

* this is a reference to the 3 immortals who were around in 33ad.

BoM is full of hints and evidences about Jesus. How come we do not see anything related to Christianity in any mesoamerican culture?

Hints? <_<:unsure::ph34r::angry:

Anyway, tell me what would be the mesoamerican version of the Jesus Fish? Would they use a cross? If they did use a cross(why they would is beyond me) and you found it, how would you know it was a christian thing and not a reference to the 4 cardinal points, or wind,water,fire and air?

An Eartshattering evidence of Jesus appearing in Nephites is not mentioned anywhere.

And that proves it didnt happen. of course :P

How can one have faith for things to appear when they don't exist in any shape or form last couple milenia?

I dont expect them to appear, you do.

We have plenty other evidences leading other cultures, it's just that BoM archeology is missing.

And what was the BoM culture? folks seem to be ignoring my OP.

A Nephite is:

1)anyone who is not a lamanite. Jacob 1:13

2)political affiliation, loyal to the Nephi dynasty,kinda like Saudi, as in ibn Saud. Jacob 1:14

3)believer in the religion taught by Nephi and his descendants, kinda like a Sunni vs Shia. 4 Nephi 1:37

4) a blood descendant of Nephi. 3 Nephi 5:10

A LAmanite is: anyone that is not nephite(Jacob 1:13) or an actual descendant of Laman and Lemuel.

NOw lets not forget

"Our knowledge of ancient Maya thought must represent only a tiny fraction of the whole picture, for of the thousands of books in which the full extent of their learning and ritual was recorded, only four have survived to modern times (as though all that posterity knew of ourselves were to be based upon three prayer books and Pilgrim's Progress)." (Michael D. Coe, The Maya, London: Thames and Hudson, 4th ed., 1987, p. 161.)

other cultures?

We barely know who these people are! Take the Olmecs. We dont even know what they called themselves.

The following is from this website: http://www.restoredcovenant.org/Document.a...n+the+New+World

BARLEY DISCOVERED

Some very exciting and faith-rewarding news for Book of Mormon believers, the first discovery of barley in the New World, has been reported in the December issue of Science 83, pp. 28-37, under the title "Lost Ditch Archeology", by Daniel B. Adams, a graduate student in paleontology at the University of California, Berkely.

The barley was discovered in Hohokam deposits in Phoenix, Arizona as a result of excavations carried out by Arizona State University. The Hohokam Indians were present in the Phoenix area from about 300 B.C. to about A.D. 1450. They may have come from Mesoamerica since a number of Mesoamerican traits were present in their culture such as similar figurine styles, the use of cotton, their textile techniques, ball courts, platform mounds and copper bells. The Hohokam culture is famous in the Southwest for a number of things including the construction of a massive system of irrigation canals. Over 1000 miles of canals as large as 30 feet wide and seven feet deep were built by these industrious ancient people.

Adams states, Perhaps the most startling evidence of Hohokam agricultural sophistication came last year when salvage archeologists found preserved grains of what looks like domesticated le , the first ever found in the New World. Wild barleys have a fibrous husk over each grain. Domestic barley locks this. So does the Hohokam barley. "It's debatable whether this is genetic or some extreme skill in processing," says Vorsila Bohrer, an ethnobotanist at Eastern New Mexico University. Nearly half the samples from one site yielded barley. (page 32)

Just think, if you would have wagered your soul on whether or not pre-columbians had barley, then you would have lost.

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While the Book of Mormon at times uses the term "Lamanite" with political and cultural connotations, it does so within the broader framework of lineal identification. The book doesn't disconnect the political and cultural from the lineal in the way many present-day LDS readers suggest.

For instance, among the Lamanites were Nephite dissenters, such as the Amalekites (sic, actually Amlicites) and Amulonites, and contrasted with them are the non-Nephite Lamanite, who were "actual descendants of Laman and Lemuel":

Don

If every Lamanite was an "actual descendant" why the need to emphasize the fact that these guys were actual descendants. It sound like a waste of plate. We also have examples of nephites becoming lamanites and vis a versa

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Joseph discovered an old Nephite "altar or tower" that stood near Spring Hill in Missouri. That's the only officially recognized "Nephite" artifact I know of.

Phaedrus

// In the same general area of Spring Hill, Joseph also discovered an altar of stones that was an built by Adam himself to offer sacrifices.

Adam was a Nephite?

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I dunno about barely. It might be a question of taxonomy. Kinda like corn in the bible. When I was a kid I assumed the Savior was eating maize.

I think Paul is well aware of these discoveries and was attempting to make a joke (I though it was funny, anyway. Sorry Paul... some folks around here are a little too-tightly wound).

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For starters, I would be happy with finding anything made of steel, or finding evidence of some of the animals that were in the book of Mormon (horse, ox, etc.).

Apparently you do not understand archeology as a science. You cannot go out and start looking for "something". You have to interpret what you have already found.

For example, you want to prove that the Huns rode horses, where do you go to find those horse fossels? I understand that there is no horse fossels for these Hun horses, so how do you find that physical proof that they rode horses?

It would also be nice if any of the many writings left by the ancients had anything whatsoever to do with the civilizations we read about in the BoM.

There are no written records from the BOM time period.

Just four hundred years after the supposedly last great battle at Cumorah, a small group of Norse explores landed in Newfoundland. They stayed no longer that a few years, then sailed off. The difference between this small handful of explorers and the massive iron aged civilization that the BoM talks about (you know, the one that spread over the face of all the land) is that these few visitors left undeniable evidence of there existence (Norse buttons, needles, a coin, etc.) and the Nephites left nothing.

Are you certain? Let us suppose that a jade necklance was discovered in an excavation. How do you prove that this was not possessed by a Nephite or Lamanite? What specifically identifies a Nephite or Lamanite artifact?

No horses, no swords, no steel, no smelting of metal of any kind, no old world writing, no silk,

and no elephants.

Swords and elephants (mastadons) have been found. Also horses but not from the BOM time period. See my comment above about Hun horses.

In case you are unaware, entire civilizations have disappeared without a trace.

What we do have is a lot of evidence from the real civilizations that lived in the Americas,

Yes, these were Nephite, Lamanite, as well as other civilizations. It is just an issue of identifying those artifacts.

and they have nothing what so ever to do with anything BoM related.

Thank you for sharing with us your personal opinion.

We can now read the glyphs on their builds, and they speak of a people and ideas that have nothing to do with Christian or old world thought.

Most of the people in the BOM were not Christian. Furthermore, how do you identify Christian artifacts? For example, is the symbol of a fish a Christian artifact? (yes, in the old world) How about a feathered serpent. (possibly so)

What precisely are you looking for?

I understand the difference between fact and opinion, and thanks for sharing your opinions.

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