How To Find Nephite Artifacts

[phaedrus ut]

Adam was a Nephite?

I'm sure you know, but I'll clarify just in case. Near Spring Hill aka Adam Oni-Ahman Joseph made multiple discoveries. One was a Nephite tower and the other was a pile of stones that originally was a altar of Adam.

Phaedrus

//Is Missouri part of the Tehuantepec limited geography?

[Loquacious Lurker]

Nephi said he wrote in what he called Reformed Egyptian, or he used Egyptian characters modified for ease of use in writing.

Right. I don't have a problem at all with that, as even the Egyptians developed a kind of short hand, called "Demotic", which was also found on the Rosetta Stone. (You probably already know that, so sorry for the repeat.) That Egyptian hierglyphs were cumbersome and needed simplification is a good argument for "Reformed Egyptian", and perhaps could have even referred to Demotic.

It has been suggested that the Nephites were the Priestly Class within the larger community. As such could well have used Reformed Egyptian only when writing their Scriptures, but used some other dialect or even language when speaking amongst themselves or with the other classes.

Right. But Hebrew would have been the lingua franca, no? After all, they were Jews, speaking their native Semitic tongue. Again, if you want to argue for a priestly class, that seems logical enough, but they would have had to practice modes of writing. At least two. Hebrew probably was the primary language. The BoM purportedly could have been written in either Hebrew or RE. Therefore, it follows that almost a thousand years on, these two languages were well known enough that people were entirely fluent in them. That indeed speaks for a class of scibes through the centuries. Who could have, should have, would have, left some kind of trace...right? We can find cuneiform receipts for grain sales from the lost civilization of Sumerians, Egyptian stele, even very basic Hebrew scratched into rocks...but not one single thing with Hebrew on it, at all, in a tract of land filled with these people?

This make sense to me as the Catholic liturgy was for many centuries in Latin, while every day speech was in whatever language they spoke.

IF, a big if, they had encountered a group of people who spoke a different language, they might have used that language for common parlance and kept Hebrew and RE for scriptorians. But if you and your immediate family landed on a desert isle, with no other inhabitants, and your native tongue was English, would you suddenly switch to speaking only French? No. Especially if you didn't know French.

Until the discovery of the Rosetta Stone the translation of Egyptian into understandable language was impossible. So I assume that some sort of Rosetta Stone would need to be discovered for this type of translation. Though have my doubts as one was ever made, let alone will be discovered. But who knows, one may turn up tomorrow.

I agree. But one would not need a Rosetta Stone if the language was Hebrew. Which should be at least 50% possible.

The interesting question is how Middle East artifacts, turn up in a book by a young very undereducated man of 1829 in rural New York?

That argument never made any sense to me. George Orwell, in his book 1984, wrote about talking boxes that resembled what we today call "televisions". Is he then to be hailed as a prophet?

Not necessarily, the writing on metal plates could well have been a single family's tradition. Thus passed from father to son. We have Western Traditions like this from before the forming of Guilds to the modern day practice of passing the family business to the son(s). So there would be few examples to begin with and even few if any remaining to unearth. But who knows me may unearth that room full of plates tomorrow.

Sure. The guild concept is entirely possible. But...come on. How many thousands upon thousands of these:

and not ANY at ALL of this...? :

Meanwhile, THAT is being found all the time in Bible lands. Couple that with lack of DNA evidence...and...well, the anti skeptical, quizzical stance becomes just a little more understandable, doesn't it?

If the poles melt I don't know how long they can tread water.

I hope for long enough so my dad can say, "SEE I TOLD YOU SO!!! I KNEW IT ALL ALONG!!'

[cdowis]

But Hebrew would have been the lingua franca, no? After all, they were Jews, speaking their native Semitic tongue.

Why? What language did the Jews speak at the time of Christ? What language did the Polish Jews speak?

You make assumptions as if they were fact.

Again, if you want to argue for a priestly class, that seems logical enough, but they would have had to practice modes of writing. At least two. Hebrew probably was the primary language. The BoM purportedly could have been written in either Hebrew or RE. Therefore, it follows that almost a thousand years on, these two languages were well known enough that people were entirely fluent in them.

Again, why should they be fluent? The NT was written in koine Greek. How many people are fluent in that language?

Do you understand that Hebrew would be the language of the scriptures, but not necessarily the venacular. Again, look at the Jews in europe, the Polish Jews, for example.

That indeed speaks for a class of scibes through the centuries. Who could have, should have, would have, left some kind of trace...right?

Of course. And tell us what happened to the written records from the BOM time period. Where are they? Do you know???

We can find cuneiform receipts for grain sales from the lost civilization of Sumerians, Egyptian stele, even very basic Hebrew scratched into rocks...but not one single thing with Hebrew on it, at all, in a tract of land filled with these people?

Again where are those written records from this time period. And why do you insist that the venacular was Hebrew when the BOM tells us that it was something else, that no other people knew their language.

IF, a big if, they had encountered a group of people who spoke a different language, they might have used that language for common parlance and kept Hebrew and RE for scriptorians. But if you and your immediate family landed on a desert isle, with no other inhabitants, and your native tongue was English, would you suddenly switch to speaking only French? No. Especially if you didn't know French.

(1) Another strong argument for the "others" when Lehi landed. (2) The Mulekites lost their knowledge of Hebrew, did they not?

snip

Meanwhile, THAT is being found all the time in Bible lands. Couple that with lack of DNA evidence...and...well, the anti skeptical, quizzical stance becomes just a little more understandable, doesn't it?

Mesoamerica is not the Biblical lands. You are comparing apples to oranges.

[SquarePeg48]

I'd also be really interested in finding some ancient inscriptions on gold plates and buried in stone boxes in order to prop up Joseph Smith's ridiculous claim that such a thing was done anciently.

I am no expert, but I might throw in here a "legend" from my ex's family (who are Cherokee descent from West Virginia). They tell of a people coming from the south many centuries ago bringing with them gold plates on which was recorded their "alphabet". The Cherokee legend is that this is the origin of the alphabet used by the Cherokee, attributed to Seneca. In reality, the story goes, this alphabet was used for a very long time to communicate among the people before Seneca came along and used the alphabet in a more systematic way. The plates, it is claimed, were hidden from the whites in a cave somewhere in the Appalachians and have been "lost".

[Severian]

The Hohokam culture is famous in the Southwest for a number of things including the construction of a massive system of irrigation canals. Over 1000 miles of canals as large as 30 feet wide and seven feet deep were built by these industrious ancient people.

Then all that would be needed in the deserts of Arizona would be a lot of rain to go with this large canal system.

[structurecop]

I am no expert, but I might throw in here a "legend" from my ex's family (who are Cherokee descent from West Virginia). They tell of a people coming from the south many centuries ago bringing with them gold plates on which was recorded their "alphabet". The Cherokee legend is that this is the origin of the alphabet used by the Cherokee, attributed to Seneca. In reality, the story goes, this alphabet was used for a very long time to communicate among the people before Seneca came along and used the alphabet in a more systematic way. The plates, it is claimed, were hidden from the whites in a cave somewhere in the Appalachians and have been "lost".

I heard the same thing from Murray Rawson.

[Loquacious Lurker]

Hi, CDowis.

Why? What language did the Jews speak at the time of Christ? What language did the Polish Jews speak?

Are you implying by your question that Lehi and his family spoke some other language? The time of Christ has NOTHING to do with it. Nor do polish Jews. Lehi was claimed to be a personage from 600 BCE.

Here's how I see it.

1. Lehi and family, native Hebrew speakers, land in America.

2. They also know how to write in "Reformed Egyptian", whatever that is.

3. The land is empty. They go forth and multiply for many generations. Now what language are they going to teach their children? Danish?

If the BoM could have been written in Hebrew, as the writer(s) claimed then, CDowis, they (Nephites) must have been able to speak Hebrew, right?

You make assumptions as if they were fact.

I'm making the educated guess that, 1. if they could write Hebrew, 2. were Jews, and 3. were from Jerusalem, then they could probably speak Hebrew. I guess you see that as taking quite a leap.

Again, why should they be fluent? The NT was written in koine Greek. How many people are fluent in that language?

BECAUSE of this scripture. Why does the atheist ex-mormon non-believer have to point out passages of YOUR scriptures?

Mormon 9:32-33

32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.

33And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.

It says it right there -- they COULD have written in Hebrew.

Do you understand that Hebrew would be the language of the scriptures, but not necessarily the venacular. Again, look at the Jews in europe, the Polish Jews, for example.

So? Even if it was an altered, evolved kind of Hebrew, it was still HEBREW, Semitcally-based. NOT Mayan or Olmec or some other entirely unrelated language.

Of course. And tell us what happened to the written records from the BOM time period. Where are they? Do you know???

They were called "The Golden Plates" and they lay hidden deep in the mountainside (in at least three different locations, according to Limited Geography Theory), until God found one faithful, in whom he could confide. Then they were taken up into heaven by Moroni.

But what we KNOW, if Mormon is to be believed, is that they were written in Reformed Egyptian, and COULD have been written in Hebrew.

Again where are those written records from this time period. And why do you insist that the venacular was Hebrew when the BOM tells us that it was something else, that no other people knew their language.

I said it was POSSIBLE that the vernacular was something else *IF* there were other people living there when Lehi and family landed, and they used that new language. BUT, if Lehi and family landed and NO ONE ELSE WAS AROUND, why would they make up an entirely new language to speak? Would you? Or would you continue to speak English?

IF Mormon could claim to be able to write in Hebrew, in that scripture above, then -- drum roll -- he must have known Hebrew!

(1) Another strong argument for the "others" when Lehi landed. (2) The Mulekites lost their knowledge of Hebrew, did they not?

Then how did Mormon learn it many many years later?

Mesoamerica is not the Biblical lands. You are comparing apples to oranges.

I know I am. Biblical lands are called that, because of the corroborating archaeological evidence. There is none, for so-called "Book of Mormon Lands", and therefore it is indeed "apples and oranges".

[cksalmon]

I could be reading him incorrectly, but I'm fairly confident that Paul (page one) was being facetious.

Best.

CKS

[structurecop]

I could be reading him incorrectly, but I'm fairly confident that Paul (page one) was being facetious.

Best.

CKS

I made the same observation up the page.

[cksalmon]

I made the same observation up the page.

Well, great minds...and all that.

CKS

[structurecop]

Well, great minds...and all that.

CKS

Indeed. Perhaps we should use our powers for good and not evil...

Nah.

[Severian]

From Her Amun's post, I have noticed a similarity between the topmost character in profile and this profile of Joseph Smith. I ask you to consider whether it is just mere coincidence of was in some was foreseen.

What sayest thou?

[Olavarria]

Here's how I see it.

1. Lehi and family, native Hebrew speakers, land in America.

ok

2. They also know how to write in "Reformed Egyptian", whatever that is.

most likely egyptian characters used to write hebrew.

3. The land is empty. They go forth and multiply for many generations. Now what language are they going to teach their children? Danish?

Who said the land was empty?

It says it right there -- they COULD have written in Hebrew.

So? Even if it was an altered, evolved kind of Hebrew, it was still HEBREW, Semitcally-based. NOT Mayan or Olmec or some other entirely unrelated language.

They were called "The Golden Plates" and they lay hidden deep in the mountainside (in at least three different locations, according to Limited Geography Theory), until God found one faithful, in whom he could confide. Then they were taken up into heaven by Moroni.

But what we KNOW, if Mormon is to be believed, is that they were written in Reformed Egyptian, and COULD have been written in Hebrew.

I said it was POSSIBLE that the vernacular was something else *IF* there were other people living there when Lehi and family landed, and they used that new language. BUT, if Lehi and family landed and NO ONE ELSE WAS AROUND, why would they make up an entirely new language to speak? Would you? Or would you continue to speak English?

The fact is, the continant wasnt empty, that is a fact. A family of 13 would have been swamped genetically, linguistically and religiosly(which helps explain all the dissent against the prophets). Ill give you an example. My ancestors on my dads side came from the basque provinces in SPain. My last name is Olavarria(very basque name). However, my great great grand pappy landed in Puerto Rico. Basques also have virtually no B blood type (nor the related AB group). Basques were noted as having the highest global apportion of Rh- blood type (35% phenotypically, 60% genetically). Yet my blood is B-. I dont speak basque at all. I speak English, Spanish and Chinese. Im not even catholic. Why? Because everyother ethnic part of me is puerto rican, my nationality: american. Yet, my last name is Olavarria and strangly I do "feel" some kind of connection to the basque culture and identity, but dont ask me to play Jai Alai. Now multiply that by 10 and we might get a chance to see how that affected the nephites.

Biblical lands are called that, because of the corroborating archaeological evidence. There is none, for so-called "Book of Mormon Lands", and therefore it is indeed "apples and oranges".

You also dont have Spaniards invading the bible lands and destroying the documentation that allows for such identification.

If someone wanted to they could literally sit next to you and tell you the whole history of Jerusalem from 600bc to present day. WHy? Documentation. However , you cant say the same thing about Teotihuacan. We dont even know what the original inhabitants called it. All we have is the Aztec name added hundreds of years after its fall. The earliest buildings at Teotihuac

[Olavarria]

From Her Amun's post, I have noticed a similarity between the topmost character in profile and this profile of Joseph Smith. I ask you to consider whether it is just mere coincidence of was in some was foreseen.

What sayest thou?

hmmmm, josephites have big noses?

[charity]

But Hebrew would have been the lingua franca, no? After all, they were Jews, speaking their native Semitic tongue.

Go to this thread for a fascinating treatment of this subject. Nephi and his group may have actually spoken Egyptian as their native language. Check it out, lurker.

Nephite Geneology

Did Nephi Consider himself to be a Jew?

[Olavarria]

When I went to UCLA, I knew a few jews and none of them spoke hebrew in the street.

I think the Nephites spoke something like Zoque, Totonaco or maybe an Uto Aztecan language. reformed egyptian(egyptian characters for writing hebrew) was to them what latin is to Irish Catholics.

[russianwolfe]

These Norse settlements, were they found under several Indian settlements and under a couple of white settlements? That is the case in Central America. Most of the ruins that we have uncovered are from periods later than the Nephites. And to get at the Nephite era would require digging under the ones we know about. And nobody really wants to explore under the ruins we know about on the chance that we might find something. So your claims for not finding Nephites evidence has good reason. And the Norse settlements don't really compare well with the Nephites because the history of the Norse settlement was relativily quiet compared to Central America.

Marvin

For starters, I would be happy with finding anything made of steel, or finding evidence of some of the animals that were in the book of Mormon (horse, ox, etc.). It would also be nice if any of the many writings left by the ancients had anything whatsoever to do with the civilizations we read about in the BoM.

Just four hundred years after the supposedly last great battle at Cumorah, a small group of Norse explores landed in Newfoundland. They stayed no longer that a few years, then sailed off. The difference between this small handful of explorers and the massive iron aged civilization that the BoM talks about (you know, the one that spread over the face of all the land) is that these few visitors left undeniable evidence of there existence (Norse buttons, needles, a coin, etc.) and the Nephites left nothing. No horses, no swords, no steel, no smelting of metal of any kind, no old world writing, no silk, and no elephants.

What we do have is a lot of evidence from the real civilizations that lived in the Americas, and they have nothing what so ever to do with anything BoM related. We can now read the glyphs on their builds, and they speak of a people and ideas that have nothing to do with Christian or old world thought.

[poulsenll]

Lehi and his family were NOT Jews. They were from the tribe of Manasseh

Alma 10: 3

3 And Aminadi was a descendant of Nephi, who was the son of Lehi, who came out of the land of Jerusalem, who was a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son of bJoseph who was sold into Egypt by the hands of his brethren.

There is no statement in the BofM about the lineage of either Ishmael, the wivees of Lehi and Ishmael or Zoram.

Manasseh's father was Joseph and his mother was an Egytian princess. Joseph and his family remained in Egypt and his descendents probably spoke the mother's tongue.

We do find that as late as Mosiah they still considered their mother language to be Egyptian.

1 Ne. 1: 2

2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.

The continuous assumption by both Mormons and contras that the Nephites were Jewish is not supported by the actual text of the BofM. Lehi's family lived in the land of Jerusalem and probably spoke Hebrew but their is no evidence for it other than the statement by Mormon that they knew how to write in the Hebrew alphabet. I know how to write in the Latin alphabet but that does not mean that I speak Latin. Spanish, yes but not Latin.

Larry P

[russianwolfe]

Are you aware of the almost complete devastation that the Spaniards wrot upon the natives? Any thing gold was melted down and sent to Spain. And, as Cortez wrote, '... knowing that they were lies of the devil, we burned them'; so much for the paper items. When the Catholic missionaries were not getting enough converts, they asked the military to step in and slaughter a few hundred natives, to convince the others to convert. See the history of Chich

[ACW]

We probably have many "Nephite" artifacts already. We just don't know that they are Nephite.

ACW:

We know what happened to the dinosaurs. We call them birds.

So my cats catch dinosaurs???

[dbschroeder]

Her Amun is my new hero.

[Olavarria]

Her Amun is my new hero.

Spider-Mun, Spider Mun, da da di ti doe, SPider mun

thanks

[russianwolfe]

I think Paul is well aware of these discoveries and was attempting to make a joke (I though it was funny, anyway. Sorry Paul... some folks around here are a little too-tightly wound).

When I was on my mission in Scotland, I was told that oats were corn!!! And the woman telling me this, turned and got everyone to agree with her. When it was growing in the field, it was corn, and when it was ready to put on the table it was oatmeal. Kind like, when it walks and squeals it is a pig but when you serve it at dinner they call it pork. There are a few more examples like this but I dont have the memory I use to.

Marvin

[poulsenll]

I have alawas heard the accusation that nothing "nephite" has been found in the ruins. That begs the questian, what is a nephite? What traits or background would a person need in order to be called a nephite? What traits would someone have in order to disqualify him as such? Once you define what a nephite is, then you would ask, "what would these people leave behind, and how would we recognize it?"

1)anyone who is not a lamanite. Jacob 1:13

2)political affiliation, loyal to the Nephi dynasty,kinda like Saudi, as in ibn Saud. Jacob 1:14

3)believer in the religion taught by Nephi and his descendants, kinda like a Sunni vs Shia. 4 Nephi 1:37

4) a blood descendant of Nephi. 3 Nephi 5:10

Given these definitions FROM THE BOM itself, what traces should we expect to find in the ruins or DNA? How would we recognize them? With two of these definitions, even DCP would be considered a Nephite!

Let us see.

First let us look at an old testament symbol for the Messiah.

Num. 21: 9

9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Here we see a serpent of brass raised on a pole before the people as a symbol of the Savior as attested to in the New testament

John 3: 14

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the bSon of man be lifted up:

Turning to the Book of Mormon we find this symbolism more fully explained.

2 Ne. 25: 20

20 And now, my brethren, I have spoken plainly that ye cannot err. And as the Lord God liveth that brought Israel up out of the land of Egypt, and gave unto Moses power that he should heal the nations after they had been bitten by the poisonous serpents, if they would cast their eyes unto the serpent which he did raise up before them, and also gave him power that he should smite the rock and the water should come forth; yea, behold I say unto you, that as these things are true, and as the Lord God liveth, there is none other name given under heaven save it be this Jesus Christ, of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved.

Hel. 8: 14-15

14 Yea, did he not bear record that the Son of God should come? And as he lifted up the brazen serpent in the wilderness, even so shall he be lifted up who should come.

15 And as many as should look upon that serpent should live, even so as many as should look upon the Son of God with faith, having a contrite spirit, might live, even unto that life which is eternal.

1 Ne. 17: 41

41 And he did straiten them in the wilderness with his rod; for they ahardened their hearts, even as ye have; and the Lord straitened them because of their iniquity. He sent fiery flying serpents among them; and after they were bitten he prepared a way that they might be healed; and the labor which they had to perform was to look; and because of the simpleness of the way, or the easiness of it, there were many who perished.

So we find the Nephites brought this symbolism into the New World with them. Fiery flying serpents to bite and chastise and a serpent raised for them to look on to be saved.

Now let us look at Mesoamerica. Do we find Flying serpents in archeological settings. Oh yes all over the place from BCE to the time of the Spanish conquest. The feathered serpent(flying serpent) raised upon walls, built into pyramids and revered as a god.

Ahh but you will say that this was a pagan symbol. How do you know that it was always so or that all instances of its appearance in the archeological record are not Nephite.. Satan and men love to take what were once sacred symbols and paganize and change there meaning.

The point is, you asked for an archeological artifact that relates to the Nephite culture. This is surely one whether you are willing to recognize it or not.

It fits with the extant culture in Judea at the time of the flight and is well documented as a part of the Nephite culture in the BofM.

Larry P

[Loquacious Lurker]

Lehi and his family were NOT Jews. They were from the tribe of Manasseh

Wow. Unreal.

Okay. The tribe of Manasseh were not Jews. That means that the Abrahamic covenant did not in any way apply to them, and they were not of God's Chosen people. They were no different than Gentiles.

Is that what you are saying...?

Of course, you realize, that the entire Jewish world does not agree with you. Because Manasseh was the son of Joseph, who was the son of Jacob, with whom God made a covenant to establish the people and nation of Israel. Jacob's father was Isaac, and Isaac's father was Abraham, whom God promised his seed would fill the entire earth, and with whom he establish his covenant -- called the "Abrahamic covenant".

The Blessing of Jacob, in Genesis 49, according to you, does not apply to Manasseh? Manasseh is not part of the Abrahamic covenant?

Whatever. The Bible disagrees with you.

The continuous assumption by both Mormons and contras that the Nephites were Jewish is not supported by the actual text of the BofM.

Egyptians are of Semitic stock, as are Arabs, as are Hebrews.

Lehi's family lived in the land of Jerusalem and probably spoke Hebrew but their is no evidence for it other than the statement by Mormon that they knew how to write in the Hebrew alphabet.

Hey, if you want to question the veracity of Mormon's statement, be my guest. I do it all the time.

I know how to write in the Latin alphabet but that does not mean that I speak Latin.

That's right. Just because you can write random Latin alphabetic characters does not mean that you could write your family history in Latin.

But that's not what Mormon said, is it? He didn't say, "I can write random Hebrew characters." No. He claimed, "I could have written this entire history in Hebrew, had I the space to do it in." That means, in order to write a history, he would have had to understand the syntax and verbiage of Hebrew well enough in order to portray the history of his people reliably. To do that, one must have an excellent command of a language. There is nothing in Mormon's statement that makes me think he lacked confidence in writing in that language.

In order to give Lehi no ties to Hebrew blood whatsoever, you have single-handedly tossed Manasseh out of the Jacobic and Abrahamic covenants, making Manasseh no better than the other Gentile peoples, with whom God made no covenants. Well done! I'd say that was a productive night's work. Of course, you cannot in any way back this up using scripture, nor can you claim in any way that Manasseh is then worthy of partaking in either the Abrahamic or Jacobic covenants.

According to the Bible blessing (which you have successfully annihilated by unmaking Manasseh a Jew), Joseph, Manasseh's father, is a "fruitful bough" and all the blessings of his progenitors "unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills shall be on the head of Joseph." Yeah. Joseph gets the lion's share of the blessing. And he passes it on to his sons.

Not in the MA&D version of the story, though.