Women And The Priesthood

[Lachoneus]

On the PBS documentary, Margaret Toscano claimed that in 1843 that Joseph Smith was considering giving the priesthood to women. I find this to be absolutely ludicrous and it flies in the face of everything we know about the priesthood and about the temple rites. Still, I'm not familiar with her work or in what sense women would have taken part in the priesthood.

Anyone here familiar with her work?

Yes. You can read one of her essays, "Put on Your Strength O Daughters of Zion: Claiming Priesthood and Knowing the Mother," here.

[wenglund]

Then why "ordained and set apart under the hand of Joseph Smith the Prophet to administer to the sick and comfort the sorrowful." .. If any women can give a blessing?

This is like asking: "If every member is a missionary, then why are certain members ordained and set apart as missionaries?"

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[JAHS]

". . . The society should move according to the ancient Priesthood. . . . [i will] make of this [Relief] Society a kingdom of priests as in Enoch's day--as in Paul's day."

Notice the word [Relief] was not actually a part of the sentence; it is implied. From what I understand Joseph Smith was refering to the Church when he said "Society". Later the word "Society" in this quote was changed to "Church" to clarify the meaning of the statement so there would be no confusion as to what organization he was talking about.

Joseph Smith had, on other occasions, used the word "Society" when talking about the Church in general(D&C 134:9-10, History of the Church Vol. IV)

If he was talking about the Relief Society specifically he would have said he was "going to make this Society a kingdom of priestesses"(instead of priests).

[smac97]

Yes. You can read one of her essays, "Put on Your Strength O Daughters of Zion: Claiming Priesthood and Knowing the Mother," here.

Readers may also be interest in chapter 17 of this book, which is titled "Mormon Women Have Had the Priesthood Since 1843."

-Smac

[koakaipo]

JAHS-there are actually direct statements from different leaders and notables referring specifically to women receiving the priesthood and references to Abraham sealing upon his daughters the priesthood.

AGain though, I think it's important to keep it in context to the time, and how we view priesthood is different today.

[Olavarria]

On the PBS documentary, Margaret Toscano claimed that in 1843 that Joseph Smith was considering giving the priesthood to women. I find this to be absolutely ludicrous and it flies in the face of everything we know about the priesthood and about the temple rites. Still, I'm not familiar with her work or in what sense women would have taken part in the priesthood.

Anyone here familiar with her work?

Im not familiar with her claim BUT it is possible. I wouldnt put it past the Prophet to think of something like that. But here is the rub, even if it were true that he planned to, or wanted to, give the priesthood to women so what? This is not the Smith family church or the Church of Joseph SMith. It is the Church of Jesus Christ and He hs not seen fit to do such a thing.

[Hammer]

Priesthood is held in authority through men, but women HOLD the priesthood in their hands, arms, and heart. They are tne neck that turns the head. Now that is power.

[e=mc2]

Hugh Nibley in his talk on Priesthood said that it is used for two things ........ commanding the spirits, and the elements. One cannot use it to command people. That's why so very, VERY many in the church who love to strut their stuff about it, aren't really all that Priesthoodly...... I have this on one of my "Simplifying Nibley" podcasts.

[TJane]

I remember hearing many, many years ago, that a wife could give a priesthood blessing through her husband's priesthood, but that was a long time ago and I believe that that is not proper these days.

I have heard that same thing.

Once, when my then-active husband was out of town, one of my dds got sick in the middle of the night, couldn't get comfortable and I couldn't get my home teachers on the phone. So I just sat with her, told her that her dad had the priesthood and if he were here, he'd bless her. And that, as his wife, I could call his priesthood power to bless her until he got home. She said she believed me so that's what we prayed ( I didn't give her the blessing per se, just prayed that she'd be blessed through my dh's priesthood). She immediately settled down, her fever got lower and she fell asleep.

I know, could be coincidence. But I had sat with her for a couple of hours, trying everything else. This worked.

Jane

I also remember a General Women's Conference where Pres. Hinckley said something to the effect of "We don't currently give the priesthood to women. If Christ decides differently, He'll let us know." I found the quote once, but it's not on this computer. I'll see if I can find it in one of my backups.

[e=mc2]

And President Hinckley is correct, "WE" don't give priesthood to women.....or men, Christ does, and that's why when anyone aspires to it or misuses it as a control or prestige and status, the D&C says Amen to the priesthood of that person. Men have never gotten to decide who gets it, the power always comes from Christ, and I am more than sure he ***knows*** when it is being used properly, since he turns on and off its power. It simply can't be faked. There is no image and impression to make for others to see when it comes to the Priesthood, namely "God's power." It's His ad He controls the switch........

Thank you for sharng your wonderful story....

[Brian's Mom]

Brian's Mom,

A woman can give Blessings of Comfort, Blessings to Heal, they can give any blessing that a person would want to give. She can't use the Priesthood because she doesn't hold it. She does this by faith.

I never said otherwise.

This is the gist of what I read. Emma was trying to usurp authority as RS Pres ( she did hold RS Courts and tried to sanction sisters in Nauvoo) and this was the reason the RS was disbanded in 1844. From what I've read, this bunched Emma's corsett. She was finally the "BOSS" and Joseph took this away.

CFR. This type of speculation greatly concerns me. It shows a lack of understanding of Emma's great commitment and sacrifices to Joseph and the church. I remember growing up how Emma was always mentioned as the love of Joseph's life, but then there was always this shadowy sense that we couldn't talk about her beyond that.

In my research I've discovered how unfair it was for people, like you, to disparage her. Her trials were great--everything Joseph went through she was there as well, suffering along with him. She was an integral part of the creation of the church and should be honored, not villified. I have seen the LDS Church come around and praise and honor her in the past few years and I've been glad to see it.

This is how Ms Toscano strikes me, she wanted to be the "BOSS" couldn't be. My wife is the RS Pres in the Branch in which we live. She was set apart with a similar blessing as Emma.

I think part of what Ms toscano was reading was the reaction to the 2nd washings and annointings. Women were refered to as Priestesses after they had been called up. This was speaking in the future glories, not on earth.

How she "strikes" you is meaningless. What you "think" is meaningless. Read her writings, then form an opinion.

Mom

[MJNSW]

I never said otherwise.

CFR. This type of speculation greatly concerns me. It shows a lack of understanding of Emma's great commitment and sacrifices to Joseph and the church. I remember growing up how Emma was always mentioned as the love of Joseph's life, but then there was always this shadowy sense that we couldn't talk about her beyond that.

In my research I've discovered how unfair it was for people, like you, to disparage her. Her trials were great--everything Joseph went through she was there as well, suffering along with him. She was an integral part of the creation of the church and should be honored, not villified. I have seen the LDS Church come around and praise and honor her in the past few years and I've been glad to see it.

How she "strikes" you is meaningless. What you "think" is meaningless. Read her writings, then form an opinion.

Mom

Beautifully said!

Can you pm me some of her writings... or references please? I want to read them!

[Brian's Mom]

Notice the word [Relief] was not actually a part of the sentence; it is implied. From what I understand Joseph Smith was refering to the Church when he said "Society". Later the word "Society" in this quote was changed to "Church" to clarify the meaning of the statement so there would be no confusion as to what organization he was talking about.

You are wrong. I included the word "Relief" for clarification, not the church, so you are either confused in your research or making it up to confirm your bias.

Additionally, Joseph was speaking to the women during the third meeting of the Relief Society while it was still deciding organizational issues.

I'll repeat the quote below:

". . . The society should move according to the ancient Priesthood. . . . [i will] make of this [Relief] Society a kingdom of priests as in Enoch's days--as in Paul's day."

Joseph Smith had, on other occasions, used the word "Society" when talking about the Church in general(D&C 134:9-10, History of the Church Vol. IV)

This is true.

If he was talking about the Relief Society specifically he would have said he was "going to make this Society a kingdom of priestesses"(instead of priests).

Perhaps another time he would have, but in this instance, he did not.

Mom

[Tarski]

On the PBS documentary, Margaret Toscano claimed that in 1843 that Joseph Smith was considering giving the priesthood to women. I find this to be absolutely ludicrous and it flies in the face of everything we know about the priesthood and about the temple rites.

I can't quite figure out what is so absolutely ludicrous about it based on "what we know about the priesthood and about the temple rites".

Since you can't talk about temple rites (and I thought about that too) please tell me what it is about priesthood per se that makes it impossible that women should have it?

[e=mc2]

I agree with Tarski........A BLINKIN MIRACLE I TELLS YA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is nothing ludicrous about women having the Priesthood. Maxine Hanks (a dear friend of mine, we get together several times a year for lunch and good talks and times) gave me a copy of her book "Women and Authority," for which she became one of the September 6 famous ex communicants in the early 1990's, wherein D. Michael Quinn has an article showing that women have always had the Priesthood. A very interesting read. Margaret Toscano also has a contribution in it.

[Bernard Gui]

Then why "ordained and set apart under the hand of Joseph Smith the Prophet to administer to the sick and comfort the sorrowful." .. If any women can give a blessing?

Why do assume that "administer" means the same thing as giving a priesthood blessing?

ADMIN'ISTER, v.t. [L. administro, of ad and ministro, to serve or manage. See Minister.]

1. To act as minister or chief agent, in managing public affairs, under laws or a constitution of government, as a king, president, or other supreme officer. it is used also of absolute monarchs, who rule not in subordination; but is more strictly applicable to limited monarchs and other supreme executive officers, and to governors, vice-roys, judges and the like, who are under the authority of laws. A king or a president administers the government or laws, when he executes them or carries them into effect. A judge administers the laws, when he applies them to particular cases or persons. In short, to administer is to direct the execution or application of laws.

2. To dispense, as to administer justice or the sacrament.

3. To afford, give or furnish; as, to administer relief, that is, to act as the agent. To administer medicine is to direct and cause it to be taken.

4. To give, as an oath; to cause to swear according to law.

ADMIN'ISTER, v.i.

1. To contribute; to bring aid or supplies; to add something; as, a shade administers to our comfort.

2. To perform the office of administrator; as, A administers upon the estate of B.

Bernard

[Hammer]

I agree with Tarski........A BLINKIN MIRACLE I TELLS YA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is nothing ludicrous about women having the Priesthood. Maxine Hanks (a dear friend of mine, we get together several times a year for lunch and good talks and times) gave me a copy of her book "Women and Authority," for which she became one of the September 6 famous ex communicants in the early 1990's, wherein D. Michael Quinn has an article showing that women have always had the Priesthood. A very interesting read. Margaret Toscano also has a contribution in it.

I agree.

[Lachoneus]

Notice the word [Relief] was not actually a part of the sentence; it is implied. From what I understand Joseph Smith was refering to the Church when he said "Society". Later the word "Society" in this quote was changed to "Church" to clarify the meaning of the statement so there would be no confusion as to what organization he was talking about.

Joseph Smith had, on other occasions, used the word "Society" when talking about the Church in general(D&C 134:9-10, History of the Church Vol. IV)

If he was talking about the Relief Society specifically he would have said he was "going to make this Society a kingdom of priestesses"(instead of priests).

The full Minutes from which the quoted sentence was taken reads as follows:

Nauvoo Relief Society Minutes

Pres. Joseph Smith aroseâ??spoke of the organization of the society. Said he was deeply interested that it might be built up to the Most High in an acceptable mannerâ??that its rules must be observedâ??that none should be received into the society but those who were worthy. Proposed that the society go into a close examination of every candidateâ??that they were going too fastâ??that the society should grow up by degrees; should commence with a few individualsâ??thus have a select society of the virtuous, and those who will walk circumspectly. Commended them for their zeal but said some times their zeal was not according to knowledge. One principal object of the institution was to purge out iniquityâ??said they must be extremely careful in all their examinations or the consequences would be serious. Said all difficulties which might and would cross our way must be surmounted, though the soul be tried, the heart faint, and hands hang downâ??must not retrace our steps. That there must be decision of character aside from sympathy. That when instructed we must obey that voice, observe the constitution, that the blessings of heaven may rest down upon us. All must act in concert or nothing can be done, that the society should move according to the ancient Priesthood, hence there should be a select society, separate from all the evils of the world, choice, virtuous and holy. Said he was going to make of this society a kingdom of priests as in Enoch's dayâ??as in Paul's dayâ??that it is the privilege of each member to live long and enjoy health. Pres. Smith proposed that the brethren withdraw that the society might proceed to businessâ??that those wishing to join might have their names presented at the next meeting.

(Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith: The Contemporary Accounts of the Nauvoo Discourses of the Prophet Joseph 110 (1980)

Is the "select society" the same as "the society"? Is "this society" which is to be a kingdom of priests (not priestesses) the same as the "select society"? We must remember that these are Minutes, not a complete transcript of what the Prophet said. Much here is subject to interpretation.

For example, we might want to ask ourselves how Enoch and Paul were involved with "a kingdom of priests." The Prophet says that he is going "to make of this society a kingdom of priests as in Enoch's day -- as in Paul's day." Were the "kingdom of priests" in the days of Enoch and Paul composed of women? Did Paul actually ordain women to the priesthood and at the same time suggest that they keep quiet in Church? These considerations (among others) and the Prophet's reference to a "kingdom of priests" and not of priestesses makes me think that the Prophet did not intend to confer the priesthood on women. Nor have I read anything in the writings of Margaret Toscano or anyone else that makes me think otherwise.

[Brian's Mom]

The full Minutes from which the quoted sentence was taken reads as follows: (Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith: The Contemporary Accounts of the Nauvoo Discourses of the Prophet Joseph 110 (1980)

Thank you for providing the quote in its entirety. It was very informative.

Mom

[auteur55]

Anyone remember the Packer talk a few conferences back, where he warns the members about following dead prophets instead of living ones. I think that applies here.

It seems silly to reach back in time and pluck statements from old prophets and use them to demand today's church change practices. A current prophet trumps an older one any day of the week. I guess this is hard for some to understand.

[Hammer]

Anyone remember the Packer talk a few conferences back, where he warns the members about following dead prophets instead of living ones. I think that applies here.

It seems silly to reach back in time and pluck statements from old prophets and use them to demand today's church change practices. A current prophet trumps an older one any day of the week. I guess this is hard for some to understand.

Otherwise, why have living prophets?

[Deborah]

Whether women once held the Priesthood or will do so some day does not matter. The point is today in the church women do not hold the Priesthood in the same manner as the men; but they can act under it's authority and bless and ordain according to that authority. Regardless women in the church wield great authority and power even without holding the Priesthood. Ask any Bishop.

Did Toscano really think she was going to get the Brethern to see the "light" as she sees it? Does she not understand that she does not have authority over them, and therefore was overstepping her bounds by trying to persuade others to see her doctrinal view. She could have voiced her opinion all she wanted to her friends and family; she could even write a book outlining the history of women and priesthood. But once she starts preaching as doctrine and trying to get the leaders of the church to change their minds she has gone too far. One thing that I have learned, particularly in the temple, is that authority follows a line and even God does not usurp the authority he has given another. If that authority is abused he may replace that person, but he will allow those he has so ordained to do according to the authority he has given them. Each of us has authority over our sphere of responsibility but we do not have authority for those in a another sphere of responsibility.

[koakaipo]

Lachoneus: Just thought I'd mention I don't think it was so much that Joseph Smith was thinking about conferring the priesthood on women so much as they had a more fluid way of seeing how people were endowed with the priesthood then we do today. Interestingly enough, we tend to have more references from Brigham Young on this issue than Joseph Smith. I don't think it mirrors how we see men endowed with priesthood today, but it does seem to infer a different way of viewing women's endowments to that power in some capacity.

1) biblical ties back to female inclusion of priesthood in some capacity

Joseph's uncle John Smith, who spent months with Joseph personally getting instruction from his side in matters of the understanding, gave patriarchal blessings to women that make such associations:

a)In his blessing to Caroline Cottam in Mar 1853, he referred to the â??Priesthood which Abraham sealed upon his daughters.â? (John Smith patriarchal blessing to Caroline Cottam, 26 Mar 1853, LDS archives)

b)In his blessing to Mary Bean in May of 1853, he asserted, "â??I seal upon you all the blessings of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and all the Priesthood that was sealed upon the daughters of Jacob in the land of Egyptâ?¦â?(John Smith blessing to Elizabeth Bean, 1 May 1853, Goerge Washington Bean journal, Book 1, 79-80, Archives, Lee Library, BYU)

c) In his blesssing to Louisa jackson, he asserted that â??thou art of the blood of Abraham through the loins of Manasseh & lawful heir to the Priesthood,â??(John Smith patriarchal blessing to Louisa C Jackson, 6 Feb 1844, RLDS archives).

Bathsheba W Bigler Smith, who was a plural wife of Joseph Smith too, is often quoted here in terms of her associating priesthood and women back to the biblical times:

"I have always been pleased that I had my endowments when the Prophet livedâ?¦he gave us everything, every order of the priesthoodâ?¦.he said he had given the sisters instructions that they could administer to the sick and he wanted to make us, as the women in Paulâ??s day, â??a Kingdom of priestesses."(Bathsheba Smith Statement, 9 June 1905, Pioneer Stake Relief Society minutes, LDS archives)

2)Some Brigham Young quotes

a) When Brigham Young's wife Mary received her endowments on Nov. 1, 1843, he wrote in his journal, "â??Mary A Young admitted to the hiest order of the Priesthood â?(Brigham Young Diary 29 Oct, 1 Nov 1843, copies in Donald R Moorman papers, ARchives, Weber State University). Now this is key here, because Mary did not receive her Second Anointing with Brigham Young until three weeks later. It was with her endowments that this admittance was acknowledged.

b)He also pointed out that both men and women need to honor their priesthood: â??Now Brethren, the man that honors his priesthood, the woman that honors her priesthood, will receive an everlasting inheritance in the kingdom of God.â? (JD 17:119)

c) Orson Hyde also made similar points in the following revelation and shared in the Navoo Temple in 1846: "â??The Priesthood holds the power and all have been ordained or ought to be. It is necessary that it should rest upon all, not upon men only but upon women also that ye may be all one. â?¦â?

(Bullock Minutes, 15 March 1846, BYU Studies Vol. 31, No. 1 p 61.)

[e=mc2]

Auter:

Anyone remember the Packer talk a few conferences back, where he warns the members about following dead prophets instead of living ones. I think that applies here.

It seems silly to reach back in time and pluck statements from old prophets and use them to demand today's church change practices. A current prophet trumps an older one any day of the week. I guess this is hard for some to understand.

That's nice and well except what about the scriptures then? The Book of Mormon? Anything Joseph said or was given in the D&C? Why bother with anything the dead ones said then? We are completely wasting our Priesthood time this year on Spencer W. Kimball, he's dead.......... why aren't we reading what President Hinckley has written and said?

[Deborah]

Auter:

That's nice and well except what about the scriptures then? The Book of Mormon? Anything Joseph said or was given in the D&C? Why bother with anything the dead ones said then? We are completely wasting our Priesthood time this year on Spencer W. Kimball, he's dead.......... why aren't we reading what President Hinckley has written and said?

I love reading what the old prophets said and I think that they often said things the people were simply not ready to hear, which is why later prophets have backtracked. I will be interested to see what goes on in those great discussions in heaven. I do think the issue is not so much with what one or the other said but what is appropriate practice for our day. That is the counsel we must follow, while still enjoying and speculating on the writings of those who went before. I think it is dangerous to find fault with any of the prophets, either in previous times or today. God will deal with them and it is not within our authority to judge them.