Question About Joseph Smiths Seizures

[ed2276]

BTW, Joseph Smith did, according to many reports, turn pale during a vision or revelation. But this is the only physical change of which I've read. So far as I know there isn't good evidence for diagnosing him with a seizure disorder.

Don

Howdy Don ,

As I recall , didn't Joseph say the turning pale was a result of the effect of being exposed to the glory of the visions , or some such thing? I seem to remember Joseph kind of teased Rigdon or someone who , after having been in vision , was left weak and pale. Joseph remarked that the poor fellow wasn't as used to being exposed to the glory and power of the Spirit as he himself had become.

[Connolly]

Well, this didn't take long to crack for what it really was. The first post in this thread is inaccurate - the poster assumes that it is a matter of fact that Joseph Smith had epilepsy.

One of the problems I noticed right away with the OP is the lack or an actual link. So I searched for the wikipedia entry.

Here is what I found under the list of religous figures. See for yourself what it really says right here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_peopl...ligious_figures

Many religious figures have been suspected of having had temporal lobe epilepsy. Looking for physical explanations of mystical experiences is controversial. Sudden religious conversion, together with visions, has been documented in a small number of individuals with temporal lobe epilepsy,[3] but the association between epilepsy and intense religious feelings is rare..

Wikipedia does not say that these religous figures had epilepsy, but something entirly different - that some have suggested that these religous figures may have had epilepsy and it goes on to indicate that the suggestion is most probably not valid.

Scrolling down the list I found the entry for Joseph Smith in the table.

Joseph Smith Jr. (1805 1844) Seized with a strange power, rendered speechless and fell on his back. Visions of darkness and light.

Well now we see the original post in an entirely new context. The Wikipedia entry is a clear reference to Joseph Smith's expereience when he attempted to pray to God in the grove of trees near his home as a young boy. There is a footnote to the entry. This is the footnote:

http://www.uni-graz.at/~schulter/se04_religiosity.pdf

And checking the referenced article, we find the following:

Another curious story, strongly suggestive of epilepsy,

concerns the sudden conversion of Joseph Smith

[11]. In the spring of 1820 Smith was seized with some

strange power which rendered him speechless. Darkness

gathered round him, and he was greatly afraid. Just at

this moment of great alarm, he writes, I saw a pillar of

light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the

sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me. It

no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered . . ..

When the light rested upon me, I saw two personages,

whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing

above me in the air. One of them spake unto me . . ..

When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on

my back looking up at heaven.

The authors suggested that Joseph Smith's first vision was suggestive of epilepsy but offered no evidence and did not draw any further conclusions. No mention of any of Smith's other revelations is treated. The author also left out most of the content of the first vision - which actually would have argued against his conclusion. The same authors also address the sudden conversion of Saul on the road to Damascus (this might be why the anti-mo-EV crowd is not all over this one as has been questioned elsewhere in this thread - its poison is more lethal to them).

Our original poster has taken one minor entry in Wikipedia, has not correctly read the introductory paragraph to the list of religous figures, and did not check on the cross reference to determine why whoever compiled the list included Joseph Smith - which we have now discovered is because one author mentioned it as a curious story without follow up conclusion in a paper dealing with religious conversion experiences.

[helix]

To summarize what we now know:

Joseph Smith, including those around him, experienced simultaneous group seizures, and this (obviously) helped induce Joseph Smith's automatic writing of the Book of Mormon.

It all makes too much sense.

[DonBradley]

Religious and philosophical may be stretching it a bit.

Not at all. There is a great deal of literature describing hyper-religiosity among epileptics, literature which, fwiw, I think has absolutely nothing to do with Joseph Smith.

Don

[Anijen]

you weren't aware that Smith had seizures? it's even on wikipedia, under "list of religious figures with epeleptic."

Uh and you believed wikipedia? Kinda like the NY Times?

[MorningStar]

You betcha. Simultaneously. Just as women who spend time together gradually synchronize their menstrual cycles, so people in general who spend time together gradually synchronize their EEG patterns. While group seizures resulting from this are rare, they have been known to occur. It's called Synchronized Seizing (SS), or Pluribus Unum Epilepsy (PUE). I should know. I'm the one who made it up.

Don Bradley, MAD M.D.

[MorningStar]

To summarize what we now know:

Joseph Smith, including those around him, experienced simultaneous group seizures, and this (obviously) helped induce Joseph Smith's automatic writing of the Book of Mormon.

It all makes too much sense.

I know. It totally does. The seer stone must've given him seizures and that's why he had to have someone else write the manuscript for him.

[Hammer]

Hi Hoops,

I may not be the one who discovered the synchronization of menstrual cycles, but I am the one who totally, absolutely made up the synchronization of EEGs. I pulled it out of a hat.

Actually, for all I know, brain-wave synchronization might actually be real. Heart rates appear to move toward synchronization when people are together for a while; so, it wouldn't be surprising if brain waves did as well. But, scientifically plausible or not, my comments were purely for fun!

BTW, Joseph Smith did, according to many reports, turn pale during a vision or revelation. But this is the only physical change of which I've read. So far as I know there isn't good evidence for diagnosing him with a seizure disorder.

Don

Thanks for this Don.

[Ron Beron]

hello you guys!

ok, now i'm asking about joseph smith's seizures.. like did he get them before he recieved a revelation, or when did he get them?

please realize that i'm not asking this to offend mormons. like there have been times when i have asked before, nad mormons have denied that he got seizures, and said that i was critisizing them. but a prophet having seizures isn't wierd. Ezeikel had seizures!

so yeah, i was just wondering WHEN joseph smith got them. some say that that's the source of his revelations..

There is a unique phenomena known as temporal lobe seizure which almost everyone gets from now and then that can effect one's perceptions. Without testing JS's visions will have to remain just that, visions. One thing comes to mind and that is the visions of Paul. Was he epileptic? Probably not. In Erich Neuman's book on the Origin of the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind he mentions the development and decline of a unique gland that exists in brain of the ancients that supposedly aided individuals in communication with the metaphysical. I'll see if I can find it.

[Brian's Mom]

Yes.

Autonomic Seizures

So it appears Joseph's severe vomiting episodes may be instances of autonomic seizures. I wonder if this is information worth investigating. Hmmmm.

Mom

[pcarthew]

hello you guys!

ok, now i'm asking about joseph smith's seizures.. like did he get them before he recieved a revelation, or when did he get them?

please realize that i'm not asking this to offend mormons. like there have been times when i have asked before, nad mormons have denied that he got seizures, and said that i was critisizing them. but a prophet having seizures isn't wierd. Ezeikel had seizures!

so yeah, i was just wondering WHEN joseph smith got them. some say that that's the source of his revelations..

Do seizures make the the revelations better or worse!!

[fox_goku]

I bet if we were to hook up a person having a vision to the EEG or whatever, I bet we would find unusual brain activity that one could interpret as a seizure.

My bet is that true revelation involves normal NOT abnormal or disordered brain activity. Then again, the issue is NOT a testable one.

[Oracle]

Let's compare Joseph's physical symptoms during the first vision to the known symptoms of temporal lobe seizure and see if you can find anything to warrant making a viable connection:

Temporal Lobe Seizure Symptoms

• Abnormal sensations
  
• Epigastric sensations ("a funny feeling in my gut," "stomach rising," etc.)Hallucinations or illusions (vision, smells, tastes, or other sensory illusions)
  
• Sensation of deja vu or recalled emotion/memory
  
• Sudden, intense emotion not related to anything occurring at the time
  
• Consciousness maintained during the seizure or spell (partial)
  
• Consciousness reduced or lost during the seizure or spell (partial complex)
  
• Motor/movement disturbances: Rhythmic muscle contraction/relaxation (clonic activity) -- rare
  
• Abnormal mouth behaviors -Lip smacking, Chewing or swallowing without cause -Profuse salivation "slobbering"
  
• Abnormal head movements
  
• Focal sensory (sensation) symptoms: Abnormal sensations, Numbness, tingling, crawling sensation, etc. Occurring in only one part of the body or spreading preceding motor symptoms
  
• Sensory hallucinations (visual, hearing, touch, etc.)
  
• Autonomic symptoms: Abdominal pain or discomfort, Nausea, Sweating, Flushed face, Dilated pupils (eyes), Rapid heart rate/pulse
  
• Other symptoms: Changes in vision, speech, thought, awareness, personality
  

And here are Joseph's known physical symptoms:

• I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was <siezed> upon by some power which entirely overcame me
  
• Thick darkness gathered around me and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.
  
• The adversary benighted his mind with doubts, and brought to his soul all kinds of improper pictures
  
• My tongue seemed to be swoolen in my mouth, so that I could not utter,and <had> such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak.
  
• I heard a noise behind me like some one walking towards me: I strove again to pray, but could not; the noise of walking seemed to draw nearer; I sprang upon my feet and looked round, but saw no person, or thing that was calculated to produce the noise of walking.
  
• exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had siezed upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction
  
• the overflowing mercy of God came to buoy him up, and gave new impulse and momentum to his dwindling strength
  
• Soon the dark clouds disappeared, and light and peace filled his troubled heart.
  
• he at length, saw a very bright and glorious light in the heavens above; which, at first, seemed to be a considerable distance.
  
• while the light appeared to be gradually descending towards him; and as it drew nearer, it increased in brightness and magnitude
  
• It continued descending slowly, until it rested upon the earth, and he was enveloped in the midst of it
  
• A personage appeared in the midst of this pillar of flame
  
• two glorious personages presented themselves before him
  
• I saw many angels in this vision.
  
• When the light had departed I had no strength
  
• and it was some time before my strength returned.
  
• leaving his mind in a state of calmness and peace.
  

[DonBradley]

Howdy Don ,

As I recall , didn't Joseph say the turning pale was a result of the effect of being exposed to the glory of the visions , or some such thing? I seem to remember Joseph kind of teased Rigdon or someone who , after having been in vision , was left weak and pale. Joseph remarked that the poor fellow wasn't as used to being exposed to the glory and power of the Spirit as he himself had become.

Hi Ed,

Yes, after the shared D&C 76 vision, Rigdon is left weak and pale, and Joseph comments that Sidney isn't as used to it as he is. In addition to this, there are numerous reports of Joseph himself turning pale during visions and revelations, though not usually turning weak. This reminds me, though, that there is one report of him collapsing while receiving a revelation and needing to be carried. Off hand, I don't recall the source; but I believe it is a late reminiscence. The source claims that the Spirit came upon Joseph Smith so powerfully to deliver the commandment to build the Nauvoo temple (D&C 124) that he fell down where he was in the street and was carried indoors by a few men, whereupon he dictated the revelation. I'm sure this reminiscence could be tracked down and compared to contemporary sources to test its validity.

Don