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Yes Another Polygamy Question


roman

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Every time I see a polygamy thread the lds faithful try to give it ligitimatcy by siting the OT. I would really like someone to teach me how the LDS explain JS and BY mulitple marriages according to the New Covanant that Jesus ushered in

With all the references to --ONE WIFE in the NC and Jesus NEVER teaching more that one wife---------How do lds give their approval to polygamy.

I'm looking for civil debate----------though I might have more questions and will certainly challenge any scripture references if I feel promted to.

Other than that have a good one

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Every time I see a polygamy thread the lds faithful try to give it ligitimatcy by siting the OT. I would really like someone to teach me how the LDS explain JS and BY mulitple marriages according to the New Covanant that Jesus ushered in

With all the references to --ONE WIFE in the NC and Jesus NEVER teaching more that one wife---------How do lds give their approval to polygamy.

I'm looking for civil debate----------though I might have more questions and will certainly challenge any scripture references if I feel promted to.

Other than that have a good one

Hi Roman,

I can only speak for myself. Whenever I cite OT examples of polygamy it is only to show that the practice, in and of itself, is not innately immoral or dissaproved of by our Heavenly Father. In fact, some of Heavenly Father's greatest sons were polygamists. Some of his greatest sons were monogamists.

Now to answer your questian, LDS are not limited by the Bible. We love the Bible, study the Bible, bear witness of the Bible but we are not circumscribed by it. LDS follow ancient law and revelation along with modern day revelation to living prophets, just like the people of biblical times. LDS, just like the ancient biblical christians, follow living prophets and the revelations they recieve, along with what has already been given.

So for the LDS it makes no difference what Heavenly Father commanded the Nephites, Abraham,David or Jesus to do thousands of years ago. What counts for us, is what Heavenly Father commands today from his living prophets. Much of that continues the legitimacy of older revelation, some of it abrogates the older revelations.

hope this helps

Her amun

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Her Amun:

" I can only speak for myself. Whenever I cite OT examples of polygamy it is only to show that the practice, in and of itself, is not innately immoral or dissaproved of by our Heavenly Father. In fact, some of Heavenly Father's greatest sons were polygamists. Some of his greatest sons were monogamists.

Now to answer your questian, LDS are not limited by the Bible. We love the Bible, study the Bible, bear witness of the Bible but we are not circumscribed by it. LDS follow ancient law and revelation along with modern day revelation to living prophets, just like the people of biblical times. LDS, just like the ancient biblical christians, follow living prophets and the revelations they recieve, along with what has already been given.

So for the LDS it makes no difference what Heavenly Father commanded the Nephites, Abraham,David or Jesus to do thousands of years ago. What counts for us, is what Heavenly Father commands today from his living prophets. Much of that continues the legitimacy of older revelation, some of it abrogates the older revelations.'

Agreed.

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Sorry dude, I should have snagged a bit of Roman's quote to distinguish that I was addressing it towards him. But, I suppose I might as well go on with my line of thought. If James is/was the brother of Jesus, and Mary was a virgin (traditional definition, not alternate definition) at the time of Jesus' birth, then Joseph probably had another wife. My personal opinion is that Joseph (not Smith) could have been in a polygamous marriage (although I have read some speculations that he was widowed at the time he married Mary).

I'll see if I can find the references from the Coptic History of Joseph, but I recall it mentioning that Judas, James, and Simon were all sons of Joseph (as well as naming two daughters).

Edit: I can't find an online copy, and my copy is at home. But wiki mentions it (hopefully that will suffice):

... proclaims that Joseph had four sons (Judas, Justus, James, and Simon) and two daughters (Assia and Lydia) by a previous marriage.

Although I had my sources crossed in my head. It appears that this apocryphal text insinuates Joseph to be a widow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Joseph_the_Carpenter

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LDS feel after Jacob two in the Book of Mormon polygamy was only then forbidden. But I think it's Deut. 21 where God tolerated polygamy by having rules governing polygamous families. This was after Deut. 17 forbade kings from multiplying many wives to themselves. The one option for LDS is that God intially condoned polygamy, but that it became a wicked practice over time. I heard some say God only tolerated, and never condoned it. But if you pardon, and overlook someone's polygamy that's still condoning it.

I am not sure Jesus, or the NC is limited to never condoning polygamy if he saw a special need. I doubt the LDS idea that polygamy was authorized by God in the 19th century though.

One I recall was let the Bishop be a husband of one wife. No doubt polygamist Christians existed, and God didn't want them called to be Bishops. This does not say though that such a polygamist was damned to hell for polygamy. We don't know polygamy was a salvation issue for early Christian polygamists or not. We don't have enough information to say God damned polygamists for being polygamists.

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LDS feel after Jacob two in the Book of Mormon polygamy was only then forbidden.

Some LDS apparently don't read all the way to verse 30 which is the answer to the question (the Bible doesn't answer it). The answer is that the Lord will authorize plural marriage from time to time. LDS doctrine on the matter hasn't changed. Previously officially sanctioned plural marriages are still officially sanctioned and it is possible that such will occur again.

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Sorry dude, I should have snagged a bit of Roman's quote to distinguish that I was addressing it towards him. But, I suppose I might as well go on with my line of thought. If James is/was the brother of Jesus, and Mary was a virgin (traditional definition, not alternate definition) at the time of Jesus' birth, then Joseph probably had another wife. My personal opinion is that Joseph (not Smith) could have been in a polygamous marriage (although I have read some speculations that he was widowed at the time he married Mary).

I'll see if I can find the references from the Coptic History of Joseph, but I recall it mentioning that Judas, James, and Simon were all sons of Joseph (as well as naming two daughters).

Edit: I can't find an online copy, and my copy is at home. But wiki mentions it (hopefully that will suffice):

Although I had my sources crossed in my head. It appears that this apocryphal text insinuates Joseph to be a widow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Joseph_the_Carpenter

hmmmm,

The possibility also exists that Joseph was a widower, or that James was Christ's kid brother.

I doubt a carpenter would have the means to provide for a polygamist family.

Lets not forget that polygamy wasnt ended in western judaism until the 11th centuary following Rabbi Gershom's ban., and some middle eastern jews still practiced it until about middle of the last centuary.

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/nashim/toc/nsh11.1.html

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The one option for LDS is that God intially condoned polygamy, but that it became a wicked practice over time. I heard some say God only tolerated, and never condoned it. But if you pardon, and overlook someone's polygamy that's still condoning it.

I respectfully disagree. God gives and God takes away. One day he wants us to keep kosher, the next day its the Word of Wisdom. One day its polygamy the next day its monogamy and back to polygamy again.

I, only one LDS, say its just a matter of continuing revelation. TODAY God mandates monogamy. If he wants me to grow a beard and side locks, then Ill do that to.

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The possibility also exists that Joseph was a widower, or that James was Christ's kid brother.

The widower aspect is actually implied in the History of Joseph. I've never thought about James being Christ's kid brother. According to Robert H. Brom, (Catholic Bishop of San Diego), in a paper titled ""Brethren of the Lord", the events of Mark 3:21 "...could make sense for ancient Jews only if the "brethren" were older than Jesus,..." Also, Bruce Chilton of Bard College (in a paper titled "James, Jesus' Brother) felt that the same verse "... reflects the kind of almost parental concern an older brother might feel for a younger brother." Chilton also speaks about the other siblings and the Helvidian view.

"On the Helvidian view, Mary must have given birth to at least seven children in twelve years (Jesus, his brothers, and two or more sisters). Assuming that not every child she gave birth to survived infancy, more than seven labors would be required during that period, all this within a culture that confined women after childbirth and prohibited intercourse with a woman with a flow of blood, and despite the acknowledged prophylactic effect of lactation and Josephâ??s age."

Seems to me to make more sense if there was another wife.

I doubt a carpenter would have the means to provide for a polygamist family.

A very (very, very) valid argument (IMO).

I'll do my best to find links to the two papers I referenced above. I only have them in print format, and didn't save the website links when I saved them...

Edit: Found them --

Bruce Chilton thingy

Robert H. Brom thingy

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Good answers so far---alot to think about. I would say that I didn't ask for justifaication according to the Bible---but according to the New Covanant. Just a small distiction

Aand yes James is Jesus---------------HALF brother. same mom-------different dads

so what do you do with the references to --------ONE wife qualification for Church leaders----------that it wasn't in effect in JS life?

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[...]

Aand yes James is Jesus---------------HALF brother. same mom-------different dads

Just wanted to make sure you don't believe in Mary's perpetual virginity (which I believe is a Catholic belief, and held by a few other denominations) before I started in on my wild speculations.

so what do you do with the references to --------ONE wife qualification for Church leaders----------that it wasn't in effect in JS life?

Roman, do you mind pointing me in the direction of the book/chapter/verse for this ("one wife qualification...")? My mind is drawing a blank (I think I know what you're referring to, but I want to make sure).

Thanks,

Stu

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Before I get too far into my personal speculations, do you think that James was Jesus' brother?

Yes James was Jesus' brother along with Jude, Simon and Joses. See Matthew 13:55, Mark 6:3 and Paul's comments in Galatians 1:19. Jesus also had sisters though we don't know their name or how many. (Matthew 13:56)

Phaedrus

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I would really like someone to teach me how the LDS explain JS and BY mulitple marriages according to the New Covanant that Jesus ushered in.

VERILY, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubinesâ??

Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.

Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory. â?? D&C 132: 1-4

From this I can see that our Lord, Jesus Christ, is about to explain the new and everlasting covenant to Joseph, which includes the covenant of eternal marriage... as our Lord explains to Joseph a little later.

Try reading the entire revelation, first, and then let me, and us, know if you have any questions.

It seems self-explanatory to me.

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Every time I see a polygamy thread the lds faithful try to give it ligitimatcy by siting the OT. I would really like someone to teach me how the LDS explain JS and BY mulitple marriages according to the New Covanant that Jesus ushered in

With all the references to --ONE WIFE in the NC and Jesus NEVER teaching more that one wife---------How do lds give their approval to polygamy.

I'm looking for civil debate----------though I might have more questions and will certainly challenge any scripture references if I feel promted to.

Other than that have a good one

As far as comparing old covenants to new ones, polygamy was practiced by righteous men before even the 1) Law of Moses was given, and it was never a part of the Law of Moses. Polygamy was practiced by some during the law of Moses, but to my knowledge that occured only in authorized circumstances, like today. LDS believe that the new covenant is not really new, just a continuation of the same covenant that existed prior the Law of Moses. Abraham lived the higher law, the everlasting covenant, the same that Christ taught. Abraham also had multiple wives.

2) The fact that the bible does not describe Jesus as teaching polygamy does not mean he did not teach it. In fact, the bible expressely says that Christ taught many things to his apostles, which were to be kept from the masses.

3)

1Ti 3:1
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3) Is any here qualified to determine if the "one" could also be interpreted as an "a"?

Sargon

Heh, yes, I think you are.

Have any bishops of our Lord ever had more than one wife?

The qualifications today are the same as in the past.

... or do you not know that, Sargon?

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Every time I see a polygamy thread the lds faithful try to give it ligitimatcy by siting the OT. I would really like someone to teach me how the LDS explain JS and BY mulitple marriages according to the New Covanant that Jesus ushered in

With all the references to --ONE WIFE in the NC and Jesus NEVER teaching more that one wife---------How do lds give their approval to polygamy.

I'm looking for civil debate----------though I might have more questions and will certainly challenge any scripture references if I feel promted to.

Other than that have a good one

Your assumption is that Joseph Smith's and Brigham Young's marriages are the same as the NT reference you gave.

There is a difference.

I'd direct you to the FAIR website where there are quite a few articles that talk about this subject.

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Heh, yes, I think you are.

Have any bishops of our Lord ever had more than one wife?

The qualifications today are the same as in the past.

... or do you not know that, Sargon?

I meant the original greek in which it was written.

Sargon

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[...]

3)

Is any here qualified to determine if the "one" could also be interpreted as an "a"?

Sargon

I'm sure there's probably someone (not me though). It's all Greek to me:

dei oun ton episkopon anepilhpton einai miaV gunaikoV andra nhfaleon swfrona kosmion filoxenon didaktikon

I think the bolded section is what we need a ruling on.

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I meant the original greek in which it was written.

Sargon

Yes, I know that.

And I was saying that we have the doctrine taught in those days now in our language.

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Thanks for all who reponded. With that and the link ot 2 provided I think I have enough to understand the lds postion.

This is what I come away with--------for the lds perspective

1. The NC doesn't speak directly to the subject matter-----so it has no authority in the matter

2. If it was done in the past-------its okay now--or at least till God removes his saction on it

3. Present revalation is always overriding of past revalation--no matter the topic, context--or what God has already said in the past

4. Former Pres. Clinton is posting as a sock puppet---------wondering if --ONE equals A :P

As I now go and paint my garage and think on this some more. let me leave this thought.

I see nowhere in the Bible that ploygamy was ever a good thing-------It hurt all that practiced it. I don't believe for a second that it was Gods plan. Even in the Garden of Eden the idea is set out------one man ---one woman for ever, and that thought was carried out even until today.

It almost seems to me that it is commanded in the NC that anyone who desires to be a leader of men------that qualification were set out and to be strickly obeyed. So I wonder where that scripture that lds use so often --------If you love me you will keep my commandments----------------fits into all of this------because I see JS and BY multiple marriages as a direct violation of Gods plan for marriage-----------------------------------------------but hey at least I understand WHY you believe as you do-----------thanks all again

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Every time I see a polygamy thread the lds faithful try to give it ligitimatcy by siting the OT. I would really like someone to teach me how the LDS explain JS and BY mulitple marriages according to the New Covanant that Jesus ushered in

With all the references to --ONE WIFE in the NC and Jesus NEVER teaching more that one wife---------How do lds give their approval to polygamy.

I'm looking for civil debate----------though I might have more questions and will certainly challenge any scripture references if I feel promted to.

Other than that have a good one

Well and on top of that the Plural marriage practiced by the LDS Church is not really like that in the OT. For starters in the LDS Church is was requred for the highest degree of exaltation and was eternal. I find nothing like that in the OT practice.

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