The Scmc: What's Up With This?

[Warship]

What seemed creepy to me was that the reporting, if accurate, indicates a willingness on the part of SCMC to "receive complaints from church members about other members who have made statements that 'conceivably could do harm to the church.'"

Where would one draw the line here? Who draws it?

Best.

CKS

Good questions.

Sort of reminds of when the Nazis asked everyone to turn in their neighbors who exhibited dissident thoughts.

Again hyperbolized, but similar enough for the comparison.

[The Nehor]

The Necronomicon or Martha Stewart's Good Things?

I know nothing sinister would come from the Strengthening Church Members Committee, its just the principle I guess.

Edit: Nehor totally beat me to the punch. That's what I get for playing with my adorable niece while trying to write a reply.

I envy you. If my adorable nieces and nephews were here I would also have been delayed

[structurecop]

It reminds of when the Nazis asked everyone to turn in their neighbors who exhibited dissident thoughts.

Again hyperbolized, but similar enough for the comparison.

Uh-oh, someone is about to accuse you of a Godwin's law violation.

Let's use this moment as a teaching tool.

Everyone listening? Good.

The law states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

This means that when someone makes a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler, it is not a violation, it is a fulfillment. Still with me?

Furthermore, from Wikipedia,

It is considered poor form to arbitrarily raise such a comparison with the motive of ending the thread. There is a widely recognized codicil that any such ulterior-motive invocation of Godwin's Law will be unsuccessful. This is sometimes referred to as "Quirk's Exception". "RGB's Restriction of Quirk's Exception", also states: "In cases where the subject of the comparison to Hitler fails to recognize the applicability of Quirk's Exception, Quirk's Exception shall not apply and Godwin's Law shall take effect in its normal manner."

Godwin's Law does not apply to discussions directly addressing genocide, propaganda or other mainstays of the Nazi regime. Instead, it applies to inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparisons of other situations to Hitler or Nazis. However, Godwin's Law can itself also be abused, as a distraction or diversion, to fallaciously miscast an opponent's argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparison it made were actually appropriate.

Please, all, read and take heed. Anytime someone makes a comparison to Nazis, it is not necessarily a fulfillment of Godwin's law. And starting threads to accuse others of using Nazis in order to get the thread closed is also especially poor form.

[Warship]

Pahoran,

Yes, and how do you suppose the super-secret committee goes about monitoring them? Got your tinfoil helmet yet?

The committee keeps clippings of publications. That's what it does.

Perhaps a little more investigation would help...as CKS said...

the reporting, if accurate, indicates a willingness on the part of SCMC to "receive complaints from church members about other members who have made statements that 'conceivably could do harm to the church.'

"

Do you have any means of falsifying this? Does the church even deny this?

I know my history...it still does not excuse such behavior. Perhaps bc of Timothy McVeigh we should allow the government to install cameras in everyones' home so they can monitor all our activities.

Benjamin franklin said those who give up their liberty for safety deserve neither liberty or safety.

You are not succeeding in making my position look ridiculous, only your grasp of the princples in play here.

[Warship]

StructureCop,

I don't know why a thread would close bc of the mention of Nazis. I certainly wasn't trying to close down the thread.

I also called this hyperbole.

[The Nehor]

Pahoran,

Perhaps a little more investigation would help...as CKS said...

"

Do you have any means of falsifying this? Does the church even deny this?

I know my history...it still does not excuse such behavior. Perhaps bc of Timothy McVeigh we should allow the government to install cameras in everyones' home so they can monitor all our activities.

Benjamin franklin said those who give up their liberty for safety deserve neither liberty or safety.

You are not succeeding in making my position look ridiculous, only your grasp of the princples in play here.

After a thorough search of my apartment I have discovered no cameras or listening devices my Home Teachers installed in secret. I loudly said that I think that wine is not a serious sin and that I once went to Church wearing a chainmail tie. It has been 30 minutes and I have not had my door knocked in by a paramilitary Danite squad. HOORAY for freedom.

[Warship]

After a thorough search of my apartment I have discovered no cameras or listening devices my Home Teachers installed in secret. I loudly said that I think that wine is not a serious sin and that I once went to Church wearing a chainmail tie. It has been 30 minutes and I have not had my door knocked in by a paramilitary Danite squad. HOORAY for freedom.

OK, I look ridiculous.

As I said earlier...it is really just the principle of the thing.

I got three more nephews where that niece came from..they are all great!

[structurecop]

StructureCop,

I don't know why a thread would close bc of the mention of Nazis. I certainly wasn't trying to close down the thread.

I also called this hyperbole.

Warship, I understand, and that was the point of my post in case anyone should try to imply otherwise.

[Warship]

StructureCop,

Thanks.

Sorry, I misunderstood.

[Daniel Peterson]

As I said earlier...it is really just the principle of the thing.

What "thing"? There's no "there" there.

The Strengthening Church Members hysteria that afflicts isolated pockets of the anti-Mormon, ex-Mormon, and wavering Mormon population is without any genuine basis in reality.

There is no espionage or surveillance network being run out of Church headquarters. This is all a complete myth.

[Pahoran]

Pahoran,

Perhaps a little more investigation would help...as CKS said...

the reporting, if accurate, indicates a willingness on the part of SCMC to "receive complaints from church members about other members who have made statements that 'conceivably could do harm to the church.'

Yes, and? Did you see the "if?"

Do you have any means of falsifying this? Does the church even deny this?

Accusations, just so you know, don't have to be "falsified." They have to be proven.

I know my history...it still does not excuse such behavior.

I'm astonished that you think keeping clippings of publications is a kind of "behavior" that needs to be "excused."

Perhaps bc of Timothy McVeigh we should allow the government to install cameras in everyones' home so they can monitor all our activities.

Benjamin franklin said those who give up their liberty for safety deserve neither liberty or safety.

Nice quip. How is it relevant?

You are not succeeding in making my position look ridiculous, only your grasp of the princples in play here.

And what exactly are those principles? That it is evil to keep clippings of hostile publications? That going through the motions of getting baptised ought to keep one safely inside a big blind spot on the committee's radar?

The Church is fully entitled to know how it is being attacked in public. It is irrational to the point of hysteria to imagine some kind of 1984 scenario.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Uncle Dale]

There is no espionage or surveillance network being run out of Church headquarters.

This is all a complete myth.

Does Church Security actively monitor the whereabouts of known troublemakers during 1st Pres.

appearances (like 24th of July parades, etc.) or is that sort of peripheral bodyguarding left to

local law enforcement?

Uncle Dale

[Daniel Peterson]

There is a Church security operation, but it mostly relies upon local law enforcement.

I'm sorry that I can't be more supportive of those who desperately want to imagine that there exists a private wannabe Orwellian police state in the center of Salt Lake City.

[structurecop]

Does Church Security actively monitor the whereabouts of known troublemakers during 1st Pres.

appearances (like 24th of July parades, etc.) or is that sort of peripheral bodyguarding left to

local law enforcement?

Uncle Dale

It's not really necessary now since the Church bought 15 Pope-mobiles.

[Warship]

DCP,

There is no espionage or surveillance network being run out of Church headquarters. This is all a complete myth.

I never suggested espionage or surveillance networks...although that may be what Pahoran imagines.

Are you saying the church does not â??receive complaints from church members about other members who have made statements that 'conceivably could do harm to the church'â? â?¦complaints that include rule abiding members' beliefs and ideas? That is the "thing"...not some straw about Orwellian societies.

If you say it does not, I will take your word for it.

[Daniel Peterson]

Are you saying the church does not â??receive complaints from church members about other members who have made statements that 'conceivably could do harm to the church'â? â?¦complaints that include rule abiding members' beliefs and ideas?

How could I possibly say such a thing? Anybody who wants to call Church headquarters or send them a letter or an e-mail is entirely free to do so. And, if somebody at Church headquarters picks up the phone or opens the letter or the e-mail, the Church has "received" it.

I'm sure that this happens.

If you say it does not, I will take your word for it.

Here's what I understand to be the basic function of (cue the horror movie music) the SCMC: If it comes across an article about a speech or some other activity by a member of the Church that might be worth the attention of a stake president or a bishop, it clips the article and sends it to the relevant bishop or stake president, who may, otherwise, not have seen it. Another kind of case arises when a Church member contacts Church HQ with doctrinal concerns about a close relative. I was involved in such a case. The head of the SCMC called me and asked me (along with another BYU professor) to meet with a member who had asked to have his name removed from Church records, and with his stake president. The man's wife had called in, asking for help. So we spent about three hours with him one evening, trying to answer his questions and assuage his concerns. It was all terribly sinister.

[Pahoran]

How could I possibly say such a thing? Anybody who wants to call Church headquarters or send them a letter or an e-mail is entirely free to do so. And, if somebody at Church headquarters picks up the phone or opens the letter or the e-mail, the Church has "received" it.

I'm sure that this happens.

Here's what I understand to be the basic function of (cue the horror movie music) the SCMC: If it comes across an article about a speech or some other activity by a member of the Church that might be worth the attention of a stake president or a bishop, it clips the article and sends it to the relevant bishop or stake president, who may, otherwise, not have seen it. Another kind of case arises when a Church member contacts Church HQ with doctrinal concerns about a close relative. I was involved in such a case. The head of the SCMC called me and asked me (along with another BYU professor) to meet with a member who had asked to have his name removed from Church records, and with his stake president. The man's wife had called in, asking for help. So we spent about three hours with him one evening, trying to answer his questions and assuage his concerns. It was all terribly sinister.

Oh, extremely. According to our favourite expert on all things Peterson and FARMS--you know, the fellow who relies exclusively upon second sight--you held the poor fellow against his will and beat him with rubber hoses until he recanted. Evidently the CIA-trained lip-reading expert you brought with you thought he saw the fellow mumbling something like "eppur si muove" as you made him kneel and kiss the CHI, but he didn't know what it meant.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Hyrum Page]

I did read on a BYU-related site that the Church monitors thousands of web sites related to Mormonism. All I can say about that is I hope they find something interesting to read in all of that.

[e=mc2]

Tsuzuki:

Legends speak of a book whose contents are so blasphemous that it has been known to drive anyone who reads it insane.

Kerry:

NOT legend.......FACT! That book is my Calculus book........sigh.......want proof? O.K., check out my self portrait! (this is on Monday).... (this is on Friday)........ and this is me on weekends doing my homework

[Warship]

DCP,

How could I possibly say such a thing? Anybody who wants to call Church headquarters or send them a letter or an e-mail is entirely free to do so. And, if somebody at Church headquarters picks up the phone or opens the letter or the e-mail, the Church has "received" it.

I'm sure that this happens.

Point taken, but I was wondering if the church encouraged such behaviorâ?¦I suppose it is irrelevant.

Here's what I understand to be the basic function of (cue the horror movie music) the SCMC:

I appreciate this. I have no problem with keeping an eye on published material, and I think it was rather nice of you to visit with this man at the wifeâ??s request.

I have no problem with discussion.

It was this that caught my attention in the OP.

Old-style polygamists have suffered as much as liberal Mormons from excommunication. Says Jan Shipps, a religious historian at Indiana University-Purdue University: "It's the steering of a middle course."

It was suggestive that the SCMC how the power to excommunicate. I suppose this is not the case.

Thanks

[Hyrum Page]

I was involved in such a case. The head of the SCMC called me and asked me (along with another BYU professor) to meet with a member who had asked to have his name removed from Church records, and with his stake president. The man's wife had called in, asking for help. So we spent about three hours with him one evening, trying to answer his questions and assuage his concerns. It was all terribly sinister.

Peterson, you diabolical...

[e=mc2]

Not only diabolical, but you can just read it between the lines of his sinsiter confession that the good brother did NOT want him nor that committee there! Crimany when I was at the FAIR Conference last year, Dr. Peterson was almost all the way across the hall from me, and gave a gentle wave to me as I was trying.....***trying*** to rush into the bookstore. I was mezmer-eyes-ed......IT'S HIS RING! That ring he wears has a secret transmitter that hums lower than audible words forcing their way into your un-sub-under-conscious, and I could not stop from going over to him. I was brainwashed into standing there listening to him spin his yarns and brainwash us all about the goodness of FARMS (and himself), and I could not move out of that trance. As long as he talked, we were his victims, victims of a terrible crime against our wills. NONE of us desired to be there with him, but he held us fast. When he finally finished his brainwashing, he then waved goodbye to us, which turned off the signal in that diabolical ring, and we were released. But it's too late, we had the doctrines he specifically was told by the committee to instill within our brains. I now am a believer. I BELIEVE............. I CANNOT DO OTHERWISE.................

[Hammer]

Do you find this creepy as well?

What is really creepy is the automatic evil intent attached to these kinds of meetings. Does anyone remember when the temple was being bombed?

Everyone know those who leave the church or fights against it aren't sound of mind.

Stop the insults, we get too many complaints about you so I suggest you make some changes. ~ Mods

[Avatar4321]

After a thorough search of my apartment I have discovered no cameras or listening devices my Home Teachers installed in secret. I loudly said that I think that wine is not a serious sin and that I once went to Church wearing a chainmail tie. It has been 30 minutes and I have not had my door knocked in by a paramilitary Danite squad. HOORAY for freedom.

Haha we hid them better than your realize... Ignore that sharpshooter outside your window;)

[The Nehor]

Point taken, but I was wondering if the church encouraged such behaviorâ?¦I suppose it is irrelevant.

As a lifelong member I can say that except on my Mission I have never heard it once suggested, implied, or commanded in any meeting I have ever been in that I should report the doctrinal beliefs or practices of others. The only time I have ever reported something in spite of the lack of commands was in the case of a Missionary Companion who was blatantly defying authority and trying to manipulate ward leaders through deceit.