Lessons From Martin Luther: I Now Understand Protestants Much Better

[Jolard]

I was listening to one of the BBC podcasts today, "In Our Time" (Linked Here) about Martin Luthor and the Diet of Worms. This was the famous gathering where Luthor was called before the Holy Roman Emporer to account for his heresy.

It was very interesting, as all the BBC podcasts are, but most importantly I actually gained some understanding of the positions of our Protestant friends.

According to the Podcast, the issue that sparked the "heresy" in Luthor was the issue of Indulgences. These became very common in the Catholic Church at the time, and it was a way to buy yourself salvation. The indulgences took two forms, most commonly simple cash, and other times labor, favors or land. This buying of salvation incensed Luthor, who felt it was evil, and lead to his insistance that you could not buy salvation, but that salvation was fully in God's hands. No man could tell you that you have been saved, and you couldn't do anything to earn salvation, it was all up to God.

This helped me understand why Protestants are so insistent that salvation is from Faith and not from Works. It was the principle issue that sparked the Reformation, and the insistence that you cannot work towards or buy yourself salvation has its roots in this initial argument from Luthor. I always assumed it was simply biblical, or theological in nature, but now that I understand where the idea came from, it makes sense that they had such a radical rejection of anything approaching works.

The second thing they talked about was where does truth come from. Another of Luthor's issues with the Catholic church was that the Pope was the only one able to interpret the Bible, whereas Luthor felt that he could justify his position by appealing to the Bible. It was a simple challenge to the authority of the Pope, by claiming the inerrent authority of the Bible. At the time there was no other choice. If the Pope was wrong, where would you get your authority. The only place Luthor had to go was an appeal to the Bible.

He was challenged at one point to support his assertion that indulgences were wrong, and he simply used the Bible to support his position, and then challenged anyone to refute his claims using the Bible. Of course the church was unable to, because it only referred to the authority of the Pope. So this was a clean break in this authority.

This helps me understand why so many Protestants hang so much of their faith on the inerrancy of the Bible. Why they are so insistent that it is complete and whole and the only source of authority. It is because at the time it was the only available source, and if it is not inerrent or whole, then they lose the basis of their appeal to the Bible as authority rather than the Pope.

While I obviously don't agree with everything the Protestants say, I do now have a greater sympathy for their position, and I think I understand better why they have so much of a problem with us. Just like the Pope, we claim authority outside of the Bible, and this contradicts what Luthor said. We also teach that Faith without Works is dead, and that we need to fulfil certain ordinances and actions in order to be saved, which to them smacks of the indulgences that Luthor fought against. I don't agree with their position, but I think I understand it a little better now.

[katherine the great]

I was listening to one of the BBC podcasts today, "In Our Time" (Linked Here) about Martin Luthor

According to the Podcast, the issue that sparked the "heresy" in Luthor was the issue of Indulgences. These became very common in the Catholic Church at the time, and it was a way to buy yourself salvation. The indulgences took two forms, most commonly simple cash, and other times labor, favors or land. This buying of salvation incensed Luthor, who felt it was evil, and lead to his insistance that you could not buy salvation, but that salvation was fully in God's hands. No man could tell you that you have been saved, and you couldn't do anything to earn salvation, it was all up to God.

This helped me understand why Protestants are so insistent that salvation is from Faith and not from Works.

I think he was also very disturbed that only the elite were even able to read the Bible. The people were completely dependent on local clergy to even tell them what to believe.

[Calm]

The Gift of Indulgences

[Jolard]

Katherine,

I understand that you are correct. They didn't emphasize this issue at all in the podcast, but they did mention that Luthor was translating the Bible into German, which was another of his acts of Heresy.

Calmoriah, thanks for the link. It is a good example of what indulgences are today. I understand these were common then too, but that they also had Salvation as a whole on sale. It is pretty interesting stuff.

One final thing that was really interesting in the podcast was how they finished. The final question that was asked of the panel was "what is the doctrinal legacy of Luthor?" One of the panelists answers that the Protestant idea of salvation being solely in God's power, rather than anything you do is a liberating idea. It is wonderful to be able to stop worrying about salvation and then just say to yourself, "it is in God's hands." However he also indicated that this presented a problem for Christians though, which is why should I bother doing good things?

I have to agree with him, I still don't fully understand all of the commandments we have been given, that it appears to me in a Protestant world view it really doesn't matter if I keep them, because my salvation is secure in God's hands.

Anyway, I would recommend listening, it was very interesting, and like I mentioned, really helped me get a better understanding of why these issues are so important to Protestants.

[katherine the great]

Anyway, I would recommend listening, it was very interesting, and like I mentioned, really helped me get a better understanding of why these issues are so important to Protestants.

A little understanding goes a long way in relationships!

[Calm]

but that they also had Salvation as a whole on sale.

I think it is important to understand this from the POV of the Catholics---no, Salvation was not for sale though some may have perceived it that way: Myths about Indulgences

[katherine the great]

I think it is important to understand this from the POV of the Catholics---no, Salvation was not for sale though some may have perceived it that way: Myths about Indulgences

Frankly, that sounds like spin. Although their origins may be misunderstood, their abuse knew no bounds.

[sob76]

Jolard,

I appreciate your investigation of what most reformed christians would call one of the great leaders of the reformation. I don't think it was ever Luther's goal to become a 'great leader' or even a historical figure. He just wanted the Catholic Church to stop distorting scripture and to stop stealing from people in God's name. I enjoyed your comments. He placed God and truth above his lifelong faith and church. I think we all would be wise to follow his example and evaluate our faiths and our churches against God and his Holy Word. And then reform ourselves and if necessary our churches to the Word of God.

And while it's true, Martin Luther stressed salvation by faith alone, I don't think the reason I stress it is because Martin Luther did. I don't think Luther invented the notion, he only restated it to a people who were straying away from the Word of God.

As for the authority of the Bible, even Jesus refered to the authority of Scripture. In fact he quite often quoted the Old Testament. I don't think Luther's appeal to Scripture anything new, just something he sought to renew in the church.

[Jolard]

Sob76

Thanks for your comments.

I don't want anyone to think that I am suggesting that all Protestants believe what they do because of Martin Luthor, but it did make more sense to me why these two issues (Faith vs Works and the inerrency of the Bible) are so important to Protestants. It was very interesting.

You may be surprised to hear this, but I agree with you that putting the authority of one man over the scriptures is a problem, it is when the authority and the Bible are in agreement that we are on the right path. That is why I appreciate living prophets and the scriptures.

I think we all would be wise to follow his example and evaluate our faiths and our churches against God and his Holy Word.

I agree 100%, this is always critical. Obviously others (and you) might disagree, but I feel like this is an important part of my testimony of the Church, that is that after my study I truly feel that the LDS church is closest to the scriptures.

Part of the problem of course is interpretation. The Catholics were scolded by Luthor for saying that only the Pope could interpret scripture, and I have to admit that in the LDS church we do a little of the same, if there is confusion we would defer to the prophet. But the wonderful thing for us is that we can also defer to the spirit, and use the spirit to help us to discern truth.

It is all very interesting!

[Programmer]

... which to them smacks of the indulgences that Luthor fought against. ...

Only to the wacko anti-mormons who can't mentally seperate indulgences from the requirements of the commands of God to have faith, repent, be baptized, love your neighbor, give to the poor, the widow and the fatherless.

Their judgement is swift, and their doom is for sure. The judgement they level on the Mormon's will be surely turned on their own heads ala Matthew 7.

[Jolard]

Only to the wacko anti-mormons who can't mentally seperate indulgences from the requirements of the commands of God to have faith, repent, be baptized, love your neighbor, give to the poor, the widow and the fatherless.

Obviously I agree that their perspective is wrong, but I think it is a little more common than just the wacko anti mormons. Luthor's great contribution (at least according to the experts on the podcast) was the idea that salvaton couldn't be earned or bought, it was all in God's hands. This was a direct response to the perceived buying and earning of salvation that was going on in the Catholic Church at the time.

So when we swing the pendulum back a little away from it all being in God's hands towards earning our salvation, this becomes an attack on the very foundations of Protestantism.

[David Waltz]

Hello Jolard,

You posted:

>>According to the Podcast, the issue that sparked the "heresy" in Luthor was the issue of Indulgences. These became very common in the Catholic Church at the time, and it was a way to buy yourself salvation. The indulgences took two forms, most commonly simple cash, and other times labor, favors or land. This buying of salvation incensed Luthor, who felt it was evil, and lead to his insistance that you could not buy salvation, but that salvation was fully in God's hands. No man could tell you that you have been saved, and you couldn't do anything to earn salvation, it was all up to God.>>

I have not listened to the podcast, but if the above is an accurate portrayal of the content, the said podcast contains some grave errors. Indulgences have nothing to do with â??salvationâ?; rather, an indulgence is linked to the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. Purgatory is the temporary abode of the saved, a place of purification before one enters into heaven (i.e. the presence of God).

See the following links:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

Moving on, Catholic doctrine affirms the doctrine of sola gratia, and does not teach that one can â??earn salvationâ?.

You also wrote:

>>This helped me understand why Protestants are so insistent that salvation is from Faith and not from Works. It was the principle issue that sparked the Reformation, and the insistence that you cannot work towards or buy yourself salvation has its roots in this initial argument from Luthor. I always assumed it was simply biblical, or theological in nature, but now that I understand where the idea came from, it makes sense that they had such a radical rejection of anything approaching works.>>

This is a false dichotomy, for Catholics affirm that salvation is by faith; what we reject is the doctrine that it is by â??faith aloneâ?; a concept that is foreign to the Bible, and the teachings of the Church Fathers.

And again:

>>The second thing they talked about was where does truth come from. Another of Luthor's issues with the Catholic church was that the Pope was the only one able to interpret the Bible, whereas Luthor felt that he could justify his position by appealing to the Bible. It was a simple challenge to the authority of the Pope, by claiming the inerrent authority of the Bible. At the time there was no other choice. If the Pope was wrong, where would you get your authority. The only place Luthor had to go was an appeal to the Bible.>>

The vast majority of official Catholic dogma does not come from the Popes, but rather, from the Ecumenical Councils.

Hope this helps to clear up a few issues.

Grace and peace,

David

[thesometimesaint]

I have often wondered if all it takes to have the Authority from God is to read and believe the Bible. How can LDS be excluded, as we believe the Bible?

[Jolard]

David,

Thanks for the clarifications as to indulgences and Catholic doctrine. I am sure that in a podcast format they have to resort to generalities and can't fully flesh out the intricacies of the doctrine, so maybe that is where some of the confusion is setting in.

I get the feeling though that things in the 15th century Catholic church were very different than they are today. While I am not one to say that the Catholic Church is an abomination, as others have, I do believe that the modern church is far closer to the ideal than the church that existed in the 15th century. I am no expert, but some of the things those guys were getting up to were pretty "interesting".

So I guess what I am saying is that while the current doctrinal differences might not be as large, it seems that at least in the 15th century there was a larger difference.

This is a false dichotomy, for Catholics affirm that salvation is by faith; what we reject is the doctrine that it is by â??faith aloneâ?; a concept that is foreign to the Bible, and the teachings of the Church Fathers.

I agree that today the dichotomy is not as large, but according to the scholars on the podcast, it appears that it was larger at the time. That said, your statement is a pretty good reflection of what I believe as a Latter Day Saint. Faith is important, and without it we cannot be saved. But there is more to it than that.

I have often wondered if all it takes to have the Authority from God is to read and believe the Bible. How can LDS be excluded, as we believe the Bible?

I agree, this has always puzzled me too. If authority only comes from the book, then have we not authority too since we read and study and follow the Bible? The same applies to the idea of Salvation. If Salvation alone is in accepting Christ as our personal savior, and simply asking Christ to be our Savior is enough, then why would our baptism be invalid, since it is simply a way for us to ask to be called Christ's.

[Magyar]

Please note: It's Luther. Luthor is the bad dude from Superman.

[aaronshaf]

We also teach that Faith without Works is dead

This wouldn't be a point of contention between Mormons and Luther or most any evangelical. Luther and evangelicalism say that the only works God is interested in are those works which come from the heart having already been fully and freely forgiven by faith alone. Ironically, those who reject sola fide won't have any such works to show for.

[3DOP]

but that they also had Salvation as a whole on sale.

I think it is important to understand this from the POV of the Catholics---no, Salvation was not for sale though some may have perceived it that way: Myths about Indulgences

Hi calmoriah,

God bless you. I am sure you have done this many times that I have not seen. But God sees it. May He reward you for your integrity and honesty no matter which is the true church, or if there is a true church. Thank you. I extend to you all the brotherly love that can be offered over such a medium between members of different churches.

3DOP

[latterdayteancum]

We also teach that Faith without Works is dead

This wouldn't be a point of contention between Mormons and Luther or most any evangelical. Luther and evangelicalism say that the only works God is interested in are those works which come from the heart having already been fully and freely forgiven by faith alone. Ironically, those who reject sola fide won't have any such works to show for.

I pray the Lord doesn't banish me because I don't know what sola fide means!?!