The Correct Catholic View: Mormons Are Heretical Christians.

[johnny]

Tsuzuki,

Since when did incarnation at the time of institution become a factor in whether or not we believe that Christ instituted baptism?

In a Christian baptism is a person born of Spirit?

It is only after the incarnation that can a person be born of the Spirit ... without the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentcost their is no born of the Spirit.

[mickismommy]

Tsuzuki,

In a Christian baptism is a person born of Spirit?

It is only after the incarnation that can a person be born of the Spirit ... without the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentcost their is no born of the Spirit.

is pentecost in the bible? Where?

[Tsuzuki]

Tsuzuki,

In a Christian baptism is a person born of Spirit?

It is only after the incarnation that can a person be born of the Spirit ... without the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentcost their is no born of the Spirit.

LDS believe that the Trinity was also the same from the foundation of the world, and that the Holy Ghost existed in the days of Adam.

You're in my paradigm now.

[johnny]

mickismommy,

is pentecost in the bible? Where?

Try Acts 2:1

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

[mickismommy]

is pentecost in the bible? Where?

actually, I just found it, in Acts 2, but I dont see how this rules out instances of the Spirit of God before the day of Pentecost. My perspective is that the spirit was poured out upon them, like a greater abundance of it? Am I out in left field?

[David Waltz]

Dear Johnny,

You wrote:

>>Do you consider a Jehovah Witnesse[sic] Christian?>>

Heretical Christians for sure!!!

Arius is the great, great, greatâ?¦grandfather of the JWâ??s doctrine of God, he is without any doubt a heretic, a Christian heretic.

Joseph Smith Jr. had received a valid Christian baptism, but even before his visions, was a heretical Christianâ??he was never a member of Catholic Christianity, yet his beliefs, before and after he founded the CoJCoLDS are considered (by Catholic Christians), heretical Christian beliefsâ??no amount of pontificating will change these facts.

Grace and peace,

David

[johnny]

Tsuzuki,

LDS believe that the Trinity was also the same from the foundation of the world, and that the Holy Ghost existed in the days of Adam.

The Holy Ghost was not given till Jesus died, ascended, and was glorified.

Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

[Tsuzuki]

Am I out in left field?

Catholicism, yes, apparently.

Mormonism, no.

[johnny]

David Waltz,

Do you consider a Jehovah Witnesse Christian?

Do you consider a New Ager that "believes" in Jesus Christian?

When do you consider the Baptism of desire (see teaching below) to take place ... is it before or after death?

1260 Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery. Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

Would you consider the Baptism of desire as being "properly baptized"?

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all w

mickismommy,

I dont see how this rules out instances of the Spirit of God before the day of Pentecost.

The Holy Ghost was not given till Jesus died, ascended, and was glorified.

Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

[3DOP]

johnny

Do you consider a Jehovah Witnesse Christian?

Do you consider a New Ager that "believes" in Jesus Christian?

Rory

If it meant offending them by denying it, I would try to find ways that I could acknowledge that they were in some sense Christian. Surely we have a duty before God to tell people the truth, but we don't have an obligation to make it unpalatable. These narrow definitions of the word Christian are in my opinion unnecessarily alienating in dealing with LDS. I don't know which pope or council defined any exclusive definition of the word Christian. Do you?

Not to make Mormons comfortable as heretical Christians, but to acknowledge some important common principles and possibly share my faith, I gladly embrace them as fellow invalidly baptized heretical Christians. You really can't do that because of the catechism of Pope John Paul? If they think we hate them, or disdain them, they are not likely to listen to us johnny.

Part of the problem is that we are operating like Protestant Evangelicals. Evangelicals think being Christian is a ticket to eternal life. We know better. We have an obligation to make it clear to Mormons that culpably ignoring the Catholic faith is to endanger their souls whether they are Christian or not. We don't have to pile on top of that the idea that they don't even have any connection to historical Christianity. They believe in the stories of the historical Jesus in the Gospels that we have. They call themselves Christains. They really don't understand how Shelby Spong is a Christian yet they are in no sense of the word Christian. I agree with them! I have discoursed with you johnny, and I believe that you have good motives. I am not for watering down our faith. I just think it is imprudent and unnecessarily alienating to take a stand on this. Let the Protestants alienate the Mormons. The Church has never defined the word Christian and even if the CCC was infallible (it's not), it doesn't offer an exclusive definition of the word. An English dictionary on the other hand, offers many.

3DOP

[Tsuzuki]

Tsuzuki,

The Holy Ghost was not given till Jesus died, ascended, and was glorified.

Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

This does not say that the Holy Ghost did not exist as a person in the Trinity. And this could just be referring to the time period of Christ's ministry. Anyway, the Holy Ghost was certainly around for Christ's conception and baptism.

And we're still in the Mormon paradigm, remember. Mormons emphatically declare baptism to have been instituted by Christ.

[David Waltz]

Dear Johnny,

In this thread, post #81 -- at 8:14 PM, I already answered your redundant question; please note (READ) the following:

DW:>> Dear Johnny,

You wrote:

>>Do you consider a Jehovah Witnesse[sic] Christian?>>

Heretical Christians for sure!!!

Arius is the great, great, greatâ?¦grandfather of the JWâ??s doctrine of God, he is without any doubt a heretic, a Christian heretic.

Joseph Smith Jr. had received a valid Christian baptism, but even before his visions, was a heretical Christianâ??he was never a member of Catholic Christianity, yet his beliefs, before and after he founded the CoJCoLDS are considered (by Catholic Christians), heretical Christian beliefsâ??no amount of pontificating will change these facts.>>

Grace and peace,

David

[johnny]

3DOP,

I don't know which pope or council defined any exclusive definition of the word Christian. Do you?

What do you think the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was trying to define when it responded that a Mormon baptism is not valid?

David Waltz,

In this thread, post #81 -- at 8:14 PM, I already answered your redundant question; please note (READ) the following:

Sorry I missed that ... did you respond to my other questions on New Agers and Baptism of desire?

Tsuzuki,

Anyway, the Holy Ghost was certainly around for Christ's conception and baptism.

At that time a person was not able to be born of the Spirit. (NOTE: I edited this line because I forgot "not")

And we're still in the Mormon paradigm, remember. Mormons emphatically declare baptism to have been instituted by Christ.

I am still waiting for you to provid the official LDS doctrine.

[3DOP]

3DOPI don't know which pope or council defined any exclusive definition of the word Christian. Do you?

johnny

What do you think the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was trying to define when it responded that a Mormon baptism is not valid?

I have acknowledged the invalidity of LDS baptism. I already said that I embrace them as "fellow invalidly baptized heretical Christians". I have already written two lengthy posts to explain why I think Catholics would be wise to grant the term Christian to Latter Day Saints even though they lack sacramental baptism. It is not a pope or council, but apparently you think the Congregation was trying to define Mormons as in every sense non-Christian. I do not think that for a moment. I guess, we will have to disagree about this question. I truly hope you have good success in your efforts to bring Mormons into the Catholic Church.

3DOP

[Tsuzuki]

Tsuzuki,

At that time a person was able to be born of the Spirit.

Subjective answer: You records are lacking.

Objective answer: Mormons think your records are lacking.

I am still waiting for you to provid the official LDS doctrine.

Are you an idiot?

Go here.

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showto...entry1208049220

[The Traveler]

Why Catholics should consider Mormons as heretical Christians, and not as non-Christians

IMHO, the The Catholic Encyclopedia is quite clear on this matter; I cannot fathom how any Catholic, after reading the above, can continue to maintain that Mormons are something other than heretical Christians.

Grace and peace,

David

I'm sure glad that Catholics have quit killing heretical Christians and Pagans and such - or at least that they do not have the political power to do such things in our "enligntened" era.

The Traveler

[Tsuzuki]

I truly hope you have good success in your efforts to bring Mormons into the Catholic Church.

Don't worry. This Mormon is finding the Catholic Church to be very attractive, despite johnny's best efforts to show the contrary. I attend mass as often as I can with my Catholic fiancee. It is wonderful.

[johnny]

3DOP,

I truly hope you have good success in your efforts to bring Mormons into the Catholic Church.

I wonder how successfully the early church council was in bringing in heretical Christians when they wrote the Athanasian Creed ... the creed stated:

"This is the catholic faith: ....there are not three gods; there is but one God ... This is the catholic faith: one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully."

Maybe this early church council believed that heretical Christians "wound the unity of Christ's Body (CCC817)."

This words of the Athanasian Creed appear to be consistent with the words of EWTN, the Catholic TV station,:

A christian is one who believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity, and that he died for our sins, and rose from the grave. A Christian believes that we have the hope of eternal life through faith in His life, death and resurrection. A Christian is baptized with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. These teachings put mormons outside the Christian faith because Mormons do not believe these things. Mormons believe that there are many gods, but the ancient faith of Isreal and of Christians professes "Hear O Isreal: The lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might" (Dueteronomy 6: 4-5) Christians do not recognize the Book of Mormon as a text inspired by God. There are other differences that would cause one to say that Mormons are not Christians, they are Mormons. These truths are said not in condemnation, but simply stated as truth. All Christians, Mormons, Muslims, and all humanity are dependent upon the grace and mercy of God...

[why me]

I have acknowledged the invalidity of LDS baptism. I already said that I embrace them as "fellow invalidly baptized heretical Christians". I have already written two lengthy posts to explain why I think Catholics would be wise to grant the term Christian to Latter Day Saints even though they lack sacramental baptism. It is not a pope or council, but apparently you think the Congregation was trying to define Mormons as in every sense non-Christian. I do not think that for a moment. I guess, we will have to disagree about this question. I truly hope you have good success in your efforts to bring Mormons into the Catholic Church.

3DOP

I was born catholic and joined the lds faith at 18. I am now attending catholic meetings and meeting great people. No one is calling anyone non-christian. I wanted to keep my Mormon background secret but decided not to when one young man began to tell me about the mormon missionaries. He wasn't negative, but then again I thought I should interrupt him and tell him my story. There was no problem.

However, if any of these catholics begin to say that Mormons are not christians, well...I will defend, defend and defend that the lds are christian regardless of the catholic catechism. But that is me. As I have been saying, no one has the right to call someone not a christian if that person claims otherwise. Only problems will develop when such name calling happens.

[johnny]

why me,

if any of these catholics begin to say that Mormons are not christians, well...I will defend, defend and defend that the lds are christian regardless of the catholic catechism. But that is me.

I can relate with your feelings ... if any Mormon begins to say that the Catholic Church is false and its creeds are an abomination like Joseph Smith taught, well ... I will defend, defend, and defend that the Catholic Church is true and its creeds are truths. But that is me.

johnny

[mickismommy]

Okay. Trinity doctrine.

Lets get it perfectly clear that the idea of Trinity is not "One God with three faces or Modes" that is Modalism, and it is just as heretical as what us Mormons profess. Modalism basically comes down to the idea that The Father was on the cross, because The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same person, in that theology.

The Trinity, according to Wikipedia, states that:

God is a single Being who exists, simultaneously and eternally, as a perichoresis of three persons (personae, prosopa): Father (the Source, the Eternal Majesty); the Son (the eternal Logos or Word, incarnate as Jesus of Nazareth); and the Holy Spirit (the Paraclete or advocate)

Basically the three members of the Godhead exist, physically, within one another.

This is an idea that came about in the 4th century AD, after much confusion and debate over how to reconcile the point that the OT states "One God" emphatically, and the fact of the divine nature of Christ.

400 years after the advent of Christ. That is when the term Trinity came into being. Mormons like to use the biblical term "Godhead" because it is biblical and not a tradition of man.

This is my take on the Mormon idea about the Godhead. I may be wrong, but I think that I am fairly close to getting it right.

First, this is what the LDS Bible dictionary says:

There are three separate persons in the Godhead: God, the Eternal Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost. We believe in each of them (A of F 1: 1). From latter-day revelation we learn that the Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bone and that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, without flesh and bone (D&C 130: 22-23). These three persons are one in perfect unity and harmony of purpose and doctrine (John 17: 21-23; 2 Ne. 31: 21; 3 Ne. 11: 27, 36).

Perfect unity and harmony. To the point that Christ can be considered the Word. Father God speaks, Christ does it. Perfect, beyond any unity that mankind could even understand. We believe in physical individuality and perfect oneness of will. That is how we reconcile there being no other God beside the One true God, and the eternally divine nature of Christ. Their Oneness is so perfect that they can truely be considered One God.

Heretical according to the Catholic Creed? perhaps. But it is based on scripture. We just tend to read the bible from a different perspective because we also believe in the modern day revelation and the continuation of revelation. We feel that the Doctrine and Covenents clarify what is otherwise ponderous and perplexing to us today.

You don't have to agree with me, I just wanted to put our terms and the center of each of our beliefs out there make sure everyone knows what is what.

Your sister in Christ,

Mickismommy

[consiglieri]

I think the time is long past to congratulate the Catholic Church on the positive changes it has made to its organization, especially as to how Catholics relate to fellow Christians with whom they disagree. Today, they call them heretics. Yesterday, they called them heretics . . . then burned them.

Baby steps. Baby steps.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[johnny]

consiglieri,

Thanks ... The true Church of Christ will not be perfected in glory without great trials.

johnny

[Magyar]

Hey, I can accept being called a heretic. Paul, in the Bible, noted that he got the same label slapped upon himself by his critics.

As for the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I can't believe that any Christian would believe that it never happened before Pentecost! What was the Holy Ghost doing for the last four thousand years or so, playing golf? Every human being before Pentecost never received that baptism? Where the blazes are they for the eternies, then, damned by mere chronology? What was that thing called the Spirit of God in the Old Testament, some kind of beverage?

[johnny]

Magyar,

I can't believe that any Christian would believe that it never happened before Pentecost!

Could you provide some Biblical scriptures to support your belief ...