The Correct Catholic View: Mormons Are Heretical Christians.

[Tsuzuki]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Christian-lineage.png

[johnny]

Catholic Guy,

"Heretical Christian" is the only definition that fits the LDS Church and anything else would be absurd.

When the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith gave its response that a Mormon baptism is not valid was it because of "heretical" reasons? How did this Catholic Congregation view Mormons?

THE QUESTION OF THE VALIDITY OF BAPTISM CONFERRED IN THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

http://www.ewtn.com/library/Theology/MORMBAP1.HTM

[Catholic Guy]

Catholic Guy,

When the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith gave its response that a Mormon baptism is not valid was it because of "heretical" reasons? How did this Catholic Congregation view Mormons?

THE QUESTION OF THE VALIDITY OF BAPTISM CONFERRED IN THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

http://www.ewtn.com/library/Theology/MORMBAP1.HTM

Johnny,

I understand that the LDS Baptism is not considered a valid Christian Baptism. What would you consider it, an in-valid Christian baptism or would it be considered an invalid Hindu, Jewish, ect. Baptism?

Catholic Guy

[johnny]

Catholic Guy,

I would consider it a non-Christian baptism since Mormons hold that there is no real Trinity, no original sin, and that Christ did not institute baptism.

johnny

[Geaux LSU]

I certainly do not want to offend my Catholic friends on this board but I have to address a huge elephant in this room.

I am having a most difficult time accepting the fact that certain members of the RCC would declare the LDS church non-Christian because we do not accept this trinity doctrine that the RCC maintains one must believe in order to be considered Christian - yet certain members of the RCC apparently have no problem with the RCC's handling of the molestation cases.

Where is the outrage at the current Pope and what has been revealed recently about his participation of his attempts to hide the molestation and to force the victims to remain silent by threat of excommunication. Where is God, Christ and the Holy Ghost in this one? These are the same men performing the baptisms?

With the arrogance being displayed on this thread by certain members of the RCC, I think before they begin harping that we are non-Christians they may want to take a look at their own leaders and figure out which master they serve before they concern themselves with ours.

But that's just me.

Go ahead - begin the throwing.

Let's try to stay on topic please.

-Mod

[Tsuzuki]

...no real Trinity

Difference in vocabulary.

...no original sin

Difference in understanding.

...and that Christ did not institute baptism.

Where did you get that one from?

[Kenngo1969]

Hmmmm, and this statement from Docrick wouldn't be smug posturing directed at us [Roman Catholics]?

But hey, I guess I should take it is stride because every single person I baptized on my mission was Catholic.

Iâ??m not sure, exactly, why you, or Iâ??or anyone else, for that matterâ??should dismiss Docrickâ??s statement as â??smug posturing.â? Because heâ??s lying? Because former Roman Catholics couldnâ??t possibly be happy in, or genuinely committed to, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Because no one else should have the temerity to be happy for former Roman Catholics who say they have found happiness in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Sorry, but I really don't get it. Guess Iâ??m just dense.

Your statements about the converts Docrick taught on his mission, however, contain several baseless assumptions/assertions. They were â??suckered into itâ? (my phrase, but an apt characterization, I think, of what you believe happened); they donâ??t have real faith inâ??or even knowledge ofâ??the Churchâ??s (real) doctrines; they just immediately went inactive; yada-yada. Nope. Sorry. I only see one person engaging in smug posturing here, and it ainâ??t Docrick.

By the way, best wishes to you and your daughter tomorrow as she undergoes surgery. As a veteran of several operations myself (though none that occurred under particularly life-threatening circumstances) and as the son of parents whose son has been through that, I wish you and your daughter well. Let us know how things turn out, if youâ??re so inclined (I know: this is an anonymous message board, and different people are comfortable with different levels of self-disclosure â?¦)

[johnny]

Tsuzuki,

Where did you get that one from?

From the Book of Moses 6:64 (see link below for more information)

http://www.ewtn.com/library/Theology/MORMBAP1.HTM

[Catholic Guy]

I certainly do not want to offend my Catholic friends on this board but I have to address a huge elephant in this room.

I am having a most difficult time accepting the fact that certain members of the RCC would declare the LDS church non-Christian because we do not accept this trinity doctrine that the RCC maintains one must believe in order to be considered Christian - yet certain members of the RCC apparently have no problem with the RCC's handling of the molestation cases.

Where is the outrage at the current Pope and what has been revealed recently about his participation of his attempts to hide the molestation and to force the victims to remain silent by threat of excommunication. Where is God, Christ and the Holy Ghost in this one? These are the same men performing the baptisms?

With the arrogance being displayed on this thread by certain members of the RCC, I think before they begin harping that we are non-Christians they may want to take a look at their own leaders and figure out which master they serve before they concern themselves with ours.

But that's just me.

Go ahead - begin the throwing.

LSU,

What does this have to do with the topic of the thread? The only bomb throwing came from your post.

[mickismommy]

Johnny,

Your sig line is of a translation that I do not recognise. This is the KJV of John 1: 1&14

"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. "

I don't want to get into our different interpratations of this scripture, but I thought I'd point out that your translation sorta takes away all of the poetry and beauty in John. I thought Id share with you the majesty and beauty of the Bible in the KJV.

Jenn

[Tsuzuki]

Tsuzuki,

From the Book of Moses 6:64 (see link below for more information)

http://www.ewtn.com/library/Theology/MORMBAP1.HTM

"And it came to pass, when the Lord had spoken with Adam, our father, that Adam cried unto the Lord, and he was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord, and was carried down into the water, and was laid under the water, and was brought forth out of the water." - Moses 6:64

Call me stupid, but it looks like Christ is instituting baptism right there in that verse.

[johnny]

mickismommy.

Thank you for taking the time and sharing that with me ... I also like the beauty of KJV.

johnny

Tsuzuki,

Call me stupid, but it looks like Christ is instituting baptism right there in that verse.

Since this is getting off-topic. I will post a short response and leave it at that.

Look at verse 65 ... Adam is getting baptized, born of the Spirit, and quickened before Christ sends the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost.

65 And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was born of the Spirit, and became quickened in the inner man.

[mickismommy]

mickismommy.

Thank you for taking the time and sharing that with me ... I also like the beauty of KJV.

johnny

no problem. I just think that we get lost in arguing about our differences when we should be focusing on the scriptures and the salvation that is to be had through Christ. If I am wrong in my faith, then I will find out one day, if you you are wrong, you will find out. In my opinion, we all fall short of knowing all the aspects of God, and I feel that His love will be more than enough to reconcile His followers unto Him.

"For God so Loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son..."

Ehh, what do I know, Im just a heretic.

Jenn

[Catholic Guy]

David Waltz,

Why do you consider Mormons heretical, isn't a heresy "post-baptismal" (see offical Catholic teaching below)? Mormons do not make it as far as "baptismal" since their baptisms are not valid.

The Catholic Catechism defines heresy as:

2089 - Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith;

Valintinius' followers were more than likely baptized with the same problems of a valid Christian baptism as the LDS members are. Valentinius' followers were considered a heretical Christian sect. Since Valentinius was a Baptized Christian who started the heresy and his followers were not validly baptized, then a good question would be, was Joseph Smith a validly baptized Christian?

[Tsuzuki]

Tsuzuki,

Since this is getting off-topic. I will post a short response and leave it at that.

Look at verse 65 ... Adam is getting baptized, born of the Spirit, and quickened before Christ sends the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost.

65 And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was born of the Spirit, and became quickened in the inner man.

Isn't it wonderful that Adam was baptized by Christ, and that Christ's Gospel is the same from the foundation of the world? Isn't it also wonderful that Christ Himself was baptized by John the Baptist?

So, yes. We Mormons believe that baptism was instituted by Christ. You can scratch it off your list.

[johnny]

Catholic Guy,

Valentinius' followers were considered a heretical Christian sect. Since Valentinius was a Baptized Christian who started the heresy and his followers were not validly baptized,

This is my understanding of heresy ... you must of been Christian baptized then deny a truth which must believed.

then a good question would be, was Joseph Smith a validly baptized Christian?

Good point ... Joseph Smith most likely had a valid baptized before he declared that the historical apostolic churches were wrong and their creeds were an abomination.

Tsuzuki,

Isn't it wonderful that Adam was baptized by Christ,

Christ could not have baptized Adam because he was the Word of God prior to his incarnation.

We Mormons believe that baptism was instituted by Christ. You can scratch it off your list.

On the day of Pentecost Christ instituted baptism. Before the day of Pentecost it was not possiable for a person to born of the Spirit. The Book of Moses reveals Adam being born of the Spirit, this is not possiable because the Spirit was not sent till the day of Pentecost.

[Tsuzuki]

Tsuzuki,

Christ could not have baptized Adam because he was the Word of God prior to his incarnation.

On the day of Pentecost Christ instituted baptism. Before the day of Pentecost it was not possiable for a person to born of the Spirit. The Book of Moses reveals Adam being born of the Spirit, this is not possiable because the Spirit was not sent till the day of Pentecost.

I thought we were talking about LDS beliefs here. It is among the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that Jesus Christ instituted the ordinance of baptism. You can argue on the specifics of when and where, but you cannot say that we don't believe one of our core doctrines.

[johnny]

Tsuzuki,

I thought we were talking about LDS beliefs here. It is among the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that Jesus Christ instituted the ordinance of baptism.

Please provide the official LDS doctrine that reveals that Christ instituted the ordinance of baptism because LDS scriptures reveal otherwise.

[3DOP]

It is not that big a thing for Catholics to grant that Mormons are heretical Christians.

Christians go to hell anyway, especially the heretical ones. The Catholic Church still says that you have to die in a state of grace to go to heaven. It isn't like David Waltz is assigning Joseph Smith a seat at God's right hand. They're still heretics.

Yes, Mormons who convert are baptized. Previously, conditional baptism was the norm. Would any Catholics say that the current practice of the Catholic Church is irreformable? If we say they're Christians it doesn't lessen the need for them to become Catholic Christians if they would have a good hope of eternal life, right?

The word Christian has a wide variety of meanings. I don't have the energy to make a list. Without lying before God, without giving offense to the Catholic faith, without making qualifications, I can think of ways with a clear conscience to say to Mormons that they are Christians. Certainly, the catechism is correct in saying that through valid sacrametal baptism, we share the name of Christian with a whole bunch of liberal and loony "Christians" that haven't even retained a sense of the supernatural as Mormons have. That does not mean that valid sacramental baptism is the only way by which one can be legitimately identified as Christian. Mormons have a whole host of things right that our validly baptized fellow Christians in the Anglican Church have totally wrong. Among other reasons for granting the status of Christian to Mormons, they can be traced to Protestant Christianity historically, and they self-identify as Christian. I don't believe for a moment that the catechism of John Paul II was intended by him or its authors to make such an exclusive Catholic definition of the term Christian, as those who oppose David Waltz on this issue are trying to say when they want to limit it to those who are with certainty validly baptised.

Why do some of you Catholics seem to want to slam the door in that? You're sounding like disaffected Mormons who convert to evangelicalism. Why do you seem to want to narrow the meaning of Christian to the point that we have to be "offenders for a word"? Let me lay my cards on the table. I am one of those allegedly ultra-radical right wing nuts who supposedly attend a schismatic liturgy since I usually avoid the Novus Ordo in favor of an SSPX chapel. (What do you think of the reports the Holy Father is going to free up the Traditional Mass? Praised be God!! Thank you forever Pope Benedict, if this is finally going to happen.) It isn't like I am in love with Vatican II. But you guys, who actually think Vatican II is definitive doctrinally don't have a leg to stand on. Thankfully, from my "dark and triumphalist" perspective Catholic Tradition is nowhere near as intolerant and alienating as your brand of post-Vatican II ecumenism.

[Tsuzuki]

Tsuzuki,

Please provide the official LDS doctrine that reveals that Christ instituted the ordinance of baptism because LDS scriptures reveal otherwise.

Moses 6:64-65

64 And it came to pass, when the Lord had spoken with Adam, our father, that Adam cried unto the Lord, and he was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord, and was carried down into the water, and was laid under the water, and was brought forth out of the water.

65 And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was born of the Spirit, and became quickened in the inner man.

Ether 3:7-16

7 And the Lord saw that the brother of Jared had fallen to the earth; and the Lord said unto him: Arise, why hast thou fallen?

8 And he saith unto the Lord: I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me; for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.

9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

10 And he answered: Nay; Lord, show thyself unto me.

11 And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?

12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.

16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

And in case you can't put two and two together, "The Lord" refers to Christ.

[johnny]

Catholic Guy,

When do you consider the Baptism of desire (see teaching below) to take place ... is it before or after death?

1260 Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery. Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

Would you consider the Baptism of desire as being "properly baptized"?

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."

johnny

Tsuzuki,

And in case you can't put two and two together, "The Lord" refers to Christ.

Could you put this together with an offical LDS doctrine stating that the incarnate Jesus instituted the ordinance of baptism ... thanks.

[Tsuzuki]

Tsuzuki,

Could you put this together with an offical LDS doctrine stating that the incarnate Jesus instituted the ordinance of baptism ... thanks.

Since when did incarnation at the time of institution become a factor in whether or not we believe that Christ instituted baptism?

[Redeemed]

Num 20:11 And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts [also].

Jesus Christ "the Rock of my salvation".

redeemed

1Cr 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

[johnny]

3DOP,

That does not mean that valid sacramental baptism is the only way by which one can be legitimately identified as Christian.

Do you consider a Jehovah Witnesse Christian?

Do you consider a New Ager that "believes" in Jesus Christian?

[mickismommy]

I think we should let Christ decide who is and isn't Christian!

jeesh!

Jenn