consiglieri Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 consiglieri,Thanks ... The true Church of Christ will not be perfected in glory without great trials. johnnyI agree with you, Johnny. But I am not sure precisely what you mean. Was it the Catholic Church that went through "great trials" when they burned people as heretics?All the Best!--Consiglieri"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!" --John Cleese
Magyar Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 Magyar,Could you provide some Biblical scriptures to support your belief ...At the risk of playing tar baby with you again, Johnny, you cannot be unaware of the many times that the Spirit was noted as dwelling within persons in the Old Testament, whether implicitly or explicitly, such as Joseph ben Israel. How is this explained if the Spirit was off snoozing somewhere, awaiting the Pentacostal alarm clock?Did all the prophets of the Old Testament carry out their missions from God and write down His inspired word never having been baptized of the Holy Spirit? If so, tell me what is the point of said Spirit and said baptism anyway? And not having had it during their mortal lives, WHERE are they now? Is Elijah in hell because he missed out on the Pentacostal party?
johnny Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 Magyar, dwelling within persons in the Old TestamentDwelling within a person is not the same as be born of the Spirit.write down His inspired word never having been baptized of the Holy Spirit?Those inspired are not necessarily "born of the Spirit."If so, tell me what is the point of said Spirit and said baptism anyway? Those born of the spirit become an adopted son of God, a new creature, and a temple for the Holy Spirit. Those born of the Spirit are incorporated into the Body of Christ.Is Elijah in hell because he missed out on the Pentacostal party?Some in the Old Testament had to wait in Spirit prison till Christ died. After Christ died he descended into hell bringing the Gospel message to those imprisoned.
Magyar Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 Magyar,Dwelling within a person is not the same as be born of the Spirit.Those inspired are not necessarily "born of the Spirit."Those born of the spirit become an adopted son of God, a new creature, and a temple for the Holy Spirit. Those born of the Spirit are incorporated into the Body of Christ.Some in the Old Testament had to wait in Spirit prison till Christ died. After Christ died he descended into hell bringing the Gospel message to those imprisoned.Okay. Thanks for your reply. But it does seem rather odd to me that the unchanging God of all the universe tossed every single human being ever born before Pentecost into Spirit Prison, because the Holy Ghost hadn't yet taken up baptismal duties. You say "some." Your logic can only lead to "all," since "none" were ever baptized by the Holy Ghost. Granted, inspiration by the Holy Spirit does not always mean baptism by the Holy Spirit. But I find it odd that, according to you, not one of the Old Testament prophets, valiant as they were in defense of truth, beholding the very face of God, fully authorized by God to do various miracles and lead His people, ever received the baptism of the Spirit. Again, what is the point of it if one can see the very face of God, part the waters, and be acclaimed His friend, without it?
Tsuzuki Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 What was that thing called the Spirit of God in the Old Testament, some kind of beverage?
Tsuzuki Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 I wonder when johnny is going to acknowledge the fact that I provided official LDS doctrine.
consiglieri Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 I wonder when Johnny is going to explain how the Catholic Church experienced "great trials" when it was burning heretics!All the Best!--Consiglieri
Tsuzuki Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 I wonder when Johnny is going to explain how the Catholic Church experienced "great trials" when it was burning heretics!All the Best!--ConsiglieriIt was a trial of character... which it failed.
rhinomelon Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 I wonder when Johnny is going to explain how the Catholic Church experienced "great trials" when it was burning heretics!Sometimes great trials are of our own making. We get through them by acknowledging our mistakes and sins and returning again to the grace and mercy of God (which the Catholic Church has done in spades). The LDS Church is not immune to such trials either, in my opinion. It will be interesting to see how 24th century Mormons view the actions and issues of 20th century LDS (if we're all still here by then). Take care, everyone
Geaux LSU Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 LSU,What does this have to do with the topic of the thread? The only bomb throwing came from your post.It has everything to do with this thread.I am watching certain Catholics on this thread argue that we LDS are in fact not Christians as supposedly declared by a corrupt leader of the RCC many moons ago - because we do not accept a confusing doctrine that was instituted by force and intimidation and generations later is now accepted as doctrine - whereas before it was, IMHO nothing more than forced indoctrination that has carried over.I happen to be one of those LDS married to a Catholic and I thank God I am not married to one of the few Catholics I see on here declaring us non-Christian and using their interpretation of Church writing to justify their arrogant and pompous attitude.You know, I read a lot at other "Christian" websites. I find it fascinating that some Catholics will gladly accept as Christians those same groups that refer to Catholics as "pagans" that, like LDS, "worship another Jesus."One Catholic on here had it right. If there is any hope of converting to the Catholic Church it will not come about in this manner. Were I to leave the church today there are many I would not join simply because of how I was treated and the lies that were told while I was a member of the LDS church.By their fruits...
docrick Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 Sometimes great trials are of our own making. We get through them by acknowledging our mistakes and sins and returning again to the grace and mercy of God (which the Catholic Church has done in spades). The LDS Church is not immune to such trials either, in my opinion. It will be interesting to see how 24th century Mormons view the actions and issues of 20th century LDS (if we're all still here by then). Take care, everyone Are you suggesting that the LDS Church has done or will do anything comparable with the Crusades and Inquisition?I agree the Catholic Church does much good in the world and I'm grateful for that. I don't even have a problem with institutional repentance and return to living Christlike lives.The central issue however is Mormons being Heretical Christians. I must conclude that the Catholic Faith, which is wholly based on Nicene creed philosophy and theology, is because of widespread institutional approval (from the highest levels) of genocide (crucades and inquisition) not lead by God and never was. Thus any theology based on the Nicene Creed (traditional Christianity) to me is heretical.LDS theology is the gospel as taught by the Savior and His prophets; thus it is the original "christianity" or gospel.
consiglieri Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 Sometimes great trials are of our own making. We get through them by acknowledging our mistakes and sins and returning again to the grace and mercy of God (which the Catholic Church has done in spades). The LDS Church is not immune to such trials either, in my opinion. It will be interesting to see how 24th century Mormons view the actions and issues of 20th century LDS (if we're all still here by then). Take care, everyone Hi, Rhino!The problem I have with what Johnny said is looking at the shoe on the other foot; for example, I would consider it unusual for a Mormon to say that the LDS church went through "great trials" in the Mountain Meadow Massacre. It sort of stands reason on its head, or "makes reason stare" in the words of the LDS hymn. I confess to having difficulty when the perpetrators of heinous acts claim victim status.But that's probably just me.And so far, I haven't seen Johnny rushing in to explain that the real victims were the people at the stake, not the people with the Bic lighters. Perhaps heretics are never victims?All the Best!--Consiglieri
Magyar Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 Sometimes great trials are of our own making. We get through them by acknowledging our mistakes and sins and returning again to the grace and mercy of God (which the Catholic Church has done in spades). The LDS Church is not immune to such trials either, in my opinion. It will be interesting to see how 24th century Mormons view the actions and issues of 20th century LDS (if we're all still here by then). Take care, everyone Not to derail, but if any of us are still here in the 24th century and it's still "business as usual," I don't think that any faith wedded to the physical return of Jesus Christ will have any following at all. It's got to happen within this century, the clear turning point of two millennia since Christ's mortal ministry, seems to me.
mickismommy Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 Not to derail, but if any of us are still here in the 24th century and it's still "business as usual," I don't think that any faith wedded to the physical return of Jesus Christ will have any following at all. It's got to happen within this century, the clear turning point of two millennia since Christ's mortal ministry, seems to me.I don't see the reasoning behind that. People have been looking for Christ to return ever since He acsended to heaven, and people have said "it's gotta happen this century" since that time. Yet, we still believe. It will happen in God's time, not ours. Our job is to look forward to it and prepare ourselves for it, whenever it will happen. Jenn
rhinomelon Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 Not to derail, but if any of us are still here in the 24th century and it's still "business as usual," I don't think that any faith wedded to the physical return of Jesus Christ will have any following at all. It's got to happen within this century, the clear turning point of two millennia since Christ's mortal ministry, seems to me.Sounds like what they were saying around 1000 AD I confess to having difficulty when the perpetrators of heinous acts claim victim status.I don't see where johnny was claiming "victim status". And I think it is clear that God works through people even when they get themselves in trouble. I can think of many examples (including David, Peter, Jonah, etc.). And contra docrick, even gross sin, when repented of, does not automatically and irreversibly disqualify anyone from truly serving God. Otherwise we'd all be in trouble! Are you suggesting that the LDS Church has done or will do anything comparable with the Crusades and Inquisition?Not on that scale, of course. But the LDS Church is not a perfect organization, and it has made mistakes. I must conclude that the Catholic Faith, which is wholly based on Nicene creed philosophy and theology, is because of widespread institutional approval (from the highest levels) of genocide (crucades and inquisition) not lead by God and never was. Thus any theology based on the Nicene Creed (traditional Christianity) to me is heretical.This would be a classic example of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I am watching certain Catholics on this thread argue that we LDS are in fact not Christians as supposedly declared by a corrupt leader of the RCC many moons ago - because we do not accept a confusing doctrine that was instituted by force and intimidation and generations later is now accepted as doctrine - whereas before it was, IMHO nothing more than forced indoctrination that has carried over.Do you have any references regarding the Nicene Creed being imposed by force? I think you will find that just the opposite actually occurred when the Arians gained political power. It was the rank and file of the Church that kept the Trinity, in the face of persecution; it was not forced on them by power-hungry "trinitarians". Just some food for thought. Take care, everyone
Tsuzuki Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 Hi, Rhino!The problem I have with what Johnny said is looking at the shoe on the other foot; for example, I would consider it unusual for a Mormon to say that the LDS church went through "great trials" in the Mountain Meadow Massacre. It sort of stands reason on its head, or "makes reason stare" in the words of the LDS hymn. I confess to having difficulty when the perpetrators of heinous acts claim victim status.But that's probably just me.And so far, I haven't seen Johnny rushing in to explain that the real victims were the people at the stake, not the people with the Bic lighters. Perhaps heretics are never victims?All the Best!--Consiglieri"When Saint Dominic and Saint Pius V tortured dissident Christians, these martyred Christians having been readmitted by virtue of their shed blood into the great catholic assembly of Heaven, were no doubt welcomed into the ranks of the blessed spirits with cries of amazement and pity, and the terrible sleepwalkers of the inquisition would not have been excused when pleading, before the supreme judge, that they had been raving in their sleep.Perverting the human conscience, quenching the spirit and slandering reason, persecuting the wise and opposing the progress of knowledge, these are are the real mortal sins, sins against the Holy Spirit which can never be forgiven, neither in this world nor in the world to come."- Eliphas Levi, The Great Secret
rhinomelon Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 - Eliphas Levi, The Great SecretI think it's odd that you would go to a pseudo-Catholic occultist/practicer-of-magick for "evidence" on the evils of the Catholic Church. Why not try history? Seldom as dramatic, but more down-to-earth... Take care
mickismommy Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 Wow this thread derailed, didn't it! No name calling, kids! Mommy
Tsuzuki Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 I think it's odd that you would go to a pseudo-Catholic occultist/practicer-of-magick for "evidence" on the evils of the Catholic Church. Why not try history? Seldom as dramatic, but more down-to-earth... Take care Alphonse Louis Constant and his kind are what redeems the Catholic Church in my eyes, and are the reason why I wish to embrace Catholicism. Any religion that can produce such great individuals as those is worth investigating."I know that a good many of my readers charge me with contradiction; they do not understand that I uphold the Catholic Church with one hand, and with the other strike out without pity at all the errors and all the abuses which have been, and still are, produced in its name and under its wing. Blind Catholics are shocked by my bold interpretations, and the self-styled freethinkers take umbrage at what they call my weakness for a religion which has fallen into disrepute because they have left it, or so they think. I am equally out of favour with the Christians of Veuillot and the philosophers who follow Proudhon. I am not surprised, I was expecting it, I do not distress myself over it, I do not even glory in it. I should much prefer to please everybody because I have a sincere love for all men, but when I have to choose between the truth and the esteem of anyone whoever, even one of my dearest friends, I shall always choose the truth." - Eliphas Levi, The Great Secret
consiglieri Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 Eliphas Levi sounds like a righteous dude. Kind of reminds me of Hugh Nibley.All the Best!--Consiglieri
Tsuzuki Posted October 12, 2006 Posted October 12, 2006 Eliphas Levi sounds like a righteous dude. Kind of reminds me of Hugh Nibley.All the Best!--ConsiglieriThat he is.
Hammer Posted October 13, 2006 Posted October 13, 2006 Just because the title of this thread used the word Catholic view, I have wondered something and maybe someone could explain it to me.In Luke 2: 23 it teaches this: 23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the awomb shall be called holy to the Lord;) Shall be? or is be? original sin?Is original sin really valid scripturally?
mannisue Posted October 16, 2006 Posted October 16, 2006 "Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!" --John Cleesepsst. . . Consig! Not to be a picker of nits, but. . . it was Michael Palin who said it.
consiglieri Posted October 16, 2006 Posted October 16, 2006 psst. . . Consig! Not to be a picker of nits, but. . . it was Michael Palin who said it. I wondered if there might be some frequenter of this board who would know which of the Monty Python Troop actually uttered the phrase, but I went ahead with my best guess anyway.No problem with the nit-picking. Good catch! Feel free to groom me on the Serenghetti any time.All the Best!--Consiglieri
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