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GAs decended from Christ?


bjw

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I read on a couple sites (not antis) that the church teaches that the general authorities are literally the direct decendants of Jesus Christ. In two Journal of Discourses sermons from Volume 4 (listed below) it seems to confirm this. The third site quotes the two JoD sermons and a book by a Mormon apostle. (about halfway down) This sounds very strange and I was wondering if maybe it was something that went the way of the Adam-God doctrine and was abandoned by the church at a later point. This would also explain why the church uses the Merovingian beehive symbol. Also, how can this doctrine be explained in the Scriptures?

http://journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_04/refJDvol4-49.html

http://journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_04/refJDvol4-47.html

http://www.geocities.com/jesuskids2003/des...antsofjesus.htm

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The Beehive comes from the Book of Ether in the Book of Mormon.

Ether 2: 3 And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee; and thus they did carry with them swarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, seeds of every kind.

And if it doesn't shock you too much, there is a prevalent view among many that Church members in general, not just General Authorities, are literal descendants of Christ. If you believe that Mary Magdalene was Jesus' wife, and had a child with Him, and you do your genealogy, you are mostly likely descended through that line. Most people with any European ancestry are.

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And if it doesn't shock you too much, there is a prevalent view among many that Church members in general, not just General Authorities, are literal descendants of Christ. If you believe that Mary Magdalene was Jesus' wife, and had a child with Him, and you do your genealogy, you are mostly likely descended through that line. Most people with any European ancestry are.

Charity,

I love you to death, but :P<_<:unsure::ph34r: ??????

I've been a member of the Church almost fifteen years and never heard this.

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selek, this is based partly on the same theory as the DaVinci Code, which is why I said IF you believe. . . But the genealogy is there. It is the basis for the ruling claims of the earliest monarchies in Europe. Anyone who can trace their lineage back into Europe prior to 1750, will hook into the royal lineages. It isn't hard. Those were the only ones kept back into the medieval times. And thus the person is of the literal blood of Christ. According to that theory. 20 generations back you have 2 million ancestors. The chances are pretty good.

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bjw,

GAs decended from Christ?, Is this still doctrine?

Has this been established as "doctrine?" That should be addressed before we ask if it is "still" doctrine.

I read on a couple sites (not antis) that the church teaches that the general authorities are literally the direct decendants of Jesus Christ. In two Journal of Discourses sermons from Volume 4 (listed below) it seems to confirm this.

I read through the first link. What portion of it did you have in mind? I found the following statement (from Orson Hyde's sermon - JOD 4:257) interesting:

Is there no way provided for those to come into this covenant relation who may not possess, in their veins, any of the blood of Abraham or of Christ? Yes! By doing the works of Abraham and of Christ in the faith of Abraham and of Christ; not in unbelief and unrighteousness, like the wicked world who have damned themselves in their own corruption and unbelief. If thou wilt believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and repent of thy sins, and put them all away, and forsake them for ever, and turn unto the Lord our God, and serve Him with all thy might, mind, and strength, the Holy Ghost will change thy vile body, quicken and renew thy spirit and natural system, so that thou shalt lay off or overcome that fallen nature which is in the body with its sins, and be created anew in Christ Jesus, with a new heart and a new spirit, even the Holy Ghost; this will cause your spirits to cry, Abba, Father. Your lips may even now cry, "Abba, Father;" but your spirit cannot until it is renovated; and lip service, you know, is mockery before God. We are to worship God in spirit and in truth, and with the understanding also. But if you wish to destroy us for doing the works of Abraham and of Christ, know ye that God will curse you; and neither He nor His people will allow you to have any part in the covenant of promise; and neither in Abraham, nor yet in Christ can ye be blessed. There is something more implied in this change often alluded to by all professing Christians than is usually considered. It is, nevertheless, scripturally and philosophically true.

http://journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_04/refJDvol4-49.html

A few thoughts:

1. This quote speaks of people "possess[ing], in their veins, any of the blood...of Christ," but it's not limited to general authorities. Rather, this statement talks about anyone possessing the blood of Christ.

2. This quote speaks of "possess[ing]...the blood...of Christ" by doing certain things (entering a covenant, doing the works of Abraham and Christ, having faith in Christ, repenting of sins, turning to and serving God." If a person does these things, then the Holy Ghost "will change thy vile body" (which, I think, the speaker means that one becomes a literal blood descendant of Christ). In other words, Orson Hyde was not speaking of having Christ in one's lineage. Rather, he was saying that a person who truly accepts Christ undergoes a physical transformation and comes to possess "in their veins" the blood of Christ.

3. I don't think this is established doctrine. It's a fascinating concept, but I don't think it's found in the scriptures.

Your second link has this to say:

Did you actually know Joseph Smith? No. Do you know brother Brigham? No. Do you know brother Heber? No, you do not. Do you know the Twelve? You do not, if you did, you would begin to know God, and learn that those men who are chosen to direct and counsel you are near kindred to God and to Jesus Christ, for the keys, power, and authority of the kingdom of God are in that lineage.

http://journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_04/refJDvol4-47.html

This is a talk by Heber C. Kimball. Is he alluding to a literal lineage or one wrought by a true conversion to Christ (as discussed by Orson Hyde in the first link)?

I started a thread on this issue about 2 months ago:

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=16428

This thread discusses arguments that Joseph Smith was a descendant of Jesus Christ. There's lots of links in it that may be useful to you.

charity

And if it doesn't shock you too much, there is a prevalent view among many that Church members in general, not just General Authorities, are literal descendants of Christ. If you believe that Mary Magdalene was Jesus' wife, and had a child with Him, and you do your genealogy, you are mostly likely descended through that line. Most people with any European ancestry are.

I respectfully disagree that this view is "prevalent." In my experience, few people have even heard about the idea of Joseph being a literal descendant of Christ. And I've never heard anyone claim for himself/herself a lineage leading to Christ.

-Smac

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smac, maybe I shouldn't have used the word "prevalent." But in the group I move in, most do.

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Charity,

But the genealogy is there. It is the basis for the ruling claims of the earliest monarchies in Europe.

I hope you are not talking about the Sangreal documents used by Brown in the Dav Code. Those documents are forgeries and were used by Hitler as propaganda.

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warship, I am not an avid fan of "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" or the DaVince code, etc. But the idea that Mary had a child with Jesus, and that she was brought to Europe to escape what would have been certain death for her and the child, is a belief of long standing in Europe.

I don't know of any specifics. I believe Jesus was married. He could not have been called "rabbi" otherwise. And I believe there was a child or children. We could all be descended from His mortal offspring, and thus literally be His descendants. This may or may not be true. It doesn't matter to my salvation, either way. But it is an interesting idea.

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Excellent replies. Good info Charity. This does make sense when you consider that those who wanted Christianity abolished would most likely try to eliminate Jesus' family as well as His followers. The first thing they probably did following the resurrection was hide his wife and children if He was married. I'd like to research this some more.

The beehive is the Masonic symbol of industry but was also used as a symbol of the lineage of Christ by the early Merovingian rulers of France, Napolean Bonaparte, and others who have claimed lineage of Christ. I found a good explanation of why the church and Utah use it on lds.org. (When I find the link I'll post it.) While it would be interesting to know if the early pioneers knew the full meaning of the symbol, I think they chose it for the reasons Charity listed.

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Well, after reading the sermon, it looks like it boils down to Orson Hydes interpretation of the scriptures. No where is there a "Thus saith the Lord" revealing first person dialog from the Lord. Thus while a potentially interesting topic, it really amounts to personal conjecture... even if it came from an apostle. And not only personal conjecture, but that on a topic that is not pertinant to us today.

The New Testament, and the Latter Day revelations are slim to none on this topic. And without revelations from Heaven to clarify the way, I don't see much use in discussing the matter further.

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Excellent replies. Good info Charity. This does make sense when you consider that those who wanted Christianity abolished would most likely try to eliminate Jesus' family as well as His followers. The first thing they probably did following the resurrection was hide his wife and children if He was married. I'd like to research this some more.

The beehive is the Masonic symbol of industry but was also used as a symbol of the lineage of Christ by the early Merovingian rulers of France, Napolean Bonaparte, and others who have claimed lineage of Christ. I found a good explanation of why the church and Utah use it on lds.org. (When I find the link I'll post it.) While it would be interesting to know if the early pioneers knew the full meaning of the symbol, I think they chose it for the reasons Charity listed.

Here we go. Sorry it took me so long. Here are some good articles on the origin of the beehive logo. Two are masonic sites and the other is from the official LDS church site. Also, did anyone see the new Nicholas Cage movie, "The Wicker Man?" The beehive is used quite extensively as a symbol of the Summerisle cult, who believed they were descended from a goddess. Though ficticious the author claims it is based on a real cult that lives on an island. Interesting.

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/symbolism/bees.html

http://www3.tky.3web.ne.jp/~jafarr/bee.html

http://www.lds.org/newsroom/showpackage/0,...4-2-550,00.html

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Does he name the island?

It seems like in the wikipedia entry for the movie it says there actually is an island named Summerisle near Scotland that is somehow rooted in paganism. However, I wouldn't read the entry if you haven't seen the movie because it contains many spoilers if you don't yet know the story. Also, some things in the new version are different from the original that starred Christopher Lee.

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The answer to the original question is: It was never doctrine.

Speculation on the part of some perhaps, but that's likely tied into the more general belief of the European kings being descended from Christ (which was the justification of the divine right of kings on the part of some).

We don't believe that people are General Authorities because they descended from Christ, and the Latter-day Saints are very aware of how speculative geneological claims are when we get into ancient lineages. The Temple won't even accept them for work unless they are cleared through the ancient records department first. Seems tying ourselves to royal lineages is a fascination with some.

While the beehive is used as a Masonic symbol it was expressly used as a sign of industry and thrift along with the original name of Utah which was Deseret (meaning honey bee).

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I read on a couple sites (not antis) that the church teaches that the general authorities are literally the direct decendants of Jesus Christ.

If Jesus had posterity we would likely all be related to him. Haven't you heard of William the Conquerer and geneaology? I thought I'd heard everything but I have to admit the church "teaching" GAs are descended from Christ is a new one. :P

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I think we'd have to establish that Jesus had children. Then show the individual pedigrees. TTBOMK these have not been done.

This is correct. However, the merovingians in the first couple centuries after Christ were convinced that they were the literal offspring of Christ. Even some royal families after that believed that their royal lineage was in the line of Christ. If some people believe this today and can trace their lineage to a royal family this may lead them to believe that they are decended from Christ. I'm wondering if many of these merovingians maybe had some type of mania or God-complex where they wanted to believe this.

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The Beehive comes from the Book of Ether in the Book of Mormon.

Ether 2: 3 And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee; and thus they did carry with them swarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, seeds of every kind.

And if it doesn't shock you too much, there is a prevalent view among many that Church members in general, not just General Authorities, are literal descendants of Christ.  If you believe that Mary Magdalene was Jesus' wife, and had a child with Him, and you do your genealogy, you are mostly likely descended through that line.  Most people with any European ancestry are.

The Beehive actually comes from Freemasonry... As well as the "All Seeing Eye" on the Salt Lake temple... and quite a few other symbols.

Sorry, didn't mean to get of subject. I just wanted to set the record straight.

EDIT: oops, I jumped to quick. I see that somebody already set it straight :P

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