Another polygamy poll

[liz3564]

My feeling on plural marriage is that it is an eternal principle which will be accepted and lived in the next life. The debate for this issue with me comes when I am told that all will be required to live in a plural marriage in order to reach the highest degree of exhaltation. I don't believe this is the case.

Based on teachings of modern prophets such as J. Reuben Clark, a monogamous marriage is a celestial marriage.

I believe that polygamy will exist, and that we will all have to be accepting of it, but not all of us will be required to live it.

I'm curious as to how others feel about this.

Please do not turn this into an anti-polygamy rant. Everyone is invited to participate in the thread, but I am particularly interested in responses from LDS who have a fundamental respect for the principle of plural marriage.

[SlackTime]

I think I have to agree with you Liz, polygamy will exist there, since God sanctioned it here. I can't see God splitting up people who love each other in polygamous marriages who were sealed together. I don't think it will be required of everybody, I don't even think it will be practiced by the majority, but it will exist there and we will accept it as an acceptable practice before God.

-SlackTime

[liz3564]

Thanks for your votes. It looks like those who have chosen to vote have similar feelings to mine. Are there any comments by those who voted?

I really am curious about how your conclusions have been drawn.

Thanks guys!

[KevinG]

I drew my conclusions when I finally got to see Brighams words in their proper context. (But you knew that about me already )

[liz3564]

Thanks, Slack Time! It looks like you were posting at the same time I was.

We both seem to be on the same wave-length with this one.

I know that I personally would have a hard time living in a polygamous relationship.

However, a good friend of mine died in a car accident, and her husband re-married. He is sealed to both of them. His new wife has basically taken care of my friend's baby as her own, and, at the same time, saved pictures, etc., and has helped this girl remember her mother. There is a tremendous amount of love which exists in this family, and I know that the three of them will work things out and be together in the eternities.

Because of this experience, I have been able to see both sides of the coin, so to speak.

What did trouble me was reading Brigham Young's account in the Journal of Discourses about all needing to live polygamy in order to achieve the highest degree of glory. My conclusion with this is that the Journal of Discourses is not canonized scripture, and that President Young was giving his opinion.

[liz3564]

I drew my conclusions when I finally got to see Brighams words in their proper context. (But you knew that about me already )

Yes, Dadof7, you and I have discussed this in the past.

It does make a difference when you read the entire address and not just snippets of quotes which are frequently presented on anti-sites.

Brigham Young was obviously addressing a certain audience with his words, and trying to lift the saint's spirits during a very trying time.

[charity]

I, too, know of cases where widowed men have been sealed to 2nd wives. I can't see how either of their marriages would be dissolved in the Celestial Kingdom. I think out understanding will be so much greater there. Those who can't see how they could possibly accept the doctrine will wonder why their understanding was so limited here.

[Mekale]

I voted no, but there wasn't an option for the different levels of the Celestial Kingdom. I do believe only those who have entered plural marriage (fulfilling the new and everlasting covenant as commanded in section 132) will be exalted/have eternal marriage and increase. I believe all who are going to live in the Celestial Kingdom will have to accept the principle as righteous and Godly, but we have our free agency and will not be required to live it there. ( but will be given a lesser glory )

There are more than a few quotes/teachings from several prophets explaining that it will be required for exaltation. The temple can give some understanding of the principle.

My personal opinion is that sealings have nothing to do with marriage in the next life but we are sealed back to God as his covenant people like one big family. We started out as brothers and sisters, and Brigham Young stated we will have that relationship again in eternity. I personally feel that marriage will be nothing like what we see here, but is more of a teaching tool to become like God and Christ.

I believe some LDS vision eternal marriage in the C.K. as a romantic, happily ever after kind of union ( I used to) but I think it will be nothing like that now.

The sacred union between one man and one woman outlined in the scriptures and ingrained within me is where I have a tough time accepting the principle. The sexual/moral aspect of it (earthly polygamy) would be impossible for myself, and I couldn't do it.

Earthly polygamy gave the Saints more than a test, but a glimpse of what it takes to become a God.

I don't understand the principle but Joseph said there is more to be revealed on it. Some of those that entered it were given more of that light and knowledge.

[Mekale]

Thanks, Slack Time! It looks like you were posting at the same time I was.

We both seem to be on the same wave-length with this one.

I know that I personally would have a hard time living in a polygamous relationship.

However, a good friend of mine died in a car accident, and her husband re-married. He is sealed to both of them. His new wife has basically taken care of my friend's baby as her own, and, at the same time, saved pictures, etc., and has helped this girl remember her mother. There is a tremendous amount of love which exists in this family, and I know that the three of them will work things out and be together in the eternities.

Because of this experience, I have been able to see both sides of the coin, so to speak.

What did trouble me was reading Brigham Young's account in the Journal of Discourses about all needing to live polygamy in order to achieve the highest degree of glory. My conclusion with this is that the Journal of Discourses is not canonized scripture, and that President Young was giving his opinion.

I know of a person who lost a spouse very early in their marriage. She was very opposed to plural marriage and after her death he sealed himself to another wife. He had a very significant experience letting him know that she was accepting of it after struggling with his decision.

On the other side of the coin though, I have a family member who lost their husband early in their marriage. They had several children together. She was re married to an LDS man and is unable to be sealed to him. They have had their own children together, but are not sealed to him. Their situation is a messy one.

I have pondered over how that can work out when men can be sealed to as many women as they are able, but her husband is not sealed to the wife he loves. She wants to be with both her husbands and loves them both. He is not sealed to anybody.

My personal opinion is that the current policy of sealing men to mutiple women is just that- *policy. Sealings are a covenant with God, not our spouse.

[Garden Girl]

As I have stated before, when we are beyond the veil, we will have a different perspective... an eternal perspective... that will enlighten our understanding... all things will be perfection and so will whatever principle governs celestial marriage... and we will have a full understanding and be able to willingly live eternal principles set forth by God, including plural marriage according to our agency... everything in God is perfection...

IMO, we will feel a depth of love we rarely gimpse here... I don't think the physical aspects of marriage will be the same as this limited earthly sphere... but that is speculation...

The Garden Girl

[liz3564]

I agree that our understanding will be greatly increased.

However, I also feel that both monogamy and polygamy will exist in the highest degree of glory.

[Moksha]

Need more choices.

[Olavarria]

The answer to this questian will be easily answered if we all get there. Until then, I don't care.

[cinepro]

Which level of the Celestial Kingdom are we talking about?

I think the applicable scripture is Doctrine and Covenants 131:

1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

  2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

  3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

  4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

I believe that until the late 1800's, the "new and everlasting covenant of marriage" = "polygamy". After the Church was forced to stop practicing polygamy, the definition of "new and everlasting covenant of marriage" was adjusted to apply to monogomous sealings.

So, as currently understood, polygamy is not "essential" to reach the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. But in the 1800's, it was.

Thank goodness for continuing revelation!

[liz3564]

Which level of the Celestial Kingdom are we talking about?

I was referring to the highest. Sorry if this is unclear.

[SlackTime]

Which level of the Celestial Kingdom are we talking about?

Even if you arrive in the Celestial Kingdom single, an angel "to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory." then you will still accept that polygamy is ordained of God, as there will be those who are accepted of God who practice and live that law.

Secondly:

 

  1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

  2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

  3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

A monogamous temple marriage meets this requirement. This has been stated by many Prophets of God. So even in the highest degree, you don't have to be in a polygamous marriage.

-SlackTime

[Mekale]

Which level of the Celestial Kingdom are we talking about?

I was referring to the highest. Sorry if this is unclear.

oops, my vote would have been yes then. I already voted so I can't change it.

[Mekale]

A monogamous temple marriage meets this requirement.  This has been stated by many Prophets of God.  So even in the highest degree, you don't have to be in a polygamous marriage.

-SlackTime

Hi Slacktime,

I have been trying to find these quotes on monogamy fulfilling the new and everlasting covenant from the Prophets on this topic. I have many that contradict this but only one supporting this idea.(the one Liz mentioned by Clark) Do you have any others and are they canon? Also, is the quote from Clark canon? I had asked my church leader to find these for me and he hasn't responsded with any.

From the reading I have done, it seems clear that plural marriage is required for exaltation but that we will not be commanded to do it until the Savior comes again or when we are in the Celestial Kingdom. Our Modern day Prophets have been quiet on the topic but they haven't spoken against the words of our former Prophets as I understand it. I am hoping to find some clear teachings/canon. revelation on this topic because it's confusing. Thanks

[SlackTime]

Hi Slacktime,

I have been trying to find these quotes on monogamy fulfilling the new and everlasting covenant from the Prophets on this topic. I have many that contradict this but only one supporting this idea.(the one Liz mentioned by Clark) Do you have any others and are they canon? Also, is the quote from Clark canon? I had asked my church leader to find these for me and he hasn't responsded with any.

From the reading I have done, it seems clear that plural marriage is required for exaltation but that we will not be commanded to do it until the Savior comes again or when we are in the Celestial Kingdom. Our Modern day Prophets have been quiet on the topic but they haven't spoken against the words of our former Prophets as I understand it. I am hoping to find some clear teachings/canon. revelation on this topic because it's confusing. Thanks

First of all I think you are looking for a repudiation of something that was not doctrine. Even during Brigham Young's life the greater portion of the Church did not live in polygamous marriages. They accepted the principle, but they were not called upon to live it. Those members who did not live in polygamous marriages believed that they would be heirs to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. Anti's conflate the teachings regarding the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage and polygamy when two principles are related but not equivalent. The principle of polygamy being practiced in this life was withdrawn, the principle of Eternal marriage never was.

Secondly you asked for canon. Canon consists only of the standard works. But doctrine includes the teachings of the Church given under the direction of the President of the Church. We are instructed to use the conference issues of the Ensign for lessons in priesthood and relief society. We are also instructed to take the First Presidency message of the month to our home teaching families.

In canonized scripture we have section 131 which I quoted. Note that it says marriage, not how many marriages a man must have. I can enter into the New and Everlasting covenant of marriage once and have fulfilled the requirement. Unless of course God adds additional requirements that are specific to me. Why do I say that? Because some men were called in by their Bishops and called to take a second wife. In those situations it is a specific calling and not a Church-wide calling.

A very good discourse on the subject is found HERE

This is President Kimball, and I don't think you can claim he is discussing polygamy. But he is promising us all the blessings of the New and Everlasting covenant.

Other such talks are available by searching for "New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage" in the library.

[juliann]

What did trouble me was reading Brigham Young's account in the Journal of Discourses about all needing to live polygamy in order to achieve the highest degree of glory. My conclusion with this is that the Journal of Discourses is not canonized scripture, and that President Young was giving his opinion.

That shouldn't be troubling...they were under commandment to live polygamy. We are not and there is not a smidgen of evidence from any modern prophet even hinting that it will ever be a commandment again.

[Number 9]

I can't answer. There isn't a "don't know, not worried about it" option.

BTW, I've mentioned this before, but my husband is still sealed to his ex-wife.

[Moksha]

How did the idea of Polygamy get associated with the Celestial Kingdom anyway?

[liz3564]

How did the idea of Polygamy get associated with the Celestial Kingdom anyway?

In reading section 132 of the D&C, the definition of the "new and everlasting covenant of marriage" leading to exhaltation was linked to meaning plural marriage. The connection in the scriptures between plural marriage and exhaltation is how plural marriage became associated with the Celestial Kingdom.

My stance is the same as Slack Time's. The new and everlasting covenant is defined as plural marriage, but it is also defined as monogamous marriage.

This stance has been supported by modern prophet's teachings.

As far as future references go, I think we can also add the Proclamation of the Family to our list, Slack Time.

[simply_disappear]

hang on here. i don't think those should be the only two options. we won't all be made to accept anything. that is satan's plan. nor will we all be made to live it. that is satan's plan as well.

[Connolly]

However, I also feel that both monogamy and polygamy will exist in the highest degree of glory.

Do you think that?

Or do you hope that?

Would it matter to someone who fully, completely, and wholly accepts the restored gospel?