Finding Zarahemla?

[Uncle Dale]

Does this help any?  Look on the map to find Zarahemla.

Well, if you really must dig out my old maps, at least put up the pretty ones.

http://sidneyrigdon.com/vern/Holley1.JPG

I was a boarder in the Holley residence, near Roy, Utah, at the time Vern wanted

his maps drawn. I provided several different renditions for his various writings (not

all of which he ever published -- I still have Vern's unpublished essays, etc.)

Prior to his passing away, I believe that I had convinced Vern that the River Sidon

was not the Genesee (as he has it), but needed to be moved "one river to the west,"

and be identified with the Niagara River (connecting the lakes on the narrow neck of land).

Such a move of the River Sidon westward on Vern's map, would bring the location

of Zarahemla roughly atop Ontario Canada's "Niagara-on-the-Lake. For alternative

locations in the same general area, see the writings of Elder Delbert W. Curtis, as

well as the more recent contributions of Sister Phyllis Carol Olive.

I do not imagine Book of Mormon to be perfectly consistent, as I believe that the

narrative text for the book passed through the hands of more than one writer, and

that the final editor did not fully comprehend the geography as laid out by the initial

author of the story. Thus, I believe that inconsistencies were introduced into the text

prior to 1827, and perhaps during the 1827-29 period as well.

Uncle Dale

[Guest KW Graham]

Well the first problem I see with that map proposal is this...

What are the chances of anyone setting sail from the Arabian pennisula and landing on the eastern coast of the North or South American continent? Doesn't the weather typically travel from west to east?

They'd have to head due south for a few thousand miles and then, after clearing the African continent, suddenly jet N/NW until they landed in what would be the future New England area.

[thesometimesaint]

Uncle Dale:

"I am also totally convinced that neither the city, nor the name, nor any evidence of ancient Zarahemlaites whatsoever will EVER be discovered."

"EVER" is a LOOOOONG time even to me.

[Uncle Dale]

Uncle Dale:

"I am also totally convinced that neither the city, nor the name, nor any evidence of ancient Zarahemlaites whatsoever will EVER be discovered."

"EVER" is a LOOOOONG time even to me.

Child, when you get to be my age, even "ever" seems to go by in flash. Seems like

I just opened my hanukkah presents a day or two ago -- and now it's time to start

all over again <sigh!>

-------

What are the chances of anyone setting sail from the Arabian pennisula and landing on the eastern coast of the North or South American continent? Doesn't the weather typically travel from west to east?

Depends on the latitude and how much sail tacking a captain is prepared to endure.

Of course great and furious sea storms, lasting many a day, brought on by divine

intervention, might have landed Crist

[thesometimesaint]

Uncle Dale:

A man is young as he feels. Oops.

[Kevin Graham]

Well in 1492 Columbus was actually trying to sail due west, right? Sextants or something akin to a mariner's quadrant is probably what he used. We know it is possible to sail in any direction no matter what direction the wind is blowing, so long as you're determined and know what you're doing.

I'm assuming that in 600 BCE, Lehi was not in a typical boat (it is said a couple of times that it was made differently from the manner of men) and his methods for changing direction were extremely limited. I just question the plausibility for such drastic zig-zagging across the globe; assuming he landed somewhere on the eastern coast.

[Moksha]

Navigating from a boat of unusual constuction may not have been difficult.

[Huge pictures removed by moderator]

"Full speed to Zarahemla"

[USU78]

I tend to agree with Unka Dale that it is unlikely any of us will ever live to see a "proven" BoM site identified.

The fluidity of occupancy of any particular site is one reason.

The vaguaries of shifting political (and thus linguistic) hegemonies is another.

The fundamentaly migratory nature of the core beliefs of the Uto-Aztecans (if we believe Hopi traditions) is yet another.

Then there's the question of taboos. Rome, for example, had a secret name during the republic and thereafter, which it was considered sacrelige to mention outside the precincts of the Temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus.

Zarahemla, reported only in a religious text, may never have been called that outside ritually permissible confines.

So . . . nope. No "proven" sites.

USU "Amor" 78

[juliann]

It appears that Dan Vogel has followed the example of Brent Metcalfe in deciding that discretion is the better part of valor, and is refusing to answer my questions concerning the issue he raised.

Brent usually gives us his busy schedule before running for cover.

Vogel declaimed:

[Dale]

With the Book of Mormon persons do not want it falsely claimed that God had something to do with it.

So a place like Zarahemla if it's mythical then it's possible to blame the book solely on Joseph Smith. But the issue of Zarahemllas existence is a legitimate issue. But it's not not an issue you can satisfy believers, or non-believers on based on intellectual evidence alone. At this point searching for Zarahemla is a futile hunt without a big discovery settling the dispute.

A big discovery to me would be a history containing place names, maps, place names, or anything that contradicts the Book of Mormon place names.

[Dan Vogel]

Bill,

Name similarities by themselves can be explained as coincidence.

Perhaps. But so can any nineteenth century parallel that you claim to find. Anything can be explained as a coincidence. Parallels in and of themselves are not significant, as I

[Bill Hamblin]

Hi Dan,

Vogel

[Dan Vogel]

Bill,

A plausible case cannot be made for anything. That

[Mighty Curelom]

I heard an interview on the radio of the guy who analyzed Hofman's documents for the trial. He said something that is very pertinant to this discussion. He called it "the cow in the tree." This is that one deal breaker that proves a document to be fraudulent. All the other details are superfluous after you've found the "cow in the tree." The cow in the tree for the Salamander letter was a certain pattern of ink crackling that all Hofman frauds shared. Once that pattern was recognized, any other analysis would have been useless. You could look at the word usage patterns of the purported authors, or analyze the handwriting, or test the age of the paper, or a hundred other things, but none of those things would make a bit of difference. Once the cow is found, that's it. It's over.

The Book of Mormon has so many cows in the tree that the tree is bending from the weight. I won't list them all here--we're all well aquainted with them.

The question has been asked "Doesn't Nahom count as plausible evidence to support the BoM?" The answer is, Not any more than handwriting similarities provide plausible evidence that the Salamander letter is genuine. You could find 100 experts who all agree that the Salamander letter is a PERFECT match for the person that was supposed to have written it. But it doesn't matter. It's a non-issue. Nahom is a non-issue. No name-matching game can provide "plausible" evidence until the cows are dealt with.

[thesometimesaint]

MC:

Pure assertion.

[livy111us]

So you will ignore any evidence for it until you get a satisfactory answer for other questions. Hmmm...........

[Dale]

Which one of these cws in the tree have not been answered? Are they really cows in the tree, or imagined to be in the tree?

[The Dude]

I heard an interview on the radio of the guy who analyzed Hofman's documents for the trial.  He said something that is very pertinant to this discussion.  He called it "the cow in the tree."  This is that one deal breaker that proves a document to be fraudulent.  All the other details are superfluous after you've found the "cow in the tree."  The cow in the tree for the Salamander letter was a certain pattern of ink crackling that all Hofman frauds shared.  Once that pattern was recognized, any other analysis would have been useless.  You could look at the word usage patterns of the purported authors, or analyze the handwriting, or test the age of the paper, or a hundred other things, but none of those things would make a bit of difference.  Once the cow is found, that's it.  It's over.

The Book of Mormon has so many cows in the tree that the tree is bending from the weight.  I won't list them all here--we're all well aquainted with them. 

Was it Thockmorton who said that? I know he was one of the two guys who figure out the unique cracked ink pattern in all the Hofmann forgeries. No authentic document had that feature but all the fake Hofmann's did--he could go through a pile of documents and be 100% correct about which were Hofmann's and which were not, just based on the cracked ink.

IMO the Book of Abraham is more of a "cow in the tree" situation than the Book of Mormon. If the golden plates were in a museum somewhere, and proved to be an ancient record completely unrelated to the BoM--or if the plates proved to be a hoax on Joseph Smith (think Kinderhook)--then there might be a similar case against the BoM. But to date there is no hard evidence except the book itself. There's a lot of funny stuff in the book and a mysterious absence of external evidence.... That's not quite a "cow in the tree."

[Mighty Curelom]

Everyone here is familiar with the usual cows (some are actual cows, in fact): cattle, cows and calves, bulls, asses, horses, oxen, domestic sheep, pigs and elephants, barley, wheat, grapes, olives, swords, chariots, etc.. But here are a couple more cows that you might now know about. The first quote is from the bible; the second from the book of Mormon.

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace (Romans 8:6)

Remember, to be carnally minded is death, and to be spiritually minded is life eternal. (2 Nephi 9:39)

* * * * * * *

And now the axe is laid to the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (Matthew 3:10)

And again I say unto you, the Spirit saith: Behold, the ax is laid at the root of the tree; therefore every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit shall be hewn down and cast into the fire (Alma 5:52)

* * * * * * * *

These are anachronistic quotes. The Book of Mormon verses here predate the same phrases found in the KJV by hundreds of years. This is a cow if ever there was a cow.

So you will ignore any evidence for it until you get a satisfactory answer for other questions. Hmmm...........

What, are you going to ignore ALL the evidence proving the Salamander letter authentic, just because there's one tell-tale sign of fraud? Hmmmm.....

[Mighty Curelom]

IMO the Book of Abraham is more of a "cow in the tree" situation than the Book of Mormon.

They're part of the same equation. When Hofman got caught making ONE forged document, ALL his works became suspect. The BoA is a "cow in the tree" of Mormonism itself, including the Book of Mormon.

[juliann]

The Book of Mormon has so many cows in the tree that the tree is bending from the weight.

Sing on, MC.

http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/~pcxee/cow_flash.htm

[The Dude]

IMO the Book of Abraham is more of a "cow in the tree" situation than the Book of Mormon.

They're part of the same equation. When Hofman got caught making ONE forged document, ALL his works became suspect. The BoA is a "cow in the tree" of Mormonism itself, including the Book of Mormon.

Well, the comparison gets a little confounded because ALL of Hofmann's documents had the same "cow in the tree." The cracked ink. I presume if they didn't have that feature, and if there was no other challenge, then they were judged authentic.

This term "cow in the tree" makes me think of something so damning that it requires a leap of faith to overcome it. Mark Hofmann's father made that leap of faith, and claimed personal revelation that his son was innocent despite the evidence of cracked ink. I think that's what people have to do with the Book of Abraham.

[juliann]

Come on...we just need a few more of you deep thinkers for the complete cast of characters...

Sing it with feeling!

:::::::I've known since time immemorial, Cows were not meant to be arboreal::::::

[Calm]

I prefer the below if we're going into cow songs, but I must confess mine, unlike Juliann's, is probably offtopic.

I am Cow, hear me moo

I weigh twice as much as you

And I look good on the barbecue

Yogurt, curd, cream cheese and butter's

Made from liquid from my udders

I am Cow, I am Cow, Hear me moo (moo)

I am Cow, eating grass

Methane gas comes out my ***

And out my muzzle when I belch

Oh, the ozone layer is thinner

From the outcome of my dinner

I am Cow, I am Cow, I've got gas

I am Cow, here I stand

Far and wide upon this land

And I am living everywhere

From B.C. to Newfoundland

You can squeeze my teats by hand

I am Cow, I am Cow, I am Cow

I am Cow, I am Cow, I am Cow!

Sorry, don't know where to find the melody as well though they did have a few animated songs.Official Arrogant Worms Website

PS to urroner: This one's just for you

Rippy the Gator

[Moksha]

You will want to check this out for further religious inspiration. Turn your speakers on.

Cows of the Righteousness