A Recommendation for an Academic Source on God, the Father as Exalted Man?

[Navidad]

I would very much appreciate some recommendations for sources that explain in some detail the LDS concept of God the Father as an exalted man. My guess is that it would be inclusive of describing His spirit nature and perhaps soul. If that is a distinction that is made. It would be helpful if it also includes the Father's literal relationship (physical and spiritual) with Christ. I have several books on the "Mormon" Jesus, but I don't believe I have any specifically about the Father from a modern LDS scholar. Thanks. 

Edited August 27 by Navidad

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

I would very much appreciate some recommendations for sources that explain in some detail the LDS concept of God the Father as an exalted man. My guess is that it would be inclusive of describing His spirit nature and perhaps soul. If that is a distinction that is made. It would be helpful if it also includes the Father's literal relationship (physical and spiritual) with Christ. I have several books on the "Mormon" Jesus, but I don't believe I have any specifically about the Father from a modern LDS scholar. Thanks. 

Not sure this is what you are looking for:

https://gregkofford.com/products/exploring-mormon-thought-1?

[Navidad]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Not sure this is what you are looking for:

https://gregkofford.com/products/exploring-mormon-thought-1?

I'm not sure. Is Ostler a member in good standing? He is a bit of an independent guy with independent views. Of course, I like that, but I am not sure his writings can be used as harmonizing with the church's perspective on this or that issue. 

[Calm]

Last I heard he was an active and devout member.  But he is a philosopher (by inclination, professionally think he is a lawyer) and his arguments are not always mainstream thought as far as I remember (been over 20 years since I read the book).  I am reserved about it for that reason, but my memory says he is thorough in his treatment so while his own conclusions may be not traditional, he includes those in his discussion.  I would definitely look for reviews to be sure.  

Edited August 27 by Calm

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

I'm not sure. Is Ostler a member in good standing? He is a bit of an independent guy with independent views. Of course, I like that, but I am not sure his writings can be used as harmonizing with the church's perspective on this or that issue. 

I have his volume 3 of that series, but not volume 1, but based on what I know about his other book I would definitely recommend it.

[3DOP]

Navidad,

For what it is worth, LDS who are familiar with Ostler have seemed to me, in my limited experience, to be much more understanding and less dismissive about my belief in an unchanging God. 

Edited August 28 by 3DOP

[3DOP]

So I have been waiting for more LDS input. I thought Ostler was too "classical" for most LDS. Calm, you will remember our friend David Waltz. I just now left a message on his phone. He has a library of LDS books like probably few LDS and no other non-LDS in the world. 

Ostler is the only recommendation? He is the last word? Surely he is not the only word? Anyway, I will report back if I find out there is any other LDS book that talks about God as an exalted man.

 

Edited 3 hours ago by 3DOP

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

So I have been waiting for more LDS input. I thought Ostler was too "classical" for most LDS. Calm, you will remember our friend David Waltz. I just now left a message on his phone. He has a library of LDS books like probably few LDS and no other non-LDS in the world. 

Ostler is the only recommendation? He is the last word? Surely he is not the only word? Anyway, I will report back if I find out there is any other LDS book that talks about God as an exalted man.

 

David would be the best source for such that I know.    

We just don’t do theology that much.  Also I have been out of tracking the new stuff for a while due to health.  I always bought my books at the yearly FAIR conference.  It’s much easier to avoid getting seduced when I can’t see or touch them.

My ability to concentrate and remember is just very low right now, so not reading much of the few books I have bought.  Being reminded my brain is mostly offline these days is depressing, so I don’t even window shop books like I used to.

(Got a new GP who is trying to figure out why I get some weird test results, so who knows, maybe that will change a little and my books shelves will start expanding again.)
 

So I am not even aware if there is stuff since 5, 7 years ago unless someone brings it up here or on the FAIR list where we answer questions.

Talking about FAIR reminds me I forgot to ask there for suggestions (anyone else ‘remember’ their thoughts on what they are going to do as actually doing it?, I think I visual too well and it ends up looking like a memory rather than anticipation).

[3DOP]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

David would be the best source for such that I know.    

We just don’t do theology that much.  Also I have been out of tracking the new stuff for a while due to health.  I always bought my books at the yearly FAIR conference.  It’s much easier to avoid getting seduced when I can’t see or touch them.

My ability to concentrate and remember is just very low right now, so not reading much of the few books I have bought.  Being reminded my brain is mostly offline these days is depressing, so I don’t even window shop books like I used to.

(Got a new GP who is trying to figure out why I get some weird test results, so who knows, maybe that will change a little and my books shelves will start expanding again.)
 

So I am not even aware if there is stuff since 5, 7 years ago unless someone brings it up here or on the FAIR list where we answer questions.

Talking about FAIR reminds me I forgot to ask there for suggestions (anyone else ‘remember’ their thoughts on what they are going to do as actually doing it?, I think I visual too well and it ends up looking like a memory rather than anticipation).

Calm, hi. 

Don't feel bad about your brain drain. I can't remember things from recent days. But I can't forget my old baseball cards from the 60's! My son must know I like to show off my unforgetfulness of the past. He asked me about Leon Wagner the other day. I gave him the history of how the Giants needed to clear out a young outfield full of phenoms, including Wagner, and two Alou brothers, to make space for Willie Mays, Orlanda Cepeda and Willie McCovey to play every day.

My GP, who also can talk old baseball, (which means he must be a good doctor), has a word for our phenomenon, but I have forgotten the word! But anyway, it isn't dementia, (if I remember correctly).

Take care calm,

3DOP 

[Calm]

I wrote to FAIR, so hopefully something else will pop up.  I also appealed to Chat as much as I hate to ask it about books, seems a betrayal of humanity to do so, lol, and as expected it pulled up Ostler’s book, specifically Vol 2, Chapter 12.

Quote

Most importantly for the request, chapter 12 is specifically titled “God the Eternal Father.” The volume also deals extensively with the LDS understanding of divine embodiment, God’s relationship to humanity, Christology, the nature of divine perfection, and the relationship between the Father and the Son. A BYU Studies review specifically identifies “God the Eternal Father” as one of the important chapters of the volume.

It also suggested Andrew Skinner.  
 

Quote

I’d pair Ostler with Andrew C. Skinner’s “The Doctrine of God the Father in the Book of Mormon.” Skinner was dean of Religious Education at BYU, and this is a much more accessible treatment. It directly discusses the Father, the Son, Jehovah, and the relationship between them.

 

Skinner makes an especially useful distinction for your friend’s question: the Father and Son are separate personages, while Christ/Jehovah acts under the Father’s authority and is completely one with Him in purpose. He also discusses the Father’s role in the plan of salvation and Christ’s role as its executor.

Then it mentions the 1916 First Presidency’s “The Father and the Son”.  I expect you are aware of that already, but if not…

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2002/04/the-father-and-the-son?

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

But anyway, it isn't dementia, (if I remember correctly).

Nah, it’s too crowded brains. No room for the new stuff.  😛 

Maybe “reminiscence bump”?  I never heard of that before, but that came up in a search for ‘remember events from youth vividly, forget what I ate or wore or read recently’

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Calm

[3DOP]

26 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

Calm, hi. 

Don't feel bad about your brain drain. I can't remember things from recent days. But I can't forget my old baseball cards from the 60's! My son must know I like to show off my unforgetfulness of the past. He asked me about Leon Wagner the other day. I gave him the history of how the Giants needed to clear out a young outfield full of phenoms, including Wagner, and two Alou brothers, to make space for Willie Mays, Orlanda Cepeda and Willie McCovey to play every day.

My GP, who also can talk old baseball, (which means he must be a good doctor), has a word for our phenomenon, but I have forgotten the word! But anyway, it isn't dementia, (if I remember correctly).

Take care calm,

3DOP 

So Wagner ended up having around ten good years with the Cleveland Indians. 25 homers a year. Maybe a little less. But certainly more than 200 home runs. A nice career.

I bring that up to scrape the scab that was bleeding somewhere else about name changing. We talked about this Bombay change. So...let's talk about the blankety Guardians who were once supposedly so offensive to Native Americans.

Why were American Indians so upset about a baseball team, but everybody is okay with the state of Indiana and its capital, Indianapolis? I propose that we exclude this state from the Union until they drop their racism. Guardianapolis, Guardiana should be acceptable to all sensitivities.

I am an old man who remembers Sammy Davis Jr. making jokes about his race with good nature in an era when there was certainly more anti black racism. Now the racism, ageism, and sexism is turned on me. White Boy Boomers are the worst. I sat with the only black kid in our high school at basketball games. But I am a bigot and object of hate because of my age, sex, and race? So just kill me you young people of righteous virtue. Good bye.

Sorry for the ranting stream of consciousness...kind of...this is how it feels to be hated...online. 

Edited 2 hours ago by 3DOP

[Calm]

38 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

Why were American Indians so upset about a baseball team, but everybody is okay with the state of Indiana and its capital, Indianapolis? I propose that we exclude this state from the Union until they drop their racism. Guardianapolis, Guardiana should be acceptable to all sensitivities.

Indiana is a place name meaning Land of the Indians according to google.  Recognizing that Native Americans originally lived there is different imo than calling people Indians who are not.  One is recognition of a past, the other appropriation of identity.  Add to that the racist caricature that got paired with the baseball name, historically it was insulting.  “Indiana” as far as I know never got couple with racist imagery, etc.  

It would be odd for a baseball team that had no association with the RCC to call themselves the Popes just because they were centered in Rome, Georgia.  If the mascot was also something one might find in an anticatholic screed and this gets put on all sorts of merchandise as well as team uniforms, advertising, etc, wouldn’t many actual Catholics get offended by that?

I know I would be annoyed if Utah or someplace else had a team called “the Mormons” and used a ridiculous looking missionary as its mascot.

Edited 1 hour ago by Calm

[3DOP]

57 minutes ago, Calm said:

Indiana is a place name meaning Land of the Indians according to google.  Recognizing that Native Americans originally lived there is different imo than calling people Indians who are not.  One is recognition of a past, the other appropriation of identity.  Add to that the racist caricature that got paired with the baseball name, historically it was insulting.  “Indiana” as far as I know never got couple with racist imagery, etc.  

It would be odd for a baseball team that had no association with the RCC to call themselves the Popes just because they were centered in Rome, Georgia.  If the mascot was also something one might find in an anticatholic screed and this gets put on all sorts of merchandise as well as team uniforms, advertising, etc, wouldn’t many actual Catholics get offended by that?

I know I would be annoyed if Utah or someplace else had a team called “the Mormons” and used a ridiculous looking missionary as its mascot.

Okay. Well said. You are right. I have been wrong. My mind is changed. It was a ridiculous looking mascot.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, 3DOP said:

Okay. Well said. You are right. I have been wrong. My mind is changed. It was a ridiculous looking mascot.

I love you I hope you know.  

(For those who think this is weird, we have known each other a long time and every now and then he says something that reminds me how great it’s been.  And I need to let him know that.)

Edited 3 minutes ago by Calm