The Oddity of Protestant Apologetics

[marineland]

On 12/10/2025 at 1:42 PM, InCognitus said:

The kingdoms in Daniel's dream interpretation were successive.  So you need to look at the kingdoms that succeeded the Roman Empire if you want to identify the feet and toes of clay and iron.  What you are proposing creates a gap in the "image" that Daniel saw.

You have a point.

On 12/10/2025 at 1:42 PM, InCognitus said:

On 12/10/2025 at 1:03 PM, marineland said:

Daniel 2:34 says, "As you looked, [A] a stone was cut out by no human hand, and [B] it struck
the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces".

When did that happen?

Point A (in red above) happened in 1830.  Point B is soon to come.

What is the last kingdom of iron and clay that exists in 1830?

[InCognitus]

4 minutes ago, marineland said:

What is the last kingdom of iron and clay that exists in 1830?

I already answered that.  That would likely refer to the European nations and modern states of the world.

[Pyreaux]

23 hours ago, marineland said:

What is the last kingdom of iron and clay that exists in 1830?

It includes even the Republic of the United States. It represents the many separate nations that arose long after Jesus, long after the fall of Rome, from which the iron remnants of the Roman Empire still existed in the time leading up to and during the establishment of the Church in 1830. Elements of Rome, nations of a non-mixing diverse nature, and an inability to firmly unite, as the scripture says they "shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay" (Daniel 2:43).

Only "in the days of these kings" (the kingdoms of iron and clay) that "shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed" (Daniel 2:44). The stone "cut out without hands" that strikes the image on its feet and eventually "becomes a great mountain, and fills the whole earth." In LDS interpretation, this stone represents the restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which was established by God, not men, in 1830 while the world was still divided as the "iron and clay" kingdoms, still iron oppressive but too clay weak to ultimately stop us.

While official LDS commentary on the "iron and clay" feet of Daniel 2 generally focuses on the political division and lack of unity among the nations that grew out of the Roman Empire, as there were many constitutional monarchies and republics that existed by 1830. However, I and maybe you may agree there was weakness, corruption, and inability to stand firmly on the truth.

The history of Europe and even the US was dominated by established state religions (Anglican, Catholic, Lutheran, etc.) that used government power to enforce conformity and suppress dissent. This a system inherited from the Roman Empire's eventual adoption and enforcement of a Roman infused Christianity (the "iron" structure enforcing a mixed but non-mixing and corrupted "clay" religion).

The environment in the early 19th-century United States which inherited its structure from Europe/Roman traditions was characterized by fragmentation. Fragmented churches all claiming to have truth but divided by impure ad conflicting doctrines inherited from Rome (like the Trinity). This US spiritual division is a perfect example of the "clay" that introduces weakness and prevents unity even today.

These impurities caused all the competing claims of the various sects is what led the young Joseph Smith to seek divine guidance. The very moment the LDS Church was organized in 1830, it immediately faced persecution from the established yet fragmented religious groups and their oppressive but fragmented governments. The established churches and legal systems did not want to yield to a new religious authority or doctrine growing in their midst.

The foundation of the LDS Church in 1830 is viewed as a divine break from this oppressive and fragmented system. Unlike these other churches, it does not claim to originate from the existing political or religious systems of the world; it is established by God and is destined to snowball and eventually displace all the corrupted elements represented by the statue. Eventually, maybe in a Millennial day.

Essentially, the kingdoms of the earth of early 19th century contains all the defining characteristics of the statue of the oppressors of the Kingdom of God, Roman iron fragmented into clay trying to oppress the kingdom of God, from which the LDS Church claims to have been divinely delivered and against which it was established.

[The Nehor]

On 12/9/2025 at 2:31 PM, marineland said:

Can you identify the kingdom of the feet; iron mixed with clay?

The various successor states formed during the wars of the Diadochi.

The four other sections are, in order, Babylon, the Medes, the Persians, and the Greeks/Macedonians.

Edited December 28, 2025 by The Nehor