The Church of England has Just Fallen Into Apostasy!

[ZealouslyStriving]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

Perhaps the narrator was referring to William Marks, who Emma supported as successor.

Could be

[Calm]

8 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Ugh I meant to edit 😕 

If you want to edit, I can try and remember to replace your old quote with the new version. 

[the narrator]

On 10/25/2025 at 9:34 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Can we please, for the love of all that is holy, lay to rest idea that Emma Smith started the RLDS Movement?

Can we please, for the love of all that is holy, put your strawmen down?

I did not say a single thing about the "RLDS movement."

In Joseph's often-secretive Nauvoo updates to the priesthood, primarily through the new temple rites, Emma was given far more authority and power than people tend to recognize. Brigham Young, who hated and despised Emma even more than she did him, was aware of this. While the succession crisis tends to focus on Young, Rigdon, Strang, and eventually the RLDS movement, there was much more going on behind the scenes between Young and Emma. The latter staked her voice on her priestly role in the so-called "anointed quorum," and the former based his claim on a likely fabricated--yes, fabricated--so-called "last charge" where Joseph reportedly secretively and completely changed the authority of the 12 from being over the missions outside of the stakes of the church to being over the entire church itself. That event was supposed to have occurred during a meeting of the council of fifty on March 26, 1844--and yet, something so important was not recorded in the Cof50 minutes. (As multiple JSPP historians have told me, the absence of this in the minutes was the biggest revelation of the published minutes--though for obvious reasons a great deal has not been publicly made of this by those in the CHD.

Likewise, 50 years later, Wilford Woodruff would say of this day:

Quote

The room was filled as if with consuming fire; the Prophet was clothed upon with much of the power of God, and his face shone and was transparently clear, and he closed that speech, never-to-be-forgotten in time or in eternity

Seems like a pretty remarkable event that the consummate diarist would have made a note of that day, but instead Woodruff had this to report of the day:

Quote

A rainy day. I met in council with the brethren.

 

[the narrator]

On 10/25/2025 at 10:15 PM, Calm said:

Perhaps the narrator was referring to William Marks, who Emma supported as successor.

Emma didn't want Marks as a successor. Rather, under Emma's advice, Joseph Smith III sought out Marks's support to reorganize the church because she trusted him, he rejected polygamy, and he had been the stake president of Nauvoo--making him the leading ecclesiastical authority following Joseph and Hyrum's death. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

39 minutes ago, the narrator said:

Can we please, for the love of all that is holy, put your strawmen down?

I did not say a single thing about the "RLDS movement."

In Joseph's often-secretive Nauvoo updates to the priesthood, primarily through the new temple rites, Emma was given far more authority and power than people tend to recognize. Brigham Young, who hated and despised Emma even more than she did him, was aware of this. While the succession crisis tends to focus on Young, Rigdon, Strang, and eventually the RLDS movement, there was much more going on behind the scenes between Young and Emma. The latter staked her voice on her priestly role in the so-called "anointed quorum," and the former based his claim on a likely fabricated--yes, fabricated--so-called "last charge" where Joseph reportedly secretively and completely changed the authority of the 12 from being over the missions outside of the stakes of the church to being over the entire church itself. That event was supposed to have occurred during a meeting of the council of fifty on March 26, 1844--and yet, something so important was not recorded in the Cof50 minutes. (As multiple JSPP historians have told me, the absence of this in the minutes was the biggest revelation of the published minutes--though for obvious reasons a great deal has not been publicly made of this by those in the CHD.

Likewise, 50 years later, Wilford Woodruff would say of this day:

Seems like a pretty remarkable event that the consummate diarist would have made a note of that day, but instead Woodruff had this to report of the day:

 

I may have jumped the gun on your meaning- but are you going to deny that average members believe Emma Smith started the Reorganized Church?

[the narrator]

48 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I may have jumped the gun on your meaning- but are you going to deny that average members believe Emma Smith started the Reorganized Church?

Emma played a strong role in the reorganization. It would not have happened without her.

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 minutes ago, the narrator said:

Emma played a strong role in the reorganization. It would not have happened without her.

No, she really didn't. She went along with Joseph III when he finally accepted the leadership position offered to him several times. She supported her sons, but really had no role in starting the Reorganization.

(I spent over a decade in the Restoration Branches)

[the narrator]

30 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

No, she really didn't. She went along with Joseph III when he finally accepted the leadership position offered to him several times. She supported her sons, but really had no role in starting the Reorganization.

(I spent over a decade in the Restoration Branches)

Yes, she did. She wasn't just a passive observer along for a ride. She advised her son and was key in getting Marks's support. Emma was also the literary agent of some of Joseph's writings, including the  New Translation of the Bible, which she provided to the Reorganization.

(I have spent over two decades in Mormon Studies and have overseen the publication of top biographies and histories of this period, including biographies of William Smith and William Marks.)

[ZealouslyStriving]

4 hours ago, the narrator said:

Yes, she did. She wasn't just a passive observer along for a ride. She advised her son and was key in getting Marks's support. Emma was also the literary agent of some of Joseph's writings, including the  New Translation of the Bible, which she provided to the Reorganization.

(I have spent over two decades in Mormon Studies and have overseen the publication of top biographies and histories of this period, including biographies of William Smith and William Marks.)

Again, as I said, she supported Joseph III when he accepted the position being offered to him by Briggs and Gurley- but to say she was instrumental in starting in Reorganization is simply not factual. She didn't encourage JSIII to accept the position being offered him, she went along with him when he did. Even RLDS literature talks about her reluctance in having her sons involved in church affairs- yet we have this perception in the Church that she almost singlehandedly started the Reorganization and installed her boy as the new prophet. If JSIII hadn't have accepted leadership in the New Organization, as it was called, she would've been perfectly content letting her boys pursue secular careers. 

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

this perception in the Church that she almost singlehandedly started the Reorganization and installed her boy as the new prophet.

I never had such a perception and it didn’t occur to me that others might as what seemed conveyed to me was that she withdrew from public life as much as possible and didn’t want to get involved in religious leadership having seen the high cost to her family.

I am wondering about others who grew up in the Church as well as those who converted.

I expect my upbringing was somewhat different than the typical Saint, though I don’t think I was that familiar with events that occurred and others besides Joseph’s beliefs (my mother deep dove into tue JoD and Joseph’s teachings and studied Swedenborg and others…and then she talked to me and my siblings about the teachings and her own ideas because there wasn’t any adults interested around her).  Would like to compare perceptions about Emma in this case.

I am already familiar with how she was seen as not enduring to the end and practically an enemy to the Church in my Primary days, but got ‘rehabilitated’ starting sometime in my MIA (YW) days iirc when Joseph and Emma’s love story started to get emphasized, in part because one of their descendants converted and was published in the Ensign, iirc.  Have heard quite a bit of discussion about that aspect before, but not that much about the succession and Emma’s role in the RLDS beyond supporting her son.

Edited October 27, 2025 by Calm

[the narrator]

 

16 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Again, as I said, she supported Joseph III when he accepted the position being offered to him by Briggs and Gurley- but to say she was instrumental in starting in Reorganization is simply not factual. She didn't encourage JSIII to accept the position being offered him, she went along with him when he did. Even RLDS literature talks about her reluctance in having her sons involved in church affairs- yet we have this perception in the Church that she almost singlehandedly started the Reorganization and installed her boy as the new prophet. If JSIII hadn't have accepted leadership in the New Organization, as it was called, she would've been perfectly content letting her boys pursue secular careers. 

Keep fighting those strawmen, I guess. Best of luck to you.

[Stargazer]

On 10/27/2025 at 11:37 PM, Calm said:

I never had such a perception and it didn’t occur to me that others might as what seemed conveyed to me was that she withdrew from public life as much as possible and didn’t want to get involved in religious leadership having seen the high cost to her family.

I am wondering about others who grew up in the Church as well as those who converted.

As a convert I wondered about the RLDS, and was told by other members that it was started by opponents of Brigham Young, and that Emma joined it later when her son agreed to serve as prophet. I don't recall ever hearing others say that she was instrumental in starting it. 

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

As a convert I wondered about the RLDS, and was told by other members that it was started by opponents of Brigham Young, and that Emma joined it later when her son agreed to serve as prophet. I don't recall ever hearing others say that she was instrumental in starting it. 

The not involved until her son agreed and—being reluctant that he do so prior to his acceptance—is my memory as well.  I wonder now if the JS III’s reluctance idea was pushed to downplay his position as prophet for the RLDS.

Edited November 21, 2025 by Calm