Hitler Baptized

[Mark Beesley]

Krisjhn wrote:

for such characters cannot be forgiven, until they have paid the last farthing

So even Joseph Smith believes that folks such as Hitler can and will eventually be forgiven. Paul I think you just proved most of our points. We are told to do temple work not to judge whose work is to be done. For in the end after every one, including you, has paid their last farthing they will be forgiven.

Isn't that a bit of a misnomer though, to talk about forgivness after someone has paid the debt? As I understand it, forgiveness comes when someone repents and Christ pays the debt for them. When we don't repent, we get to pay our own debts and suffer like Christ suffered. Maybe what the Prophet was saying was that certain people will not be forgiven in the sense of partaking of the resurrection until they have suffered for all of their unrepented sins. But I'm not certain that can be the case either, because in some instances I think a personw will have to "be in the flesh" in order to suffer as Christ did. I don't know. Something to think about. Or not.

[Krisjhn]

Yes, there are some who live without hope who, though having reached such a wrong conclusion, nevertheless maintain right conduct. In such decent individuals, the light of Christ, though unacknowledged, burns still. (See D&C 84:46.) If it were not so, we would despise a Gandhi and admire a Hitler, instead of feeling just the opposite!

Again Paul O this is a straw man.

Gravy, I find it strange that you have such strong feelings about Adolph Hitler's murders, and yet use a picture of a fellow murderer, Che Guevara, as your avatar.

Are you unaware of this man's life (not the Hollywood version, mind you.)

I have wondered this myself. It is slightly offensive that on an LDS discussion board one uses the image of Che as an avitar. I have just figured you really do not know who he is and what he stands for.

On a side note...I find it interesting that in our society we are beginning to celebrate people like Che and find pleasure in destroying our own Presidents such as George W. Bush and Bill Clinton.

[Paul Osborne]

Get behind me Satan.

Paul O

[RichHammond]

I doubt that Hitler will bow the knee. Contrary to popular Mormon myth, God cannot force anyone to bow the knee. Contrary to popular Mormon myth, a man can choose to go into perdition without ever having had the gift of the Holy Ghost. You haven

[DragonLord]

In LDS teaching, Hitler will have to fully pay for all of his unrepented of sins in Spirit Prison/hell. He will suffer even as Christ suffered (D&C 19), and will dwell in hell until every little sin is paid for.

After his punishment is full, why is there any point to wish eternal hell to someone that may/may not deserve it? I am glad that Jesus is judging me, and not Gravy Boat.

Will Hitler achieve exaltation? Probably not. But given that I do not know all of his circumstances, I cannot judge him. I can only judge the evil of many of his acts, and pray no one acts so evil again. Unfortunately, mass killings and genocide continues to this day.

Only God can determine an individual's final destination. I am grateful for that, as there are many that would condemn all Mormons to hell for eternity. IOW, some would place us where others would place Hitler and Stalin. I am thankful I am not the eternal judge for any of us, including the Hitlers in this world.

Dude, I lust after your screen name. It makes me *giggle*.

[Proverbs]

Paul writes:

Contrary to popular Mormon myth, God cannot force anyone to bow the knee. 

Nobody claimed God would force anyone to bow only that they would.

God's Prophets have written:

Rom. 14: 11

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Philip. 2: 10

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Mosiah 27: 31

31 Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be bjudged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye.

D&C 88: 104

104 And this shall be the sound of his trump, saying to all people, both in heaven and in earth, and that are under the earth

[USU78]

Just because I don't choose to use many smilies in my posts does not mean one should avoid the unavoidable:  that my post was intended to point out the absurdity of PO's position.

We are not in the business of judging the dead.  That's somewhat above our pay grade.

It is so hilarious that you label a person's condemnation of Adolph Hitler "absurdity". Actually, it's only funny until I realize you're serious.

{snip}

You who are so eager to forgive mass murderers and serial child rapists know this: many people in this world are not impressed by your supposed moral, righteous higher ground. Your oblivious of for terrorists, Nazis, pedophiles, rapists and mass murderers as if they were all lumped into the "tax evaders and apple thief" pile is grotesque, pitiful and offensive.

Your obedient righteousness regarding Adolph Hitler's temple work is strikingly unimpressive. I, however, am shocked and astonished by your lemming-like mentality. Have you no shame?

How very odd that Observer finds our refusal to judge what happens to somebody in the afterlife hilarious.

How very strange that Observer finds our willingness to attempt to forgive others "grotesque, pitiful and offensive."

How very sad that Observer makes resort to ad hominem dismissals rather than attempt to understand our position.

How very unfortunate that Observer would ape the mock horror of one who 50 years ago made the same resort to a shame he was quite incapable of.

No shame? Please, spare us the histrionics, as no amount of resort to fashionable, and, accordingly, quite safe to assert judgments of people long dead and of whose personal motivations we know very little changes the fact that we aren't the ones supposed to do the judging. Baptize 'em all, let G-d sort 'em out should be our motto.

[Krisjhn]

You who are so eager to forgive mass murderers and serial child rapists know this: many people in this world are not impressed by your supposed moral, righteous higher ground. Your oblivious of for terrorists, Nazis, pedophiles, rapists and mass murderers as if they were all lumped into the "tax evaders and apple thief" pile is grotesque, pitiful and offensive.

Your obedient righteousness regarding Adolph Hitler's temple work is strikingly unimpressive. I, however, am shocked and astonished by your lemming-like mentality. Have you know shame?

I do not think we are eager to for give mass murders and the like. I think that we like the prophets have taught, try to forgive the sinner but not justify the sin. It is not easy to think that someone like Hitler will receive some kind of Glory...[personally I am not 100% convinced he will]...but like USU said it is "above our pay grade" to condemn people to hell.

We are taught to love and forgive everyone. The gospel does not allow us to detour from this. It does not allow us to pick and choose who we do and do not want to forgive. I always admire those people who forgive someone who has committed an acts of autrocities against them or a close family member. This is truely a Christ like attitude. One we should admire not scorn or call lunacy.

[Observer]

  I for one honestly do not care...

Finally. A simple, short explanation for many drawn out attempts at righteous obedience in this thread.

Like I said: who needs anti-Mormons while y'all are putting their efforts to shame quite nicely.

[Del March]

101. I will NOT forgive Adolph Hitler (a blatant disrespect for every victim of the beast)

102. I will NOT forgive Osama bin Laden (also a blatant disrespect for every victim of the beast)

That's complete crap. Anyone refusing to forgive my grandfather would NOT pay me respect, quite the opposite! He sexually abused me, gave me emotional scars for life, and almost destroyed my life. But I have learned to rely on my Saviour's grace, and I have taken to heart His commandment to forgive all men. By doing so, I have found a peace and a joy I never thought I could have. When I think of my grandfather now, I feel mostly pity for a man who is most likely still stewing in Hell. And if by chance he repents, I will be more than happy to hold him in my arms and tell him I've forgiven him too!

You who are so eager to forgive mass murderers and serial child rapists know this: many people in this world are not impressed by your supposed moral, righteous higher ground. Your oblivious of for terrorists, Nazis, pedophiles, rapists and mass murderers as if they were all lumped into the "tax evaders and apple thief" pile is grotesque, pitiful and offensive.

One thing every Christian should always remember is that without the Atonement of Christ, we would ALL be in the same bag, along with all those "monsters" : in the bag of the condemned. Without the Atonement, we would all be spending eternity with Hitler and Bin Ladin. But Christ came, and offered us a chance to get out of there, gratis. And what did He ask in exchange? Well, among other things, that we forgive all men. He made it clear: we must forgive all men, if we want our Heavenly Father to forgive us in the end.

I know I want to be forgiven in the end, and I know forgiving people who hurt me brings me peace in this life. It's up to you to know what you want in this life and in eternity. But you shouldn't mock and insult those who choose peace and eternal life through obedience to God!

Del

[USU78]

[Del March]

And PO is, I suppose the one to do the cleaning?

If so, I suggest starting with

What did de Gaulle do that was so horrible as to put him with the likes of Hitler ???

Del

[Observer]

Just because I don't choose to use many smilies in my posts does not mean one should avoid the unavoidable:

[USU78]

And PO is, I suppose the one to do the cleaning?

If so, I suggest starting with

What did de Gaulle do that was so horrible as to put him with the likes of Hitler ???

Del

It was a joke. An obscure one, I'll grant.

Been rereading Le Neant recently. It's making me silly.

[HiJolly]

A few suggestions: those of you U.S. citizens who also "forgive" Osama bin Laden or other members of Al Quaeda, please forfeit your U.S. citizenship and travel as soon as possible to Iraq. There's a man there by the name of Zarqawi who is in need of forgiveness, a kiss and a little of God's love in the form of your caring bear hug. Don't prejudge him by wearing a titanium collar around your throat, just trust in the Lord's advice: LOVE YOUR ENEMIES.

Also, please petition the United States Congress to dismantle the entire judicial system of the United States. We, after all, are not worthy to judge our fellow "enemies" (who we LOVE). And please stop holding your children close when you realize a multiple offense child rapist lives next door. Love him. Do not judge him! Prove your acceptance of God's commandments by offering to setup unsupervised play dates. Truly LOVE your enemies, forgive ALL men, and your reward shall be great in the hereafter.

...flush

I'm sorry, but...

What garbage!

HiJolly

[juxtaposed]

Just because I don't choose to use many smilies in my posts does not mean one should avoid the unavoidable:  that my post was intended to point out the absurdity of PO's position.

We are not in the business of judging the dead.  That's somewhat above our pay grade.

It is so hilarious that you label a person's condemnation of Adolph Hitler "absurdity". Actually, it's only funny until I realize you're serious.

{snip}

You who are so eager to forgive mass murderers and serial child rapists know this: many people in this world are not impressed by your supposed moral, righteous higher ground. Your oblivious of for terrorists, Nazis, pedophiles, rapists and mass murderers as if they were all lumped into the "tax evaders and apple thief" pile is grotesque, pitiful and offensive.

Your obedient righteousness regarding Adolph Hitler's temple work is strikingly unimpressive. I, however, am shocked and astonished by your lemming-like mentality. Have you no shame?

How very odd that Observer finds our refusal to judge what happens to somebody in the afterlife hilarious.

How very strange that Observer finds our willingness to attempt to forgive others "grotesque, pitiful and offensive."

How very sad that Observer makes resort to ad hominem dismissals rather than attempt to understand our position.

How very unfortunate that Observer would ape the mock horror of one who 50 years ago made the same resort to a shame he was quite incapable of.

No shame? Please, spare us the histrionics, as no amount of resort to fashionable, and, accordingly, quite safe to assert judgments of people long dead and of whose personal motivations we know very little changes the fact that we aren't the ones supposed to do the judging. Baptize 'em all, let G-d sort 'em out should be our motto.

I concede, USU78... you're right. I feel so ashamed and silly for refusing to forgive a person like Adolph Hitler (my nerve!!!). I feel so ridiculous while condemning attempts to minimize or in some other way disregard the crimes of a genocidal mass murderer.

A few suggestions: those of you U.S. citizens who also "forgive" Osama bin Laden or other members of Al Quaeda, please forfeit your U.S. citizenship and travel as soon as possible to Iraq. There's a man there by the name of Zarqawi who is in need of forgiveness, a kiss and a little of God's love in the form of your caring bear hug. Don't prejudge him by wearing a titanium collar around your throat, just trust in the Lord's advice: LOVE YOUR ENEMIES.

Also, please petition the United States Congress to dismantle the entire judicial system of the United States. We, after all, are not worthy to judge our fellow "enemies" (who we LOVE). And please stop holding your children close when you realize a multiple offense child rapist lives next door. Love him. Do not judge him! Prove your acceptance of God's commandments by offering to setup unsupervised play dates. Truly LOVE your enemies, forgive ALL men, and your reward shall be great in the hereafter.

...flush

There's a rather significant difference between "willingness to forgive at some point in the far future" (which is what the temple ordinances for the dead is about) versus "willing to forgive right now".

The former does not presuppose the latter.

Also, I don't see how it would minimize the crime if you required the criminal to make up for their crime in full.

[Krisjhn]

A few suggestions: those of you U.S. citizens who also "forgive" Osama bin Laden or other members of Al Quaeda, please forfeit your U.S. citizenship and travel as soon as possible to Iraq. There's a man there by the name of Zarqawi who is in need of forgiveness, a kiss and a little of God's love in the form of your caring bear hug. Don't prejudge him by wearing a titanium collar around your throat, just trust in the Lord's advice: LOVE YOUR ENEMIES

A wise man once told me that when you are in a hole you should stop digging. Observer you are in a hole...None of the above even makes sense.

Just because we are taught by Christ to love our enemies that does not mean they should not be held accountable and pay for their crimes.

[USU78]

Just because I don't choose to use many smilies in my posts does not mean one should avoid the unavoidable:

[Mark Beesley]

observer wrote:

I feel so ridiculous while condemning attempts to minimize or in some other way disregard the crimes of a genocidal mass murderer.

Which post do you think attempts to minimize what Hitler did?

Which post do you think disregards the the crimes of a genocidal mass murderer?

If some one really wants to be an observer, they should probably first open their eyes so they can see.

[Observer]

A few suggestions: those of you U.S. citizens who also "forgive" Osama bin Laden or other members of Al Quaeda, please forfeit your U.S. citizenship and travel as soon as possible to Iraq. There's a man there by the name of Zarqawi who is in need of forgiveness, a kiss and a little of God's love in the form of your caring bear hug. Don't prejudge him by wearing a titanium collar around your throat, just trust in the Lord's advice: LOVE YOUR ENEMIES

A wise man once told me that when you are in a hole you should stop digging. Observer you are in a hole...None of the above even makes sense.

Just because we are taught by Christ to love our enemies that does not mean they should not be held accountable and pay for their crimes.

Oh but Zarqawi will be held to account for his sins. Just after he beheads you too. But you're not going to let that stop you from loving him, are you (as you are commanded to do)??

[Del March]

Observer, that must be a sad, sad world you live in, if you hold personal grudges against every single murderer in the world.

I know for a fact that holding grudges makes me very unhappy, so I'll let you drown in your dark and stinky mud, while I go and ask Jesus to wash me clean of any resentment and to help me forgive all men, thus bringing me peace and joy.

Del

[Mark Beesley]

Observer (and I use the handle lightly) wrote:

Oh but Zarqawi will be held to account for his sins. Just after he beheads you too. But you're not going to let that stop you from loving him, are you (as you are commanded to do)??

I guess it just shows how far we all are from reaching the state of perfection that Christ told us we should aspire to. When the Romans came to arrest Christ, Peter attempted to defend him and Christ rebuked him. As He hung on the cross, having suffered for the sins of all in the Garden of Gethsemane, having been scourged to the point of death, having been mocked and taunted, He lifted His eyes to His father and implored, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Del March's post about forgiveness as it relates to her grandfather was wonderful. Thank you.

[Observer]

Observer, that must be a sad, sad world you live in, if you hold personal grudges against every single murderer in the world.

I know for a fact that holding grudges makes me very unhappy, so I'll let you drown in your dark and stinky mud, while I go and ask Jesus to wash me clean of any resentment and to help me forgive all men, thus bringing me peace and joy.

Del

Del, I do understand your point (and the excellent points you made earlier).

It is well known that victims of crimes such as abuse are best served by somehow coming to terms with the offender rather than "stewing" in sour resentment and allowing their life to be ruined indefinitely. I completely agree...the most power a victim of abuse has is to better their own life and future, and find some sort of peace or reckoning (forgiveness, if you like) for the entire situation.

That said, I myself (as an uninvolved 3rd party) am not "made whole" and no "peace and joy" is brought upon me as I "forgive" or let go of any "resentment" I have for child rapists, murderers and abusers. It does NOT serve me (or society in general) to seek "peace and joy" regarding heinous criminals. In those cases, society must seek justice (as a consequence) and punishment (also as a deterrent).

I understand your excellent point, and I agree completely when we are discussing the victim's relationship to the abuser. However, does this mean that if a small child (while still a small child) "forgives" or otherwise comes to terms with their heinous abuser that I (or society in general) should heel and seek no further justice or punishment for the offender?

[USU78]

Observer, that must be a sad, sad world you live in, if you hold personal grudges against every single murderer in the world.

I know for a fact that holding grudges makes me very unhappy, so I'll let you drown in your dark and stinky mud, while I go and ask Jesus to wash me clean of any resentment and to help me forgive all men, thus bringing me peace and joy.

Del, I do understand your point (and the excellent points you made earlier).

It is well known that victims of crimes such as abuse are best served by somehow coming to terms with the offender rather than "stewing" in sour resentment and allowing their life to be ruined indefinitely. I completely agree...the most power a victim of abuse has is to better their own life and future, and find some sort of peace or reckoning (forgiveness, if you like) for the entire situation.

That said, I myself (as an uninvolved 3rd party) am not "made whole" and no "peace and joy" is brought upon me as I "forgive" or let go of any "resentment" I have for child rapists, murderers and abusers. It does NOT serve me (or society in general) to seek "peace and joy" regarding heinous criminals. In those cases, society must seek justice (as a consequence) and punishment (also as a deterrent).

I understand your excellent point, and I agree completely when we are discussing the victim's relationship to the abuser. However, does this mean that if a small child (while still a small child) "forgives" or otherwise comes to terms with their heinous abuser that I (or society in general) should heel and seek no further justice or punishment for the offender?

What does this ^ have to do with proxy work for the (unjudged by us) dead in Mormon temples?

Please explain.

[Observer]

Observer, that must be a sad, sad world you live in, if you hold personal grudges against every single murderer in the world.

I know for a fact that holding grudges makes me very unhappy, so I'll let you drown in your dark and stinky mud, while I go and ask Jesus to wash me clean of any resentment and to help me forgive all men, thus bringing me peace and joy.

Del, I do understand your point (and the excellent points you made earlier).

It is well known that victims of crimes such as abuse are best served by somehow coming to terms with the offender rather than "stewing" in sour resentment and allowing their life to be ruined indefinitely. I completely agree...the most power a victim of abuse has is to better their own life and future, and find some sort of peace or reckoning (forgiveness, if you like) for the entire situation.

That said, I myself (as an uninvolved 3rd party) am not "made whole" and no "peace and joy" is brought upon me as I "forgive" or let go of any "resentment" I have for child rapists, murderers and abusers. It does NOT serve me (or society in general) to seek "peace and joy" regarding heinous criminals. In those cases, society must seek justice (as a consequence) and punishment (also as a deterrent).

I understand your excellent point, and I agree completely when we are discussing the victim's relationship to the abuser. However, does this mean that if a small child (while still a small child) "forgives" or otherwise comes to terms with their heinous abuser that I (or society in general) should heel and seek no further justice or punishment for the offender?

What does this ^ have to do with proxy work for the (unjudged by us) dead in Mormon temples?

Please explain.

You really need an explanation? Ok. Del initially objected to my sour resentment and refusal to "forgive" a person - even if that person is Adolph Hitler (citing the reasonable reasons forgiveness should be the answer).

Refusal to simply "forgive" a person such as Adolph Hitler plays a key role when posters such as myself, Paul and others have a problem with temple work being performed for Adolph Hitler. So yes, the whole discussion of forgiveness of heinous criminals directly applies to this thread.