Church Catalog releases John Taylor's 1886 Revelation

[Navidad]

I would like to share a few random thoughts as a historian of the church - not from the church, of the church, or against the church. The entire subject of this thread is a reflection of the challenge of doing sacred history, especially when there are historians who are "for" and "against." The topic at hand is filled with deceptions (on the part of individuals at all levels), personal ambitions, exaggerated statements, denial of what was, jealousies, anger and resentment, faith, belief, sincere confusion, conflated events, micro-events with immense importance, and inconsistencies. This is not unique or specific to the LDS church. It is the result of human stuff. It neither condemns nor exonerates the church. Neither is not the work of the historian. 

The meaning of words is vital to understanding the topic at hand. A term like "approval of the leaders" is fraught with multiple hermeneutics. In the case of the hundreds of plural marriages performed here in Mexico after both manifestos, there was clearly unclear compliance on the part of church leaders with what was happening. A church president didn't need to authorize something. Those who did the deed knew it was ok (with someone in the hierarchy) to do so, sans any formal approval. The informal approval grapevine dominated.

Someone said the LeBarons did not approve of Woolley's statements. Well, I would suggest that may depend on which LeBaron to whom one is addressing the question. The LeBarons are the most powerful Mormons (I use the term intentionally) in Mexico. They also represent a culture more than a faith. The authority of Benjamin F. Johnson tends to dominate here in some circles. The diversity of their personal religious beliefs and experiences is both deep and wide. Its cultural power has overtaken its familial heritage.

As this thread demonstrates, there is and was much confusion about this entire issue between the late 1880s and 1920s. Claims and counterclaims, statements and counterstatements, don't indicate intentional deceit, even though probably was some of that. I think the leaders at every level in those years were genuinely confused about finding and knowing God's will for something critical at that time. Don't lose your faith in your church over the conflation and the confusion. Both were the reflection of the times and of the growing determination on the part of the church to be the Only.  In the "for whatever it is worth" department, I recommend B. Carmon Hardy's books on plural marriage. For me, his works are the best on plural marriage and on the colonies. He was a pioneer LDS historian who lost his membership over his work and other issues. However, he continued his work as a faithful historian, faithful to history and the church he so clearly loved. 

 

[Navidad]

On 6/18/2025 at 4:33 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

I think the revelation given to Wilford Woodruff, and printed in European versions of the Doctrine and Covenants, would be more of an issue had not Pres. Woodruff seemingly contradicted himself with a press release just a short time later.

It's kind of funny the Church thought they could quietly add this 🤞🏻ing it wouldn't blow up.

Just my own personal observation of the life of Wilford Woodruff and that of his son. I don't believe President Woodruff ever got over the rejection, as revelation, by the apostles of his Desert Revelation (sometimes called his Sunset Revelation or Wilderness Revelation) in 1880 or 81. I don't know why, but I believe he took that personally. His son, Abraham died an early death as a result of infection from his wife's illness during a visit to Mexico. One died in Mexico City; one died in El Paso. 

[Navidad]

On 6/16/2025 at 7:36 PM, webbles said:

Don't they trace their authority through the "mighty and strong one"?  Kind of like a restoration of keys given to one of the LeBaron's and then kept in the family?

Their principal source of authority came through Benjamin F. Johnson

[JVW]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Just my own personal observation of the life of Wilford Woodruff and that of his son. I don't believe President Woodruff ever got over the rejection, as revelation, by the apostles of his Desert Revelation (sometimes called his Sunset Revelation or Wilderness Revelation) in 1880 or 81. I don't know why, but I believe he took that personally. His son, Abraham died an early death as a result of infection from his wife's illness during a visit to Mexico. One died in Mexico City; one died in El Paso. 

I'd never heard of the Sunset revelation before. I found the text here and read through it and I am wondering why it's not canonized in the Doctrine and Covenants? I have reservations about how much of it is actually God's word but we've canonized worse and it reads like the D&C does. I wonder how many other revelations there are that could have been canonized but weren't? That was a wild read. https://mormonperfection.com/TLC/RefLibraryFolder/Revelations/RevSunsetRevelation.html

From the prelude (at the bottom of the page)

Quote

he obtained important revelations from the Lord concerning the work of the Twelve Apostles and events which would happen affecting both the Church and the nation. These were submitted to President John Taylor and the Council of the Apostles and were accepted by them as profitable for doctrine, for comfort, for light as to the future and for encouragement in the work of the ministry.

Three things that were mentioned specifically in the text were

Quote

15. The nation is ripened in iniquity and the cup of the wrath of mine indignation is full and I will not stay my hand in judgments upon this nation or the nations of the earth.

24. As I have decreed, so shall my judgments begin at the House of God.

9. Therefore, as I have said in a former commandment, so I the Lord say again unto My Apostles: Go ye alone by yourselves, whether in heat or in cold and cleanse your feet in water, pure water, it matters not whether it be by the running streams, or in your closets;...

11. And what I the Lord say unto you, mine Apostles, I also say unto my servants- the Seventies, the High Priests, the Elders, the Priests and all my servants who are pure in heart and who have borne testimony unto the nations. Let them go forth and cleanse their feet in pure water and bear testimony of it unto their Father who is in heaven.

I know this is a total tangent but whatever, this is a zombie thread anyways. I know that most people don't think about what "ripened in iniquity" means but I believe that it means that priesthood leaders are being intentionally assassinated. Joseph was assassinated, but that's been about it, so I don't view this nation as ripened yet. I do think the day is soon coming when we will see church leaders get assassinated, at that point I will regard any prophecies about what happens to a "ripened" nation more seriously. So I disagree with the text here.

"House of God" is another term for temple. For some reason I thought the judgments would start in the church, not in the temple. I think that's interesting to think about. There are a lot less people who go to the temple than to the church. I wonder if this could allude to some Judases in the church? People who have God's power and intentionally pervert it to use as servants of the devil. I don't doubt that that has happened and is currently happening somewhere, why wouldn't the devil want to use God's priesthood for his own nefarious ends?

The last two quoted verses referencing the washing of feet. I'm pretty sure that's an "elite" ordinance in the temple that most aren't privy to and is part of the second anointing ceremony. Cool to see reference to that here, but strange that it is filtered down to even the Priests and Elders, not just the top brass leadership.

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, JVW said:

know that most people don't think about what "ripened in iniquity" means but I believe that it means that priesthood leaders are being intentionally assassinated.

Seems like it is more than that given Helaman:

Quote

Yea, even at this time ye are ripening, because of your murders and your fornication and wickedness, for everlasting destruction; yea, and except ye repent it will come unto you soon.

 

Edited October 22, 2025 by Calm

[webbles]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Their principal source of authority came through Benjamin F. Johnson

Ah, yeah, they believe that Benjamin had been adopted by Joseph Smith and so received a special "inheritable" authority.  And this was then passed down.  It is definitely a lot different from Wooley's claims.

How accurate would you say https://mormonfundamentalism.com/polygamous-groups/the-lebarons/ is in discussing their early beliefs?

[Navidad]

4 hours ago, webbles said:

Ah, yeah, they believe that Benjamin had been adopted by Joseph Smith and so received a special "inheritable" authority.  And this was then passed down.  It is definitely a lot different from Wooley's claims.

How accurate would you say https://mormonfundamentalism.com/polygamous-groups/the-lebarons/ is in discussing their early beliefs?

As far as it goes, it is accurate. It is also incomplete. Of course it is on a site that has a broad scope, so in fairness, it cannot present exhaustive information. The relationships between LDS and LeBaron are fascinating. The 1980s into the present are fascinating as well. The evolution of the LeBarons to a culture instead of a faith is fascinating. The evolution of the careful crafting of power here in Mexico is perhaps the most fascinating. Joel's church still exists, and they honor him above all others as a religious leader. Their consolidation of power in the Galeana region is fascinating. The murders of 2019 are fascinating. To my knowledge, there has never been an academic study of the LeBarons that has been published. The sensationalism has overwhelmed the scholarship and the non-sensational part of their story. I especially enjoy their interrelationships over time with the LDS folks. It is rarely acknowledged openly, even here in the colonies. The true story of them coming out of the LDS church and their various tenures here is fascinating. The relationships of various fundamentalist groups and the LDS church here in Mexico are fascinating. I have done many talks on these various subjects, and folks just seem to be completely surprised by the interrelationships of the Third Convention, the LDS folks, and the LeBarons. Then there are contemporary groups like the La Mora colonia folks, and it all just gets more . . . . fascinating. Of course it all comes together in the US drywall industry! You guessed it! Ha!