JVW

The thing is is that nobody can tell me that I'm wrong, because nobody knows what being sealed means. Here are some reasonable inferences I've made about it (Please let me know if you think I'm crazy. I'd love to hear rebuttals from you on these points.): - Getting married and being sealed are separate things. - Getting married is until "death do us part". Getting sealed is for "time and eternity". - I believe that God sealed Adam and Eve in a ceremony and that, over time, the devil corrupted the ceremony into what we now know as marriage. That sealing is "God's union" and marriage is "man's union". - Marriage has probably been traditionally coupled with sealing in the church because the U.S. government was looking for any reason to eradicate the church. If the U.S. government let the "Mormons" mind their own business under Brigham's leadership I could easily imagine Brigham doing away with the practice of marriage and only doing sealings in the ghost-state of Deseret. He did crazier things than that. - If I refer to someone as sealed there is a different connotation than when I'm referring to someone as married. - Therefore, there is a difference between a man being married to multiple women at the same time and a man being sealed to multiple women at the same time. I mean, wasn't Joseph sealed (while not being married) to multiple women (some of whom were currently married to someone else) simultaneously? What do you call that? Polygamy? He wasn't married to them! There will be many who are sealed in heaven, but how many will be married? This is all stuff that disappointingly is unanswerable because God, with His mysterious ways, has decided to keep the doctrine of sealing a great secret. We literally know next to nothing about it yet it is the capstone doctrine of our church and the fulfillment of the reason why God created the entire plan of Salvation. I'll also note the conclusion I've reached based off of what little information we have about sealing. Under my view of sealing I view the entire plan of salvation as a pregnancy and sealing as equivalent to the water breaking in the womb. After the resurrection those who are sealed to God become His eternal, exalted family. How do exalted beings create exalted children? The plan of salvation with a savior and a sealing ordinance. - Sealing binds us to God - Sealing requires one man and one woman for some mysterious reason - Nothing else is known - Therefore, to become part of God's exalted family one needs to be sealed I'd love to hear your thoughts @ZealouslyStriving . I feel like you have a lot to say in opposition but you've been kind of sitting on the sidelines of the conversation. On a scale of 1 to 10 how crazy and unreasonable do I sound to you?

The Mormon Stories podcast popped up a little while ago on my FB feed and I've been listening to it for the past 30 minutes or so. It's an interview with the woman being discussed in the OP. She is super cool. Very peaceful, no anger. She says that she felt God helping here with her research into polygamy. And she also felt God with her during the excommunication proceedings that happened in three meetings over a month timeframe. Before the second meeting she had the impression she would lose her temple recommend at the meeting so she went and did baptisms for the dead before going (since she'd never done them before). She's being very kind and generous towards the Stake Council and feels like God is with them as well knowing they're acting according to the best knowledge they have.

It's just a distinction I made up. There's obviously a difference or else the church wouldn't call it plural marriage unless they're just trying to use soft language to mask a harsh reality.

Plural marriage is a man sealed to multiple women simultaneously, whatever being sealed means. Polygamy is a man being married to multiple women simultaneously, consummating each marriage, and living together as married people do. The church actively does the former, excommunicates for the latter. I haven't done a ton of research into plural marriage and how that shows up in LDS canon, mostly because there's just not much out there to study. But as far as my research into polygamy goes, God unequivocally views it as an abomination. If someone used to believe that it was a man's duty to be sealed to multiple women while they were all alive but sealing and marriage were coupled, then the nature of plural marriage would have involved polygamous marriages. The direction the church is currently headed is decoupling marriage from sealing which makes me wonder if living plural marriage will be on the table again in a future where men and women don't need to be legally married in order to be sealed. Who knows?

You're funny, brother. We aren't discussing the history of plural marriage, plural marriage still exists, it's not in the past. We are discussing the history of polygamy, which is different from plural marriage and results in many children and a lot of women in one house while on Earth. Two distinct things. Plural marriage is a bit confusing because there isn't much revelation about it, but it's not really super offensive. Polygamy is crazy and is explicitly condemned by God in the Book of Mormon.

I personally have gained a lot of knowledge and insight because the CES Letter was a catalyst that motivated me to research more about church history. I read several lengthy apologetics pieces, saw what was unsatisfactory to me, and took time to research more sources until my mind was satisfied. It's like when a missionary goes on a mission and they get berated and challenged at every turn. There are so many morning scripture studies where they will read a scripture that jumps out at them as an answer to respond to the attacks. Pondering is like a clam making a pearl, you need an irritant, a piece of sand to begin the process. And critical thinking requires exposure to a novel viewpoint that hasn't been considered before. This forum is really nice because we all have conversations about really interesting things that, really, could be testimony-crushing for many people. There's a time and place to discuss different things related to the church and I'm just very careful about polygamy. Does that make sense and/or answer your question?

I rarely speak to people about my beliefs about polygamy or even what catalyzed my research into polygamy and how I drew my ultimate conclusions. If I had not taken the years that I did to figure it out I probably would have ended up leaving the church. Not because of polygamy, but because of the irreconcilable contradiction between the Book of Mormon and DC 132 that's related to polygamy. I do think there is danger to it and think it's appropriate for church members to believe in the official apologetics until they grow mature enough to consider more difficult matters. It's the same reason why I wouldn't just hand out copies of the CES Letter to any average member. However, there is another dangerous issue that is implicitly related to believing, and parroting, official church apologetics. I have talked to many members who honestly believe that the prophet is infallible whenever he speaks. These members will say to me "I don't believe that the prophet is infallible" but in the same breath will say "the prophet always speaks for God and will never lead the church astray". They cannot tease apart in their mind that a prophet is frail, weak, and human just like the rest of us and says and does a lot of things in his managerial position that are wrong, even if they are according to his best judgment. Joseph and Brigham were in vehement opposition to people viewing prophets as gods and accepting everything they do and say as God's will and blindly following. Yet I see that cancer spread among the membership, at least in Utah. To have power is inherently dangerous. To have power means that you are easily able to break the law. In my position, coming from a background of atheism, I can very easily leave the church. I can easily discount the authority of the men I see who are purportedly prophets. I can easily choose to stop paying tithing. I am not bound by immature, irrational, emotional bonds to the church and its leaders. That makes me more powerful than someone who is because I now get to exercise my agency and intentionally choose which paths forward I want to take. This is in stark contrast to a couple of my cousins who ended up divorcing when they left the church because their entire world was emotionally connected to this earthly religious structure. Hopefully I'm making some sort of sense. I liked your question and writing helps me process my thoughts, so even if nobody reads this it was helpful for me to get this on paper.

Thank you for sharing your experiences. That was very tender and special. I agree with you wholeheartedly. God's love is truly majestic and beyond human comprehension. Your comments reminded me of that talk "Mortality Works!" which gives me a lot of hope, the following two quotes are quite touching Then the speaker's own personal experience with his mother There was an NDE that I watched once that described something really beautiful. The woman had been abused as a child by a close relative and had carried so much pain and trauma her entire life. She died in her 60s and described being in a room that had an ethereal white mist filling it. As she was washed in the mist, like a shower, all of her emotional pain vanished and was replaced with peace and comfort. When she came back to life she had been healed and dedicated herself to helping others and living for God. I hope I can experience that mist before I die, but even if not I am confident that all those who pass on feel a great sense of relief as they leave their worldly burdens and weakness behind while being hugged by God. He gets it. I have this elusive impression that life is more intense and difficult than we give it credit for. He'll certainly pamper us after we return home to Him.

100% agree

I read in a comment that the definition of "sustain" in the old dictionary means "endure". https://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/sustain I like definitions 6 and 7 lol! If these definitions apply then I can sustain quite a lot of brethren! I'm like a turtle, I move slowly but can take a beating and bear burdens on my shell.

I agree and disagree with this. I know in -theory- this is always a possibility but the reality is probably much different. If the prophet, the president of the church, who has all the keys and is in charge of carving out the church's doctrinal path forward, declares new doctrine then how is anyone supposed to know if it's heretical or not? I know that, in -theory-, it has to conform to the standard works and stuff. Also that, in -theory- all of the brethren would get some magical witness from God that the doctrine is correct. But in practice is that actually the case? There are many times that God chooses not to answer and allows us to use our best judgment. And He does that for wise purposes only known to Him. Where I agree with you is that if the prophet does something morally wrong enough, and gets caught, then he would be removed by the brethren. I assume for the prophet that means doing anything that would cause him to lose his temple recommend. But it may not be that sensitive, it might be more like disfellowship or excommunicate type sins that would cause that reaction. Lol! Well I'm glad that my wife loves me even though I am an idiot!

How does that language, which I agree has been pushed historically, reconcile with "the man and woman are one in the Lord". ?

Based off of my personal experiences with God and some transcendent divine experiences I believe that your son is with God and your ancestors. This view is not connected to my religious beliefs, but I do believe that it reflects the reality of your son's current situation. May you find comfort and peace during this tragic time.

I disagree with this. A man can be a prophet, seer, and revelator and promote things that are wrong. I firmly believe that God revealed to me that Nelson was His chosen prophet. I also firmly believe that Nelson's decision to close down the temples for covid was anti-Christ. But in any discussion I had when Nelson was brought up (and there were many contentious discussions alleging otherwise) I always stood in defense of Nelson because of what God revealed to me. And I always respected and sought to follow Nelson's teachings about the gospel. I can love that man and think he's an idiot at the same time, those aren't mutually exclusive things.

I agree with you. I just remarked to my wife the other day about my recently divorced sister-in-law and how if she wasn't in the church she would have a really easy time getting remarried. But, being in the church, no single man of her age is going to want to marry (and not be sealed to) a woman with three children. Another woman I know is in her late 30's and her husband died early last year from brain cancer leaving her single, sealed, with 4 young children. There's no way she's getting remarried either, even though I'm sure she'd make a great wife. I think it's rare that there are instances where a man is willing to marry a sealed woman in the church. I do think that it shouldn't matter how many people either gender is sealed to, I don't think it should be exclusive to man having multiple sealings until church leadership comes out with a revelation explaining why this should be the case. As it stands there is so much messiness in our record keeping that there are doubtless many women who are sealed to multiple husbands, so what's the big deal? When I was on the market my primary concern was to marry someone I wouldn't get divorced from, I didn't really care as much about getting sealed because that doesn't matter until after I'm dead and doesn't impact my quality of life. While sealing may strengthen the marital commitment, I believe that it inversely negatively impacts the female divorcee. Not to mention that it is easy to interpret Jesus as saying, in the New Testament, that a man who is sealed to more than one living woman at a time is committing adultery. The church has done a lot to try and separate marriage and sealing, yet at the same time people view sealing as "marriage +1". We can't have it both ways, which one is it?

To believe that the temple still promotes the practice of polygamy means that we have to believe that people will live in heaven like they do on Earth, intimate relations and all. I don't know if I believe that to be the case, that's all.

I understand your views here but I don't agree with them. This is solely because we don't really know what it means to be sealed, and we don't know what relationships will look like in heaven. If being sealed to multiple women means living like Warren Jeffs or something then I have a big problem with it. But I think heaven is going to be a lot different than we are expecting, and this difference will apply to how we currently view sealings. It sure would be nice if a living oracle of God gave us some more information about sealing! Based off of my reasoning the only conclusion I have reached is that being sealed means being part of God's post-mortality, heavenly family. I don't know why being sealed requires more than one person in the covenant with God, that's the thing I hope will be revealed one day.

Polygamy being an abomination is not my opinion. Jacob 2:24 "Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord." You will be hard pressed to find any clearer statement in the entire standard works. Islam is allowed up to 4 wives in their current religious practices and nobody bats an eye at that. I had a friend in my college days 20 years ago, from Saudi Arabia, who's grandma was the 4th wife, was married at the age of 11, and had 22 children. I find it hard to explain but I can personally reconcile a prophet teaching a false doctrine in error and God supporting the saints who are impacted by that false doctrine. I believe the testimonies of the women who participated in polygamy and am so glad that God supported them in their circumstances. Even though I don't believe that God commanded polygamy, He didn't clear up the misunderstanding while Brigham was alive even though He could have. So in that sense it was God's will for polygamy to be around for 40 years. Just like it's his will to not prevent fatal illness or various physical, mental, or emotional traumas we all experience. Current church apologetics don't make any logical sense to me. I can understand why that Jacob 2 verse gets interpreted the way it does, but it can be interpreted differently (see: https://oneclimbs.com/2024/12/22/why-the-conventional-interpretation-of-jacob-230-falls-short/). But if God commands polygamy to bolster the ratio of the Israel population then why didn't the following do polygamy: Adam, Noah, Moses, Isaac, Nephi. And why do I see the instances of polygamy in the Bible as fearing man more than God, or the result of deception? i.e. Abraham laid with his servant at his wife's request because she didn't believe that God could get her pregnant and pressured Abraham into it. Jacob had more than one wife because Laban deceived him, and then he laid with his servants because his wife's had jealousy issues. Ultimately, the weakness we have is a gift from God (Ether: "I give unto men weakness..."). I view church history having the blemish of polygamy, in addition to other things, as a weakness. So it is a gift from God. My favorite stories are those that I learn of where God worked through someone's weakness to show His power. Because if He can do so much with the people in those stories, what can He do with me who is even weaker? - David murdered Uriah to get Bath-Sheba, and that is the bloodline that God chose for Jesus Christ came through. -The Constitutional Convention was run by a bunch of drunk people (their tab to celebrate the closing of the convention, for 50 people in one night, was ~$16k in 2022 money and amounted to "about two bottles of wine, several shots and a few cups of punch and beer for every guest." see: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2022/01/20/fact-check-george-washingtons-expensive-bar-tab-real/5947984001/), and we got the Constitution out of it, a document that Apostles testify as having divine authorship (see: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2021/04/51oaks?lang=eng). - Abraham heeded his wife over God's promise and had 8 children with two wives, and yet God's chosen people came through his lineage, with that covenant being renewed by Jacob who did similar things.

She's pretty fun to read lol. I'm just happy to have some perspective on where she goes wrong. I've only read a few of her articles but her magnesium one had a really fun comments section with all sorts of qualified people saying how she's wrong and others defending here. I love when comments sections have a bunch of debate, hence why I moved here for the OP article b/c debate wasn't happening on that article.

How does it prove to you that God isn't always in the details?

Trey Kennedy did an hour long movie on YouTube a couple of days ago that was a parody of Hallmark movies and in it he sings "I Want A Hippopotamus For Christmas" and it's the greatest thing I've ever heard. 10/10

How does it prove that God isn't always in the details?

Thanks, I appreciate the clarification. I meant that the Manifesto was issued that quickly, sorry I should have been more specific.

https://www.thechurchnews.com/members/2025/12/16/update-to-general-handbook-outlines-more-flexibility-in-bible-usage-home-church/ The most interesting quote for me was and So it looks like the church now has "official" translation recommendations. There's no way they are going to buy the licenses for the copyrights for these texts for their membership to use, so it'll definitely be KJV on the app, site, and in Deseret Book and then let people bring whatever they want to church. I still believe that soon the church will release an official translation of the Bible that they did internally and call it the LDS version or something. Also, my favorite translation of the Bible is the Tree of Live Version (TLV).

Thank you all for your responses, this is exactly what I was hoping for! I've learned a lot of interesting things from you all.