JVW

Ok. Thank you for your response to his text. It was very revealing and I appreciate the time you took to address it. Thank you.

Ever hear of the Patriot Act and Edward Snowden?

This morning I was talking to my wife about these verses in the Doctrine and Covenants. I even thought about starting a separate thread about it because stuff is getting really crazy out here in Utah. First there was the Charlie Kirk thing, then like the next day a bomb failed to explode that was planted on a news van. Then today this news article came out https://kslnewsradio.com/utah/2-young-girls-found-in-refrigerated-trailer-at-scene-of-lindon-accident-police-say/2246543/ . What the hell is happening to my little quiet corner of the world? I just want a quiet place to raise my kids in peace, is that too much to ask? Doctrine and Covenants 112:23-26 It feels like maybe that whirlwind beginning in God's house has started.

Either side who is using this murder for political motives is cold and heartless. Trying to attribute the killer as far-right or far-left will ultimately have the same consequence. Whichever side he is grouped with (which, he should be grouped with the Ted Bundy side, not even on the political spectrum but on the sanity and violence section) that group will be demonized and vilified by their opposition, and if violence increases in the world, which it has, and surely will continue, people who are aligned with that ideology will become future targets for murder. I think that is the problem inherent in Jimmy's situation. He has a wide reach, and his words could lead to an entire group of people being the target of violence because of how volatile and fresh the situation is. The shameful part of this situation is that it's not Kimmel's fault. He doesn't write his own jokes or speak his own opinion. I think the producer or parent company should be held liable instead of using Jimmy as a scapegoat. As of right now, from what I understand, due to how quickly, sloppy, and slanted the reporting has been, people have reason to believe he is both far-right and far-left, depends on if what your personal views are or how much research your willing to do, or how much you believe what you read. I enjoy exploring the conspiracy theory side of things, and there are already many conspiracy theories popping up around this. I am really interested in watching the court case unfold and the evidence presented. At this point in time I don't believe that the text exchange between him and his lover is real because of AI and how cleanly the text exchange covers the motive, weapon, location, etc. and the FBI has made no declaration about an ME report or even finding the bullet that was shot and tying it to the gun.

@Notatbm I don't know that you'd ever respond to this if I didn't tag you so I 'm tagging you. I'm really curious to read your response to this. There are assumptions and inferences made here based off of what you've posted so far in the thread and I'm curious how accurate they are. How you felt while reading this post? Is there any truth to it? What is correct, what is possibly correct, what is possibly wrong, and what is absolutely false about the thoughts expressed by Pyreaux? I personally love when people call me out on my crap because it invites deep introspection. I typically do not respond with hostility to these kinds of call outs. I don't know that I've ever dealt with them through avoidance, which is what you appear to be doing. Please, if you would be willing to, take a few minutes to share your thoughts about what Pyreaux has stated in the quoted text above.

Do you mean "Things As They Really Are" or "Things As They Really Are 2.0"?

I don't like this. Unless hate speech laws are clear, and followed to the letter, and are hard to change, then it is very easy for anyone to sue anyone for hate speech, or for the government to declare hate speech against a political opponent. There was a girl in Brazil recently that fled her country and became a refugee after facing up to 25 years in prison because she wouldn't honor a politicians gender identity and she was charged with 5 counts of "social racism". https://reduxx.info/exclusive-brazilian-woman-granted-refugee-status-in-europe-after-facing-25-year-sentence-for-misgendering-trans-politician/ What's to stop the next leftist president to declare [insert conservative talking point here] as hate speech? What's to stop current rightist president from declaring [insert leftist talking point here] as hate speech? Her examples are good examples. Death threats, swatting someone, doxxing, etc. Those are serious things. But how easy is it to change the law here to become more subtle like how it's becoming in other countries? I don't think that government officials, regardless of how they're grieving or feeling, should say anything other than, "We will protect and respect your right to speak freely according to the law, here is the law, have a nice day." This post sounds more threatening than consoling. I.... feel like I just posted a political post and will gladly delete it if I crossed the line. I'm not interested in crossing that political line on this forum.

I'm reminded of my favorite verse in the Bible, Mark 10:18 Anyone who believes that they are the arbiter of what is right, what is good, and what is truth, is wrong. For the record, I do not feel this way about myself. There is none who are good, only God. None of you are God, cut Charlie some slack. I believe that it is right to "mourn with those who mourn" and "comfort those who stand in need of comfort", and I will die on that hill. You are not as right as you feel if you are pouring salt on the wounds expressed in this thread. I'm also reminded of this quote from Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn We can find whatever we are looking for. Charlie said a bunch of crap, he said a bunch of good stuff too. And what is the crap and what is the good stuff varies depending on your perspective. Everyone on this message board has said a bunch of crap, and a bunch of good stuff too. Any of us could be roasted and we could feel relief at the passing of anyone if we choose to focus on what we disagree with. It's worth keeping in mind that for his entire career he was in his 20s. Think about how much any of us have changed since our 20s. How the way we communicate has changed, how we view the world. Some of you who are now anti-church may have been missionaries in your 20s! Perhaps in 30 years Charlie would have changed to align more with leftist positions? Who can say? But we'll never find out. I understand that this year he started questioning Israel, which was a really interesting development. Someone earlier posted a quote from Charlie that they described as "vile" and I actually really enjoyed the quote. Does that mean that I am vile? If the poster was God, then yes. But he's not, and isn't it great that he can believe what he wants and speak his mind about his views? And isn't it great that I can disagree and we can still hash things out? My last thought for this post is an article I read recently that offered a unique perspective that I really appreciated reflecting on. https://theradicalcenter.substack.com/p/are-you-cowering-behind-the-courageous Here are some quotes from the article for those who don't care to check it out.

I was going to edit the previous post, but this warrants its own. I think that more members should be disfellowshipped and/or excommunicated. Not a sweeping thing, I just think the church should be more strict. If the state of a person's membership is a tool that can be used to help people repent and return to God, then use that tool! The sooner a person repents, the better, so use all the tools you have. That's what I think. I was speaking with my brother-in-law recently and he is the executive secretary in his ward in Springville. He told me that recently there was a meeting that Bishops were required to attend. And if a Bishop couldn't make it, a counselor was not allowed to attend. It was for Bishops only. In the meeting the apostle or seventy or whoever (he clarified what level of leadership was running the meeting, but my memory sucks, this is like a 2 or 3 week old conversation) told the Bishops that they need to be more discerning in temple recommend interviews and more willing to decline members a recommend renewal if they feel like the Spirit is telling them to say, "no". I think that is a great meeting for the Bishops to have and I was happy to hear it. When he first said there was a "Bishop only" meeting I thought the story would be, "you Bishops aren't being good enough church admins. Tithing is down, ward activity is down, do better." Like the Bishop equivalent of an Elder's Quorum opening chat about how everyone sucks at ministering. I was pleasantly surprised to hear that instead of focusing on admin, they were telling the Bishops to do better at what really matters, what a Bishop is supposed to really do, be a judge in Israel. It has bothered me for some time that probably 90% of an Apostles work in the modern church has been administrative when it is well known that the Apostles only *required* role is to witness of the resurrected Lord. I hope and believe that this story indicates that the winds are changing and the church leaders won't have to focus as much on admin and will focus more on being witnesses of Christ and judges in Israel, etc.

I'm pretty sure that you don't have to have a current temple recommend to buy garments. After you are initially authorized to wear them, you can buy replacements for the rest of your life. AFAIK. My mom was one of those weirdos. She hated God and was done with the church for 10-20 years before she passed yet continued to wear her garments at least 90% of the time and also was adamant about living the law of chastity. So, because single men who are divorced and middle aged all want sex, she never got remarried. My mom was actually pretty crazy though, she had a lot of issues, many issues. ------- According to what you've posted so far in this thread, it sounds like your family is pretty messed up and they've really done a number on your soul (or however you want to define your outlook, consciousness, baseline state of being, way of thinking, etc.). I'm so sorry that you've had to deal with a crappy family. I have had to deal with the same, and I have several friends who also are in crazy families of a similar nature to yours. It really did a number on me and there have been many times that I've thought (after I wasn't atheist anymore) "If I existed before I was born, and God is picking out a family for me to be born in to, why in the hell did he put me in this one?" I've thought that many times. My family is a wreck. And I had a very bitter taste in my mouth about religion for most of my life as a result. Even to this day, after 15 years of working with God to heal, I am still so broken as a result of my upbringing. So I am really sorry that you are having to deal with all of that crap from your family. May God bless you, brother.

I'm reminded of the CGPGrey video about this topic, it's an oldie but a goodie and runs 6 minutes long I'm naturally not a very emotional person so I tend to keep my composure well. Every once in awhile I'm in a bad mood and I'll say something uncouth or downright mean online. But I find that getting in a yelling argument in real life is so much more enjoyable when I gotta get rid of some sort of anger I'm feeling and I would highly encourage everyone to get at least one friend or family member with whom they can disagree with, yell at, and then continue being friends with afterwards. There is a lot lost in translation online, and typing angrily is just so empty and not satisfying. Arguing in real life and getting all of that adrenaline pumping and everything is 10/10, would recommend. As far as how anger is used to make money. Well, see the video linked above, and also I would add that there isn't a single aspect of human psychology that is missed when it comes to a corporation wanting to make money. We are all so doomed. I blame it all on that one guy who literally wrote the book on propaganda who was the nephew of Sigmund Freud and worked in advertising in America. I don't recall his name at the moment and am behind on work at the moment. I used to be heavily plugged into politics and the online town square. I don't doubt that at the time my feelings were being manipulated a lot by my social media feeds. This was during Covid times. Then one day I actually got sick with covid and for several days I was too sick to go online and look at stuff. When I got well enough to see what people were chatting about covid had vanished, seemingly overnight, from online discourse. The conversation had shifted abruptly to Ukraine/Russia, and that was eerie to me. Fast forward a few weeks and two of my neighbors visited me in their priesthood capacity as Ministers. One said he was so anxious and scared that Russia was going to nuke everyone and I wanted to give the poor guy a hug. I asked how the other brother was doing and he said, "Last week I prayed to God that He would kill Putin." I asked him if he'd ever prayed for the death of any other major political figure? He responded, "No, but I feel good about it." And it just made me feel so terrible to hear that. Here was a man, in my home, supposed to be representing Jesus, telling me he was praying for the death of another. That was the moment when I realized how powerful propaganda is, and that I'm not immune to its effects. Since that time I have significantly scaled back my online media consumption and am trying to eliminate the last vestiges of it by the end of the year. I have been much less angry as a result, and life has felt a little brighter and more hopeful. My wife has an Irish temperament and she used to get so mad at me because I wouldn't get mad at her and yell back when she was having her temper flare up. I used to be the most pacifistic person on the planet. I've had to practice over time, in an environment where I can feel safe doing so, expressing myself when I'm feeling angry. Now my wife and can yell and scream at each other, have a great time, then cool off, have some dinner, and talk about the weather. It's so nice. My last thought in this random collection of thoughts is this. Anger is a gift from God. As a society, we tend to think that feeling happy is good, feeling sad is bad, feeling anger is bad, feeling excited is good, etc. But all emotions we feel are gifts from God, and they all can serve a beautiful purpose to make life better and to accomplish tremendous things and make a difference. So if you ever feel angry, please don't hate yourself for it. Try and use it appropriately to bring the right amount of sharpness to your words and actions and practice using it in a righteous way. An emotion can be used as a virtue or a vice.

I think it's worth considering the inverse as well, when we talk about tragic events that occur around the world. Consider the above quote flipped, like so, The issue isn't in who is mourning and who isn't. The issue is how many are celebrating the cold-blooded murder of an innocent man. Whether it's the ultra rich insurance CEO, or the guy who, for better or worse, liked to publicly chat with college kids about politics, celebrating murder is wrong. I have friends who's bosses and coworkers have been celebrating. I have a friend who's a professor at BYU who is incredibly distraught because there are many professors there who have been celebrating. And if people were celebrating school shootings, everything that I've stated still applies. It's awful. It's sick. To me, it is clear evidence that there is a devil.

Before I begin I want to thank the forum for allowing this discussion to happen even though it is a politics related discussion. Thank you. This event occurred very close to where I live and it's had a very real impact on my family and community. I know people who were there in the front row when it happened (one of whom is a friend of my under 10 year old daughter), I have a friend who is a professor at that university. I hadn't really heard of Charlie before this happened. It feels to me kind of like how 9/11 felt, I think I'll always remember this day because of how close to home it was in little old Orem, Utah. My wife and I have been in mourning, it is such a sick and awful situation and so shocking. Anyone who is celebrating his death has their heart in the wrong place. The day that it happened I messaged my boss and told them I had to take a half day. They were very compassionate about my situation. The next day in our morning meeting, after having researched who Charlie was, they stated that there was a silver lining to the situation; that he was a fear-mongering bigot and there's one less bad person in the world. That response made me feel sick. Celebrating, in any capacity, cold-blooded murder of one who didn't commit any crime is just plain wrong. One thing that keeps running through my mind is that I'm only a hop, skip, and a jump away from where Charlie was. I love to debate people. I love talking religion and politics. I actually empathize with many angles to various issues. And I think that most people make really valid points and I can see where they are coming from. But if I approached the public square and debated people, there are many in the world who would cheer and celebrate my death if I had a following, and that thought makes me feel sick too. This is not only the case with those who believe the same way that Charlie did: in Jesus Christ, in his country, in the sanctity of life. This is also the case for any of you who may believe that an AI governed communist state is the ideal, or that children should be able to make sexual decisions before puberty, etc. There are those who would cheer your deaths if you had a following and were murdered in cold blood. That is just plain wrong. It is not ok. For many years I have told people that in order to "love your enemy" you first need to recognize who your enemy is. In the past, I have had to be very discerning about who among us would be potentially or actively harmful to me or my family. The response to this murder makes it a little easier for me to see who the enemy is. Who is destructive, cold, heartless, and vindictive. I will not mince words here. You all know I'm a very gentle, friendly type of guy. And even months from now I will still enjoy lively discussion, even with those I can now recognize as evil people. It takes all kinds, and that's what makes life fun. But a line has been drawn. Perhaps the most tragic thing about this situation is that now that people can discern who their enemy is so easily (on either side of the line, horror or celebration), there will be no love there, only violence and contention. It is my opinion that "love your enemy" is the hardest of all of God's commandments to keep, and the one which requires the greatest change of heart. I will also add here that I have learned to love my enemy. I do not hold grudges, I do not dismiss or belittle others I disagree with, I am not inclined to anger or resentment, and I bear no ill-will towards any member of this forum, regardless of how they've responded to this sick and tragic event. I hope for a future in which people can continue to enjoy lively debate and be respected, regardless of what they believe. I hope that people will choose to love their neighbor, walk a mile in their shoes, and stand up for what they believe in, regardless of what they believe. I hope I can honor Charlie's memory by trying to stand a little taller and being a little more committed to my faith and family. I also hope our message board can continue to be a wonderful place to explore all of the dirty, juicy stuff going on in the Church with so much variety of opinion. May God bless us all.

There are church leaders that are closely tied to the UN and all of that kind of stuff too. I've seen people on FB taking that angle that the leaders are apostate because they are globalist. I think even Elder Christofferson did a talk in GC about agenda 2030. And I'm pretty sure we donate a bunch of money and time to UNICEF and those types of organizations. Where did your family members end up going? Are they still religious?

That Hymn isn't LDS. I'm sure you're aware that it was played on the Titanic as the ship was going down. That's kind of funny in its own way because their "being lifted" was sinking into the depths. It invites humility, and I think humility is a necessary prerequisite to loving God or learning how to love Him. But no, I don't think I felt invited to love God, though it is a beautiful hymn it is somewhat somber. It's like when I requested closing my mom's funeral with "God Be With You Till We Meet Again" (also not an exclusively LDS hymn). Does that hymn invite me to love God? Not necessarily. Does it make me cry and has the tune grown on me over the years? Absolutely. Agreed. I'm glad that's been a helpful notion for you. How do you figure that? For not wanting anyone to be filled with hopelessness or despair or bitterness or resentment He sure allows a lot of people to feel that way for many years. He even let Jesus feel despair on the cross when He cried out, "Father, Father, why have you forsaken me?". He did it with Alma the younger in the Book of Mormon when he was "harrowed up" to the greatest degree and was in the depths of despair before being rescued. Even in Joseph Smith's sacred grove experience, before He (allegedly) appeared to Joseph, the devil covered Joseph in darkness and bound his tongue. Even excepting all of that, I'm reminded of a really great man, Matt, I met on my mission. He was a homicide detective and was married to a Messianic Jew. One time he read to me from Ether 12 starting in verse 23. Moroni was complaining about being bad at writing to which God responds with the famous verse, "If men come unto me I will show them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble ... etc." and then Moroni is comforted and remarks about the power of faith and how God laid down His life for the world. Matt then stated this general sentiment, "I see death every day. We will all die. Moroni was complaining about his inability to write and God responded with, 'that's nice, but you have a bigger problem. One day you're going to die, but don't worry, I took care of that for you.' After Moroni gains that perspective you will notice that he doesn't focus anymore on his writing, he focuses on the greatness of God." We all have one foot in the grave. God designed life to be that way. It is part of the human condition. And it leads many to hopelessness, despair, bitterness, and resentment. As a seeker of truth and disciple of Jesus, would I rather die by being cast into a figurative pit, burned at a figurative stake, or raised up on a figurative cross? So, to me, those song lyrics were just addressing this cruel reality we live in, I didn't feel particularly dreary because of them, at least not any more than I have been in this wrestle with God that I've been having. Right back at'cha.

A few weeks ago I sang this little tidbit at church that I think goes nicely with that Book of Mormon verse you shared. From a hymn, "Nearer, my God, to thee, nearer to thee! E'en though it be a cross that raiseth me" Isn't that just lovely imagery. I'm a little closer to heaven because I'm lifted up on a cross. Cheers!

I understand what you're saying here. From my personal experience (not from meticulous study and research) I have found that, regardless of denomination, those who take time to read from their religious texts every day, and take time every day to worship God as they understand Him, tend to behave more like how Jesus (or the theoretical perfect human) would. Jesus said, "I am the truth". Anyone who diligently seeks truth trends towards being more patient, compassionate, selfless, and loving. Specifically regarding Israelite prophets, their purpose is to preach of Christ. If they are a false prophet I can judge that based off of their actions, and whether their words line up with the patterns and evidences I've seen for Christ in my own personal life. (I guess with this next statement I am tying back into the topic.) Truth is reinforced by patterns. Over my life, as I have personally experienced what makes me feel whole and at peace vs what tears apart my soul, I have come to understand what kind of man I want to be, and who I want to study to achieve that goal. And as I slowly learn about the truth, as I hear other's speak and proffer their opinions, I compare those with patterns I've seen in my own life and what I've studied and experienced and use that as a determination on whether or not to believe them. Now don't get me wrong, I am certain that I believe a lot of things are true which are not. I know I am blinded by self-deception and I suffer the consequences of my faith in falsehood every day. But that doesn't mean that I'm incapable of growing into a less deceived person over time. This response is probably a mess but I'm a poor communicator and work has been busy today, so apologies if that's the case.

Me too, brother.

I asked that question to God a few years back during covid times. I was very surprised when He responded within 48 hours. Typically I don't expect an answer to a prayer for 1-2 years. I believe that God can reveal to you the answer to that question, the question I phrased as "How do I know when the prophet is speaking as the prophet vs speaking as a man?" Very briefly, the way I view it is as follows. Moses 6:63 says, "...all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me." So everything God has created points to Christ. When the prophet speaks, who is he pointing to? That's how I begin my determination of what's likely to be God's word or not.

Just wanted to say I really liked this post a lot. Thanks for writing it.

That's interesting because the more I learn about past church leaders the more convinced I am that they were great people. Honestly, I used to not really like Joseph Smith very much because his personality type was similar to my mom's and I have mom issues. But the more I've learned about him the more I've come to respect and admire him. Brigham Young has always been my favorite prophet, based on the sheer amount he accomplished, the faith he lived, and his dedication to helping others. The more I learn about him the more marvel I experience because God did what with him? We are all given weakness as a gift from God. We are all products of our own cultures in our own time periods. We live in a time where if a kid stubs a toe I don't have to worry about him dying. Or if my wife gets sick I don't have to worry about her dying. We are so far removed from death now. Imagine if we were still surrounded by death. If every family had multiple children and wives (via remarriages) dead. Do you think that you'd be the same man with the same views that you currently hold? Society would certainly be different, and marriage would be a much more practical affair. It's like how a man probably won't get a prenup on his first marriage, but after his first divorce he'll get a prenup every time. A man may fall head over heels for his first wife, but after her death, how will his views on marriage change?

Thanks for sharing this clip, it was very good. If you have any other personal favorite clips I'd love it if you PMed me a list that I could work through and enjoy.

I'm not sure whether or not specifics would help either. In my life powerful spiritual experiences are incredibly rare (and if not life changing, at the very least paradigm shifting) and I haven't had any that are contradictory before. In my 15 years of following God, off the top of my head, I count 5 or less powerful spiritual experiences, and I don't think that the count would increase much upon further reflection, because those types of experiences really stick. Each of these experiences mark a dramatic shift in my perspective and how I feel in my heart. They ultimate changed the course of my personal history and who I was becoming as a person. While each of these powerful spiritual experiences revealed truth, ultimately, after the moment passed, my grasp on the revealed truth slipped to become merely words that cannot possibly contain the essence of what I learned. And in all cases the revealed truth was dwarfed like an ant before a skyscraper to the change that was wrought in my heart. Powerful spiritual experiences did not leave me more knowledgeable of the truth as much as they left me with a new heart. I'll share the results of one of these powerful spiritual experiences I've had before. The words that were left were "God doesn't hate me, and He doesn't want me to hate myself." I could tell these words to anyone and they will have little to no impact on the person. These words could have been told to me at any previous time with little to no impact on how I felt about myself. But my heart was healed during that moment with God when the words came. Since that moment I truly do not contain any self-hatred in my heart. No amount of reading books or talking with others could induce that kind of change in me. I lived with self hatred for decades and tried alleviating it via many avenues. Now, if one day I have a powerful spiritual experience in which the words that remain are "God hates me and wants me to hate myself" it won't really matter to me, my heart has already been changed so unless my heart changes again to become self-loathing as the result of the experience it won't really matter to me whether or not there is a contradiction in the words that remain. I have many small spiritual experiences, but those are of the sort that could easily be dismissed or questioned as to whether or not they were divine or just a physiological anomaly. Hopefully I'm speaking the same language as you here.

I want to make sure that I understand you correctly. Are you saying that you have had a powerful spiritual experience declaring the truth of something and then at a later time you had a powerful spiritual experience declaring that that same thing is actually false?

I agree with your sentiment except I wanted to point out that He didn't heal all of His own wounds. He left the scars.