theplains

I don't understand your question about my aspect of timeline. They were resurrected after Christ's resurrection but I cannot say for sure they were raised immortal, never to die again. Lazarus was raised (resurrected) but he died later too. That was my premise. I consider the "first resurrection" as more on a greater magnitude. Similarly, Ezekiel 37:1-14 speaks of a greater magnitude of the Israelites gathering to their land. Isaiah 26 must be taken in the context of the chapters before and after it. It does not specifically address the events surrounding Christ's resurrection around 33 A.D. "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming". Who are those which classify "they they are Christ's" ? By "order" in Doctrine and Covenants 88:96-97, I meant sequence of events - it says the living in Christ are raised first, then the dead in Christ are raised nextr. This is opposite to what the Bible says. Regarding the phrase "then cometh the redemption of those who are Christ's at his coming". Who are these redeemed ones? How do you understand this part of verses 7-8? "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming". Yes. There are degrees of disobedience. Adam and Eve's disobedience in the Garden of Eden had a greater impact on mankind than a person who joins a gang to murder and steal. By perish, I meant John 3:14-15 ("And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life"). By eternal life, I don't mean living life as a God. Varying degrees of sinfulness still put them into one category ("The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth" - Genesis 6:11-13). This is the group of people described in 1 Peter 3:18-19. Only eight were saved from the flood. This is a fearful consideration for all professing Christians.

Hello @InCognitus For some reason, I got the error message "You do not have permission to view this topic" when I tried to view your last reply so I'll create this new post and capture what you wrote. https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/75766-ephraim-the-birthright-and-the-gathering/page/6/#findComment-1210217483 I believe that even non-religious Israelites can know they are descendants of Abraham through Isaac. Accepting God's covenant and being faithful is not necessarily a prerequisite to someone knowing their lineage. I know that my lineage is Italian but I don't know if my Grandfather or Great-Grandfather was an atheist, Roman Catholic, or some other faith. Exodus 12:24-27, for instance, is a memorial to be kept for the faithful Israelites and to have them teach the meaning to their children. Non-religious Israelites may even know about this from historical records or tradition even though they don't observe Passover. Reports of the exodus as well as a global flood is most likely known around the world regardless of one's lineage or faithfulness to God. The land covenant is also emphasized in the passage : "And it shall come to pass, when ye be come to the land which the Lord will give you, according as he hath promised, that ye shall keep this service". They may not have a tradition of the God they rejected but I assume a child would know his heritage from his father. For example, I only know I am of Italian blood because my father comes from Italy. This is despite me not knowing what faith, if any, my previous ancestors had. There are two types of gathering: a] spiritually into the body of Christ and b] gathering to their lands of inheritance. I don't believe in a special gathering of first literal or spiritual Ephraimites or Manassehites to begin a restoration. Jeremiah 16:15 is a reference of them being gathered to their land of inheritance from where they have been scattered to. "But, The Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers" (15). This has nothing to do by servants specifically identified as being of Ephraim's or Manasseh's lineage. The time frame is also not specified as being after 1830. No. But we may find out in the future. I don't believe that an LDS elder can give a patriarchal blessing to one of these people and tell them that they are a literal descendant from either this or that tribe. They are sought out to be gathered to the land that God gave to their fathers. This is literal Israel, not spiritual Israel. Also, these servants are not initially and literally from Ephraim or Manasseh either. The priesthood is not one of the blessings that falls on the firstborn son or daughter of each of all the families within all the tribes of Israel. "His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh". Some other translations have "gore" instead of "push" and "wild ox" instead of "unicorns". See https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/deu/33/17/t_bibles_186017 They tend to agree with the intent being made. See Strong's Lexicon for "push" in that verse. H5055/H5056 (gore or push) is also used in other cross-references. https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h5055/esv/wlc/0-1/ "Now Zedekiah son of Kenaanah had made iron horns and he declared, "This is what the LORD says: ‘With these you will gore the Arameans until they are destroyed.'" (1 Kings 22:11) "Now Zedekiah son of Kenaanah had made iron horns, and he declared, "This is what the LORD says: ‘With these you will gore the Arameans until they are destroyed.'" (2 Chronicles 18:10) And "Through you we push back our enemies; through your name we trample our foes" (Psalm 44:5). https://www.blueletterbible.org/niv/deu/33/17/p0/t_corr_186017 We find the same thing in Exodus 21:32,36: "If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned". "Or if it be known that the ox hath used to push in time past, and his owner hath not kept him in; he shall surely pay ox for ox; and the dead shall be his own". "Push" is a reference to gore. https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/exo/21/32/t_conc_71032 https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h5055/kjv/wlc/0-1/ https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/exo/21/36/t_conc_71036 https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h5056/kjv/wlc/0-1/ The passage that you refer to is not depicting what you believe. While Judah would be the leader of Israel, the superiority of Ephraim over Manasseh was also confirmed. Matthew Henry's commentary says, " It appears from the Ephraimites' contests, both with Gideon (Judges 8:1) and with Jephthah (Judges 12:1), that they were a warlike tribe and fierce. Yet we find the children of Ephraim, when they had forsaken the covenant of God, though they were armed, turning back in the day of battle (Psalms 78:9; Psalms 78:10); for, though here pronounced strong and bold as unicorns, when God had departed from them they became as weak as other men". See https://www.studylight.org/commentary/deuteronomy/33-17.html Zechariah 10 speaks of the restoration of Judah and Israel (the northern and southern kingdoms). This is again alluded to in Ezekiel 37:15-28. This is clearly identified in verses 21-22. "And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all". Zechariah 10 doesn't mention Ephraim being gathered first. You make the mistake by interpreting "them" (verses 8-12) as only "Ephraim" and not any of all the other tribes. Even "Judah" (in verse 3) is not only the tribe of Judah, but rather the southern kingdom. "Mine anger was kindled against the shepherds, and I punished the goats: for the Lord of hosts hath visited his flock the house of Judah, and hath made them as his goodly horse in the battle". The northern kingdom (representative of Ephraim) is never specifically referred to as the flock of God. We see special emphasis on Judah again in Isaiah 5:7 ("For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry"). You failed to consider the symbolism representing the people who were not permitted to enter the brazen sea: all Israelite women, all Israelite men who did not belong to the Aaronic/Levitical Priesthood, and all the Gentiles. This is not about LDS temple workers giving men and women who participate in a temple ordinance a new name like Jane or John without the white stone. You are right. This are expected to keep this name private. But it is rumored that all the men are given the same name, and likewise for the women, on that day. Male and female names alternate for the next round of initiates. I'm not sure how many names are in the rotation throughout the year. So it's like semi-private. The temple worker knows all the names and they are the same. I cannot prove this but it's what I hear from ex-Mormons. This secrecy was for protection. Sacred things were not kept secret or withheld from fellow Christians. But this secret keeping, where persecution is not in question, is contrary to what we see in the LDS Church. Temple-going Latter-day Saints keep secrets from all other non-temple-going saints. In America, where we have the freedom to gather and worship, our churches don't engage in secret marks or rites. We most likely see this continuing in places like China and Russia though. An applicable verse to some in the LDS Church and all outside it is Matthew 7:6 ("Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you"). The disciples only gathered in the temple for prayer and worship. Temple ordinances were only performed by the Levitical priests. Acts 15:10 says, "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" This verse is part of the discussion during the Jerusalem Council, where the early church leaders were deciding whether Gentile converts needed to follow the Law of Moses. Peter is speaking here, emphasizing that they shouldn't impose the same burdens on the Gentile converts that even their ancestors struggled to bear". Maybe you consider the Old Testament writers stupid for describing all that adorned the temple or what the priests did therein. It was all sacred but it was not a secret. Supposedly it was all a secret in the Book of Mormon because you don't hear a peep about the inside of a temple. You don't even have any mention of the Nephites observing traditional Jewish festivals, such as Passover or the Feast of Tabernacles. Now that's what I call a secret. The commandments as we know it do not come into existence until the Law of Moses. Instructions on offerings and sacrifices were not explicitly detailed in written form as they were later in the Law of Moses. The giving of offerings is not widespread prior to the Mosaic Law as you believe. While no individuals are specifically mentioned in the Book of Mormon, the Bible identifies key figures as making offerings: Cain, Abel, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The Pearl of Great Price only mentions Adam, Cain, and Abel. The story of Adam offering a sacrifice to God is found in the Pearl of Great Price. Moses 5:5-6 says, "And he gave unto them commandments, that they should worship the Lord their God, and should offer the firstlings of their flocks, for an offering unto the Lord. And Adam was obedient unto the commandments of the Lord. And after many days an angel of the Lord appeared unto Adam, saying: Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me." This post by LeSellers back in 2011 shows a statue that used to be (may still be?) in the Visitor's Center on Temple Square. It depicts Adam and Eve offering what appears to be fruit (the offering of Cain). https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/56085-temple-square-art-work/?do=findComment&comment=1209059315 They are not mentioned in any of the LDS canon of scriptures. Abraham built an altar to the Lord as an act of worship and gratitude. No instructions were provided. As I mentioned before, the making of altars or giving offerings was not as widespread as you believe. There is an example in the Book of Mormon where Lehi builds an altar of stones but there is no indication that he followed a certain pattern or received instruction from God (1 Nephi 2:7). I don't find Lehi or his sons making any other altar after they are said to have arrived in their land of promise. There is also no mention of altars or temples among the Jaredites or any such remains being discovered by the Nephites. In the Book of Mormon, there is no specific mention of Levite priests making offerings in the temple. There is no record of altars or temples among the Jaredites or them using mountain tops to give offerings to God. Only one mountain is mentioned in the Book of Ether, named Zerin ("For the brother of Jared said unto the mountain Zerin, Remove—and it was removed. And if he had not had faith it would not have moved; wherefore thou workest after men have faith"). The Bible is absent of temples prior to the one in Jerusalem. Abraham did not make the Kaaba (a temple?) as Muslims believe. The purpose was to establish a covenant with the Israelites. The one temple in Jerusalem would become the one and only one sanctioned by Him. There was no temple or tabernacle before the days of Moses. Sacrifices and offerings were made as an act of worship. They were not commanded by God, as indicated in the Pearl of Great Price, until the Mosaic Law is given. I agree with you. Many "whys" are not answered. I viewed it. Roman Catholics (pre-Vatican II), Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Catholics, and some Anglicans/Lutherans traditionally had priests face away from the people during liturgy, symbolically leading the congregation in worship toward God. Some even used large veils, but the laity could not pass through. "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God". The veil was torn from top to bottom as Jesus entered the Holiest by his blood. He became the way that we enter the Holiest too, without the veil but by the blood of Jesus. The Israelites, who were not permitted to enter the Holiest place, could now enter by faith in Christ. They did not need the Levitical high priest anymore. Christ is the only high priest over the house of God. Besides baptisms for the dead, what other temple ordinances do you believe they participated in? Levitical priests continued to operate in the temple ordinances prior to its destruction. I see only one temple in Revelation 3:12. Miracle and revelation from God continue in our day. I believe in the same gifts of the Holy Spirit that were present in the early church. But I don't see anything on the level of "Thus saith the Lord" to start adding to our canon. I also don't see what was experienced in 1 Kings 8:10-11; where the glory of the Lord fills the house and the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud. I suppose individual groups could print their own Bibles and add what they believe to be extra revelations. Or they could just consider sermons as revelation from God without the need to create a 67th or 68th book The last thing canonized in the Standard Works of the LDS Church was back in 1978 I think. Is the Doctrine and Covenants therefore a closed canon until something new is added? I may be wrong but most of the D&C deals with the time before the saints travelled to the Salt Lake Basin in 1847. Very little is written between that time and our present day. As the Apostle John said, "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen". The co-heirs with Christ are taught by the LDS Church to be the Gods (the exalted beings). Those in the two lower divisions of the Celestial Kingdom and the Terrestrial Kingdom are not in the presence of God the Father. They don't have eternal life as they had not endured to the end (2 Nephi 31:16,20; 33:4; 3 Nephi 15:9). The telestials and terrestrials will be moved somewhere else I suppose. Faith in Christ's blood atonement brings us into the holy place without us needing to go into a temple or requiring the assistance of a sinful, earthly high priest who asks for signs and tokens that must be answered correctly so he can pull you into the proverbial presence of God through a veil. There were likely individuals from other tribes living in Jerusalem and its surrounding areas. This is because after the division of the united monarchy of Israel, some members of the northern tribes may have migrated to the southern kingdom for various reasons, including religious ones, as Jerusalem was the center of worship with the temple. 2 Chronicles 34:21 indicate some of the northern tribes were still in Israel prior to the Babylonian captivity. 1 Chronicles 9:3 indicates some of Ephraim and Manasseh lived in Jerusalem after returning from Babylon. We don't have historical records of these prophets being sent all over the world to the scattered tribes, Jesus coming to them, calling 12 disciples, and then setting up a church among them. The call of John the Baptist, whether he is equated with Elijah and fulfilled a specific prophecy, was specific to all the tribes (Isaiah 40:3). I believe some of each of the twelve tribes was represented in the population at the time of Christ. It's very improbable that 100% of all the population of the northern kingdom was taken captive to Assyria and none returned or managed to flee to the south before it was conquered. Likewise for those who remained in Israel and/or were taken captive to Babylon and then returned. The land promises to Israel were specific as to lineage. And the land inheritance was conditional. I suppose there is not a single person on earth that has 0% blood traces from Abraham in them as a result of cross-marriages throughout time. We should even have some blood traces of people who lived before and alongside Abraham. That promise is eternal life, the same for all faithful Israelites and Gentiles. But the blessings of the land inheritance is still there for a specific people. As a believer in Christ and a non-Israelite, I don't have a specific land inheritance in Canada, the United States, or Australia. In JW theology, only 144,000 receive an inheritance in heaven. The rest of the believers inherit a paradise earth, no specific country or state. I believe those seven churches in Revelation were literal churches at the time. I don't subscribe to the notion that it is symbolic or that a church represents a church age. Not all that was written to a specific church can be applied to the remaining six. You can see this in the specific commendation and condemnation given to each. When and who is the fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:7-9? I believe it is the beast of Revelation 13 and 19, whom Christ casts into the lake of fire at the Second Coming. Satan is cast into the lake and fire after the end of the millennial period, joining the beast and false prophet who are still there (Revelation 20:10). The spirit of the antichrist can reside in different people at different times. It began to work prior to Paul's time and possibly more so in his time. But I believe there will be someone much more evil (two in this case; the beast and the false prophet) who Christ will cast into the lake of fire at the Second Coming. The power, signs, and lying wonders of this man of sin (2 Thessalonians 2:9) fits nicely with those of Revelation 13:7,12-14; 19:19-20. I don't see Titus having a role in the events above or those described in Matthew 24:15-31. Do those in the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms make up the bride of Christ? I see the ten toes as the kings of Revelation 17:12. This verse describes them as ten horns, which symbolize ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom but will receive power as kings for a short time alongside the beast. That much-bigger-thing are the mighty signs and wonders done by the beast and false prophet to deceive the people on the earth just before the Second Coming. The beast and false prophet are present and active in this battle against the returning Christ: "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh". Revelation 13:12-14: "And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live". Revelation 19:20 – "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone". 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12: "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness". These future, lying signs and wonders may even exceed those wrought by the Apostles of the early church. Jesus did not come to create the church as an institution. Besides, high priests were a function of the Levitical priesthood. Christ is our only High Priest, of the lineage of Judah. Ordaining deacons as young as twelve years old was out of the question. Polygamy and concubinage for the servants of the Lord from the beginning of creation until to 1891 (D&C 132:1,38) was a no-no. David's wives and concubines were not given to him at the hand of the prophet Nathan and other prophets (verse 39). I think deification is more about the concept of believers sharing in certain aspects of divine life or nature without becoming a deity. But I see LDS theology differently. Heavenly Father, once a man, became a god and then went on to procreate his own spirit children before sending them to our Earth and other worlds. Unless you believe Heavenly Father was a god even before he was born to his heavenly parents of another world and you too (as an uncreated, eternal intelligence) are also a god before you were born to Heavenly Mother and Father of Earth. Unless spirits are birthed to heavenly parents in adult form, I see them born as infants and then growing into adult form. So one can say that the LDS being who would eventually become a God and Heavenly Father of Earth was an infant born to his heavenly parents. Same for his spirit sister who would become his wife in mortality. George Q. Cannon, former member of the First Presidency taught: "PROGRESSION FROM AN INFANT TO A GOD … That little puling infant may become, in the eternity of our God, a god, to sway power and dominion in the eternal worlds, to be the father of unnumbered millions" (Gospel Truth, volume 1, page 131). Later he writes, "Man alone … By obedience he can ascend from this condition of existence to dwell with his Father eternally in the heavens to become, in fact, a god" (page 154). In simple terms, gods are made (formed). He teaches this again on page 107: TO BE MADE GODS. God has removed doubts from our hearts and our minds concerning these things. We know them. The testimony of God is with us. He bears testimony to us that we are His children. And he wants to draw us to Him, in His arms of love. He wants to save us and exalt us and make us like Himself, clothe us with glory and make us indeed gods in the eternal world, wielding dominion and power". Obedience and reaching a certain level intelligence was also a factor in ranking Jesus a God in the pre-mortal life. This is taught in the Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual. "He is the Firstborn of the Father. By obedience and devotion to the truth he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while yet in his pre-existent state". https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/4-jesus-christ?lang=eng#:~:text=He is the Firstborn,state Which God or Gods are the Brother and Sister Gods (of Earth's Heavenly Father) and Heavenly Father (of Earth) in subjection to? As I mentioned before, Heavenly Father is only eternal in the sense he was never created, he always existed. He is gnolaum. But he has not eternally existed as God. I'll elaborate further in your example of Jack the plumber. One Christian view is that Jesus is the Eternal God. There never was a time when he was not God. Another view (the LDS one) is that he has not eternally existed as God but rather he was an eternal being who became a God. The LDS Jesus constitutes a different Jesus. From what I understand of LDS theology, all the spirit brothers and sisters of Heavenly Father (who became Gods themselves), and Heavenly Father himself (who also became a God), were made priests and kings to their God (the Father above Heavenly Father and all his spirit brothers and sisters. Jesus Grandfather in simpler terms). When other male and females of Earth are said to be made Gods (become priests and kings), Heavenly Father of Earth will be the God of these Gods. When these newly formed male Gods on Earth begin procreating their own spirit children, they will attempt to make their spirit children kings and priests to God (to them, not to their Grandfather God). When you use the phrase "one Eternal God of all other gods", you are only focusing on Heavenly Father's sphere. Do you believe Heavenly Father of Earth is greater than all the beings who became Gods long before Heavenly Father was even born to his heavenly parents? You forget all the other descriptions of the people in that passage: "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Only those led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. These are the heirs. In your logic, only exalted become Gods. It should be worth noting what George Q. Cannon taught about glory and being glorified. "The glory of God consists in the number of His posterity" (Gospel Truth, volume 1, page 116). There's a teaching which goes something like this: "In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it". Who is that head God? Is he the God of all the other Gods? Are these Gods of the past (before Heavenly Father became God of Earth), Gods in the present in other spheres, or children of Heavenly Father who hope to become Gods in the future or who have already progressed to Godhood in the past or present? Moses and Satan are referred to as gods but they are not deities. There are examples in scripture of being exalted but that does not mean being made into a deity. I don't think the early church father had the following concept in mind: "As man is [not a God now] God once was [not a God once]. As God is [now a God], man may become [a God in the future]". Some Christians believe other [false] gods exist or that the gods in Psalm 82 is a reference to human judges. Moses and Satan are also referred to as gods. Alright. The LDS Heavenly Father earns the title of God, meaning he was not God "by title" before. Here is a rephrase of Isaiah 44:6: "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first [doctor], and I am the last [doctor]; and beside me there is no God [doctor]". And a rephrase of Isaiah 43:10: "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God [no doctor] formed, neither shall there be [no titles of doctor bestowed upon anyone] after me". For me, based on how I understand the scriptures, God is always God and never needs to earn the title of God. There never is a time when he is not operating as Doctor. For your Jack example, you are primarily focusing only at the moment Jack becomes a plumber. You don't consider the time before Jack is born. He is eternal but he has not always existed [eternally] as a plumber. Before he goes to school and/or is certified as plumber and gains the title of plumber, he is not a plumber. For example, I am not a dentist or electrician until I get all the training and certification and a license. Being eternal + becoming a plumber does not equal "Jack has always existed as a plumber even before he started plumbing". Same for hockey. John learns how to play hockey and the coach says you will always be a goalie from now on. Has John always been a goalie? Only from the moment his coach makes him the goalie. Was John a goalie before playing hockey? No. He didn't even know what hockey was or how to skate on ice before he was born. Eternal life is not living life as a God, procreating spirit children and peopling worlds that are created. I don't believe we have always existed. God created us. Did Heavenly Father institute his own laws for progression or did he just pass on the same laws that he obtained from his own Father so he could also advance to Godhood? You seem to be referring only to the sphere in which you reside. Unless you believe Heavenly Father of Earth is more higher than all the Gods before him, even exceeding his own Father or spirit brothers and sisters who went on to become Gods themselves. Can you clarify this? Are you only focusing on this sphere or all spheres in existence, where each sphere has its own set of Gods? I understand the gnolaum principle, but I don't believe these spirits are pre-existent in adult form, somehow born with the help of a heavenly mother. I believe the Godhead [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] always existed. They have always been God. There is only one Godhead. Nothing came into existence without Christ's involvement. I don't believe a spirit became a God and then gave birth to several other beings who would progress into becoming Gods and heavenly parents of our Earth. I wasn't there so I can't say if they had wings like birds or fins like fish that could assist when them leaping into the air and appear to be flying. I don't know. In your doctor analogy, it might mean receiving a diploma or title. I don't believe being made in God's image implies he has a head, two arms and legs, etc. Angels could be viewed as a different type of creation next to the seraphim and cherubim. The cherub above the ark of the covenant are depicted as having two wings each. Do you believe the seraphim have six literal wings? Here is some commentary to help explain what this means: https://www.christianity.com/wiki/god/what-does-it-mean-to-be-the-offspring-of-god.html "Prior to Paul telling the Athenians that we are God's offspring, he quotes from two ancient poets. The two quotes Paul proclaims to the Athenians come from Cretan philosopher Epimenides' quote, "For in him we live and move and have our being" (Acts 17:28a) and Cilician Stoic philosopher Aratus' quote of "We are his offspring" (Acts 17:28b). Paul was utilizing concepts that could be understood by the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers who were present at the Areopagus. This was an advanced means of contextualization during Paul's time as he presented the truth of God in a way that was understandable to the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers. In Acts, Paul was at the meeting of the Areopagus, and he was speaking to the people of Athens (Acts 17:22). While Paul is speaking to the Athenian philosophers, he says, "Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone — an image made by human design and skill" (Acts 17:29). In order to ascertain what Paul means when he says we are the offspring of God, we have to understand the broader context. Who Are the Offspring of God? During Paul's visit to the city of Athens, it was known to be a city full of false worship and idols (Acts 17:16). The people of Athens had not yet heard, understood, or accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul traveled to Athens to help present the truth of Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection to the Athenians. Acts 17 records one of Paul's discourses to the people of Athens. Prior to Paul telling the Athenians that we are God's offspring, he quotes from two ancient poets. The two quotes Paul proclaims to the Athenians come from Cretan philosopher Epimenides' quote, "For in him we live and move and have our being" (Acts 17:28a) and Cilician Stoic philosopher Aratus' quote of "We are his offspring" (Acts 17:28b). Paul was utilizing concepts that could be understood by the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers who were present at the Areopagus. This was an advanced means of contextualization during Paul's time as he presented the truth of God in a way that was understandable to the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers. In modern-day missiological studies, missionaries follow Paul's example of contextualization in order to help the lost come to know Jesus and other biblical truths. Paul utilized the modern-day Epicurean and Stoic philosophers' extensive knowledge of the ancient Epicurean and Stoic philosophers to connect them to the truth of the true God of the Bible. The Stoic philosophers believed that human beings are God's offspring; however, despite believing that humanity was God's offspring, the Stoics did not believe in the God of the Bible. When the Stoic philosopher Aratus wrote of "We are his offspring," Aratus was referring to the Greek God, Zeus — not the true God of the Bible (Ibid.). After Paul makes reference to Aratus' quote, he connects it with the true God of the Bible. Paul says, "Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone — an image made by human design and skill" (Acts 17:29). The Greek word Paul uses for "God" here comes from theios, "which means just a general deity that Paul has identified as the world's creator" (Ibid.). Paul is pointing out the truth that if the philosophers believed that human beings are the offspring of God, then how could human beings speak, move, and be able to have creativity if "God" was made out of stone (Ibid.). Stone idols cannot speak, move, or express creativity as mankind can. If human beings are the offspring of a stone idol "God," then would not human beings be stone as well? Since human beings are not stone creatures, then it would attest to God being a living, true God as stated in the Bible. This is the argument that Paul presents in order to facilitate the philosophers to think and ponder on the truth Paul was bringing to them. Philosophers during this time would literally sit around all day, think, and ponder on new ideas (Acts 17:21). By presenting this information to the philosophers, he wanted them to think over the information and deeply ponder these concepts in their own minds. An idol could not portray God's Image because God is not made out of a stone. Mankind is not created in the image of an idol, but rather, mankind is created in the Image of the One and Only Eternal God (Genesis 1:27). Paul was telling the philosophers that mankind is indeed the offspring of God because we are created by Him; however, mankind was not created by a mute idol in the center of Athens. To worship an idol was to sin against the true God of Heaven. Continuing on, Paul tells the philosophers that in the past, God chose to overlook this ignorance, but now, God commands all people across the world to repent and place faith in Jesus (Acts 17:30). Paul also informs the philosophers that in the future, there will be a resurrection and a judgment to befall all mankind (Acts 17:31). Some of the philosophers were interested in Paul's speaking about the resurrection of the dead and yearned to hear more; however, others sneered at Paul (Acts 17:32). There were some who listened to Paul's message and placed faith in Jesus, such as Dionysius, Damaris, and others (Acts 17:34). Neither the Epicureans nor Stoics philosophers believed in a literal resurrection of the dead, which ultimately meant they did not believe in a future judgment (Ibid.). The Epicureans did not believe in life after death as they believed once a person passed away, their soul "ceased to exist;" however, the Stoics believed their purpose in life was to live in agreement with the logos ("the law that governs the universe") in order to return to the logos when they died (Ibid.). Both the Epicureans and Stoics had erroneous beliefs surrounding God, life after death, and the need for salvation. Paul shares the truth of God with the philosophers; however, the New Testament never gives a record of Athens becoming home to a significant church during the writings of the New Testament (Ibid.). Athens was highly influenced by philosophies and false belief systems opposed to the true God of the Bible. Despite the town being highly shaped and molded by a pagan belief system, it is plausible many other philosophers and Athenians came to accept Paul's message of Jesus Christ in addition to Dionysius, Damaris, and others; however, we cannot be certain. Who Are the Children of God? Just as Paul tells the Epicureans and Stoics, "we are God's offspring" by quoting Cilician Stoic philosopher Aratus, we are told in the Bible, we are God's children (Romans 8:14). John 1:12-13 says, "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God — children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God." At the moment of salvation, we become God's children. Our broken relationship with the Creator of our souls is made right by placing faith in Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. We are God's offspring because we are made in His Image (Genesis 1:27). Being created in God's Image means we have the ability to speak, think, make decisions, move, be creative, and have free will. Every single person was created by God and each person is made in His beautiful image. God is our Father, and He wants us to run to Him". I don't believe we are born in the sexual case of literal reproduction between a heavenly mother and father who are believed to have physical bodies of flesh and bone. A child of God, by adoption, satisfies all the conditions of Romans 8:12-17. You can't pick some of the descriptions in those verses and omit the rest. These are the children of God: • They are led by the Spirit of God. • They receive the spirit of adoption • They are the children of God. • They are heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ. Right. The children by adoption receive the inheritance, as heirs. Those who live in the flesh and not after the Spirit are not adopted as children in God's family. They don't live with him in His kingdom. As I mentioned before, the heirs are the children of God, by adoption (Romans 8:12-17). There is a general sense of all being children of God (made in his image) and a more specific case (only those children by faith by adoption). The passage of Romans 8:12-17 only refers to those by faith who are adopted in God's family. They are the heirs. You can refer to them as spiritual Israel (made up of both Israelite and Gentile believers). Regarding the GotQuestions article: The seven churches described in Revelation 2-3 are seven literal churches at the time that John the apostle was writing Revelation. Though they were literal churches in Asia Minor at that time, there is also spiritual significance for churches and believers today. The first purpose of the letters was to communicate with the literal churches and meet their needs. The second purpose is to reveal seven different types of individuals/churches throughout history and instruct them in God's truth. I agree with the first purpose but not with all of the second purpose. Some churches today are not defined by the descriptions below: The church in Pergamos "But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. The church in Thyatira "Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols". Some of what is written to each church is repeated to the others. Some even believe the church of Philadelphia and Laodicea represent the last two churches in the final age leading to the return of Christ. Jesus provides a promise to the believers in Philadelphia, which can be extended to all believers: "Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down from out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name" (Revelation 3:12). A similar theme is written in the letter to the church of Thyatira: "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father". To Laodicea: "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne". And to Sardis: "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels". This theme of overcoming can be related to 2 Corinthians 6:16. "… for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people". One key description: "to those who overcome". Not overcoming means missing out on the blessings and promises that the Lord has prepared for those who are faithful and endure to the end. These are they who will reside with God in his kingdom. In LDS theology, many will not return to live with Heavenly Father. They had not overcome, endured to the end, or received eternal life. But getting back to Revelation 3:9 ("Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee"). You said "All of the promises that Jesus makes to the "seven churches" (the entire church) include the future promises to those who "overcome", which includes humans (who overcome) sitting with God in his throne in the same way Jesus sits on the throne with his God and Father". How do you believe women will be worshipped by those of the synagogue of Satan? Would those in the synagogue of Satan come to the highest division of the Celestial Kingdom so they could worship before the feet of the exalted beings? This passage is about the restoration of Israel to their homeland: literal Gentiles assisting literal Israelites. I don't believe this is their gathering into the church. But maybe Later-day Saints interpret this as referring to the gathering of Israel in the latter days, where people from all nations are invited to come unto Christ and be part of His covenant people. I think we can agree this has nothing to do with all Israelites being worshipped by those of the synagogue of Satan. I don't see the geography of the United States in Isaiah 60 or the future city of New Jerusalem which comes down from heaven. Do you? From what I understand of LDS theology, Heavenly Father (of Earth) is God over all the Earth and over all the worlds he has created. Similarly, all the Gods before Earth's Heavenly Father are Gods over their own creations. Each God has his own sphere of creations. Abraham 3:19 only pertains to Earth's Heavenly Father's sphere. Unless you believe Earth's Heavenly Father is more intelligent than his Father or all the other beings who obtained the title of "God" long before Earth's Heavenly Father did. How is Earth's Heavenly Father regarded as the head God of his Father God or of all his spirit brothers and sisters (of the same Father) who also became Gods either before or after him? Do you believe Earth's Heavenly Father was a Divine Being before he was born to his heavenly parents? Were Heavenly Mother and Father of Earth able to become Gods and establish their kingdom without the aid of their heavenly parents? When the LDS God the Father and God the Mother were once man and woman on some other world, were they already Gods in mortal bodies? You keep repeating yourself on this theme but I think it would help if you specifically qualify and limit this to the sphere of Earth's Heavenly Father. He is not a God over all the gods (spirit children) which pertain to the other spheres of His Father God or all his other Brother and Sisters who became Gods and their subsequent children. What can I say. Mormonism also split up into various sects, while not as many, with different interpretations too. David Whitmer would even go as far as writing "An address to all believers in Christ", documenting why he believed Joseph Smith as a false prophet. https://dn721800.ca.archive.org/0/items/addresstoallbeli00whit/addresstoallbeli00whit.pdf But from what I know, none of the Protestant sects teach we are literal children of heavenly parents, who became Gods some time in eternity past. I'm not sure if you consider the Doctrine and Covenants as being a closed-canon as nothing has been added since 1978. And as I said before, most of the D&C seems to deal with the time before the saints travelled to the Salt Lake Basin in 1847 Yes. This would constitute a form of apostasy. We find a little bit of apostasy in the letters to the seven churches too. We receive revelation through daily or weekly sermons but we don't feel a need to canonize them. We don't specifically identify certain individuals with an official title of Prophet or Apostle (uppercase) like we do for evangelists, pastors, and teachers (lowercase) even though they may act in similar functions.

There were several resurrections (a raising of the dead) before Christ's crucifixion and his eventual resurrection. But apart from Christ, I don't believe they were raised to immortality. So in that sense, I would consider the first resurrection as being a future event (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). 5 people being resurrected means five individual resurrections. They are not in the order of Christ's resurrection millennia ago (being the firstfruit). The faithful dead would come forth in their order; which would precede the order of the faithful living at the Second Coming. I am not sure if they all happen at the same time or whether milliseconds, seconds, minutes, or hours separate each individual resurrection for all the millions mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4. Another way to look at "order" is degrees of rewards, levels of blessedness, or orders of magnitude (like earthquakes are measured) instead of a priority of order. Maybe due to the wording, Doctrine and Covenants 88:96-97 gives the impression of a different order. According to the Bible, the dead in Christ are raised first, and then the living in Christ who are alive at the Second Coming are raised up next. In James 1:18, believers are described as a kind of "firstfruits" of God's creatures, indicating that they are among the first to experience the new life and transformation that comes through the gospel. They are not the "firstfruits" of a resurrection event. The idea of firstfruits not being associated with resurrection is alluded to again in Revelation 14:4, speaking of the 144,000 Israelites ("These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb"). I don't see the celestials as firstfruits and the terrestrials as secondfruits coming forth in the first resurrection or terrestrials and celestials (of the two lower divisions) matching the description set forth in Revelation 20:6. Regarding my comment "That's because not all the wicked living at the Second Coming of Christ are killed off". I should have clarified. I meant all the wicked that war against Christ at the Second Coming (the event specifically described in Revelation 19:19). But you are correct. All the wicked do eventually get destroyed somehow and sometime after the Second Coming. Let me briefly compare the disobedient whom God swept away in the flood with another group. I don't see a significant difference between those Israelites who were disobedient and perished in the wilderness exodus out of Egypt versus those corrupt Israelites who were also destroyed after entering the promised land. 1 Peter 3:19-20 says, "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water". In this context, who are these unsaved disobedient people in Noah's day to whom Jesus went and preached to in spirit prison? The severity of their sins resulted in the same outcome: they perished. Romans 2:14-15 highlights how Gentiles, even without the law, can act according to the principles of the law because it's written in their hearts. "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another". As for those blinded by the craftiness of men - they suffer the consequences too, but it is more severe on the false teachers who led them astray. Their outcome is the same: they are not saved. That's why it's dangerous for leaders and their followers to worship a different God. I don't believe they will have an opportunity to say we had the Bible but we didn't know God is God from eternity past to eternity future. I think there are varying degrees of suffering for those who don't inherit the kingdom of God.

It doesn't say "when" or that he "had" a fulness of joy. It's more that he "has" and still "has" a fulness of joy. At one point of their (Mother and Father's) existence, they did not have it and then they received it ("If we passed our tests, we would receive the fulness of joy that our heavenly parents have received"). Scripture does not indicate that some in the first resurrection do not rule as kings and priests. That's because not all the wicked living at the Second Coming of Christ are killed off. Peter is not referring to good people of Noah's time who died prior to the flood arriving. We also don't find any good people being killed off when the door to the Ark is closed and the waters being to rise. "Sometime were disobedient" does not mean "sometimes they were obedient, sometimes they were not". "Sometime" is qualifying the time frame when God waited and was longsuffering toward the wicked, giving more mercy and time in order to repent. You are splitting up Peter's message to refer to three groups; where group 1 is the 8 that were saved, group 2 is the good people who heard Noah's message, believed and died; and group 3 being the wicked people that perished. The use of the word "disobedient" has no bearing on the severity of one's sinfulness. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". The phrase "all have sinned" also has no bearing on the severity on one's sinfulness.

If I understand you correctly, and with the quotes from Gospel Principles, then Heavenly Mother and Father attained their fullness of joy when they became Gods in their exaltation. Based on Revelation 20:6, are the terrestrials (as you consider them part of the first resurrection) priests reigning with Christ for a thousand years? Yes. It was a worldwide flood. I don't know if all heard his message and rejected but it is recorded the entire world was corrupted and that's why God sent the flood (Genesis 6:5-7, 11-13). They are the wicked people Christ went and preached to according to 1 Peter 3:19-20.

Were those who inherited terrestrial glory previously in paradise or spirit prison? I see a difference between "might" receive and "will" receive. Do you believe all resurrected beings will receive a fulness of joy or is the fulness of joy found only within the framework of exaltation? But do you believe Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-16 describe what type of people were in paradise after they had died? I agree with you. Resurrection does not automatically and unconditionally come with a fulness of joy. From how I understand LDS theology, exaltation comes with a fulness of joy; which means the LDS Heavenly Father and Mother became Gods – they obtained their fulness of joy too. That is the ultimate purpose of progression as taught in the 1997 Gospel Principles. "If we passed our tests, we would receive the fulness of joy that our heavenly parents have received". "At the Grand Council we also learned the purpose for our progression: to have a fulness of joy. However, we also learned that not all of our Father's children would want to receive a fulness of joy. Some of us would be deceived, choose other paths, and lose our way". "We learned that if we placed our faith in him, obeying his word and following his example, we would be exalted and become like our heavenly parents. We would receive a fulness of joy". "We can be exalted as God is and receive a fulness of joy". "Blessings of Exaltation: They will become gods. They will receive a fulness of joy". What quotes which I provided from "Teachings of President of the Church: Joseph Smith" do you find false and deceptive? If the church deems the statement "The torment of the wicked is to know they have come short of the glory they might have enjoyed" and others as misleading or deceptive, why include it in the seminary manual? So what happens to devout and honorable individuals from other faiths (like Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims) who knowingly reject Christ either during their mortal life or (according to some beliefs) even after being taught the gospel in the spirit world? Will they remain in spirit prison until the resurrection with others who will instead inherit a telestial glory? Where do you find in scripture that the first resurrection is split into a morning (for those who become gods/priests/kings in the highest division of the celestial kingdom and two other groups for the two lower sections) and an afternoon (for the terrestrials)? Based on Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-15, are the people of 76:73-77 initially in paradise or in spirit prison with the wicked after they died? And when did Jesus visit and preach to them?

"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water". My point is that these spirits in prison, whom Jesus visited and preached to, were the wicked of Noah's day. This is shown in Genesis 6:5-7, and repeated in verses 11-13. "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them". "The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth". Why is the reference to the spirits being in chains of hell given about the saints in paradise instead of the others (the non-saints) in spirit prison? From what I have seen of LDS teachings, D&C 138 is used as the basis for a spirit paradise and a spirit prison in the all-encompassing spirit world. I don't see section 138 as a state of being but rather as places of gathering where the saints are separated from the non-saints. Similarly, the rich man is not in the same place as Lazarus in the parable of Luke 16. Do you see D&C 138 describing a state of being or two general places of gathering for the people who have died? The words "where" in verses 5 and 22 imply locations to me. Verse 12 gives specific information about one of those locations and the people therein.

I assume you don't believe all the other church teachings of the spirit world consisting of paradise and spirit prison. Here are some references I provided to oghossier. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/paradise?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bd/paradise?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2016/06/what-do-we-know-about-life-after-death?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world-study-guide?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-38?lang=eng I also provided church sources outside of sections 93 and 138 but maybe you don't believe those teachings are true. Those initially identified as being in paradise (D&C 138:12-15) do not reflect the attributes of the people identified in Doctrine and Covenants 76:74-75 and 138:20-22. Maybe you believe those in spirit prison can travel to paradise. Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-16. From my understanding, only resurrected beings who attain to the highest division of the Celestial Kingdom will have a fulness of joy. One of the several church teachings I provided previously was Gospel Principles – "We can be exalted as God is and receive a fulness of joy". Based on the footnotes provided in Teachings of Joseph Smith, I thought I had it right. But if Joseph Smith is not the source, is the real source teaching the truth or deceiving people? Here's how it appears on page 224: The torment of the wicked is to know they have come short of the glory they might have enjoyed. "God has decreed that all who will not obey His voice shall not escape the damnation of hell. What is the damnation of hell? To go with that society who have not obeyed His commands. . . . I know that all men will be damned if they do not come in the way which He hath opened, and this is the way marked out by the word of the Lord."12 "The great misery of departed spirits in the world of spirits,where they go after death, is to know that they come short of the glory that others enjoy and that they might have enjoyed themselves, and they are their own accusers."13 "There is no pain so awful as that of suspense. This is the punishment of the wicked; their doubt, anxiety and suspense cause weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth."14 "A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone [see Revelation 21:8]. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone. I say, so is the torment of man. . . . ". . . Some shall rise to the everlasting burnings of God, for God dwells in everlasting burnings, and some shall rise to the damnation of their own filthiness, which is as exquisite a torment as the lake of fire and brimstone."15 [12.] History of the Church, 4:554–55; paragraph divisions altered; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on Mar. 20, 1842, in Nauvoo, Illinois; reported by Wilford Woodruff; see also appendix, page 562, item 3. [13.] History of the Church, 5:425; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on June 11, 1843, in Nauvoo, Illinois; reported by Wilford Woodruff and Willard Richards; see also appendix, page 562, item 3. [14.] History of the Church, 5:340; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on Apr. 8, 1843, in Nauvoo, Illinois; reported by Willard Richards and William Clayton. [15.] History of the Church, 6:314, 317; punctuation modernized; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on Apr. 7, 1844, in Nauvoo, Illinois; reported by Wilford Woodruff, Willard Richards, Thomas Bullock, and William Clayton. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/36481_eng.pdf Doctrine and Covenants 138:20-22 says, "But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised; Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face. Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace". Does this only apply to telestials? Were there any honorable people who were ungodly, unrepentant, rebellious, or who rejected the testimonies and warnings of the ancient prophets? "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Revelation 20:6).

Who specifically (time frame) are the spirits of the dead referred to in 1 Peter 3:18-20? Were they ever in death and the chains of hell in need of redemption so they could be delivered from both situations? Do you accept the church's teaching that the spirit world is made of paradise and spirit prison? Verses 20-22 say, "But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised; Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face. Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace". Where initially are the honorable men who were deceived by the craftiness of men? In darkness or in peace? The church teaches it was the entire world. "Noah lived at a time when people thought and did evil continually, and God called him to be a preacher of righteousness to that wicked generation. When the people rejected his message, God commanded Noah to build an ark, gather animals, and prepare for a flood. Noah and his sons—Shem, Ham, and Japheth—and their wives were the only people on the whole earth saved from the flood". https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/noah?lang=eng What about the honorable Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims who heard the gospel and rejected the gospel before they died? Does God view them as wicked or righteous?

Since they (the pre-mortal spirit children) are not resurrected beings, how are they the spirits of just men made perfect? How are those spirit children waiting to enter mortality considered "made perfect"? I don't see him in heaven according to Doctrine and Covenants 138:57. "I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead". Maybe the song "Praise to the Man" is an exception.

Are these instructions (the 3 grand keys of D&C 129:4-9) true or false?

Did Heavenly Father create any angels that are not regarded as his spirit children?

The LDS Church includes the word "paradise" in the Introduction notes of section 138 and teaches that the spirit world includes two parts: spirit prison and spirit paradise. See my larger reply to oghossier. Of the terrestrials who Jesus is mentioned as visiting, it says, "These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men". Suppose you have Hindus, Buddhists, or Muslims who have lived good and honorable lives in the eyes of man. They allowed themselves to be blinded by the craftiness of men, rejected the Atonement of Christ, and even worshipped idols made of stone and wood. Does God view them as wicked and in darkness? I'm familiar with 93:33-34. My references to achieving the fulness of joy were describing the exalted beings, those who met certain conditions. Here are some examples: "The commandment to multiply and replenish the earth has never been rescinded. It is essential to the plan of redemption and is the source of human happiness. Through the righteous exercise of this power, we may come close to our Father in Heaven and experience a fulness of joy, even godhood. The power of procreation is not an incidental part of the plan; it is the plan of happiness; it is the key to happiness" (The Plan of Happiness, Boyd K. Packer, President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general–conference/2015/04/the–plan–of–happiness?lang=eng "A fullness of joy is found only within the framework of an exalted family. Some people may scoff at the seventh commandment, which requires chastity before marriage and fidelity afterward, but "political correctness" is not a substitute for the plan of happiness" (The Eternal Family, Merrill J. Bateman, President of Brigham Young University, January 6, 1998) https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/merrill-j-bateman/eternal-family "God wants you to find and keep joy in this world and in the world to come. You have been specially endowed with a celestial nature that is to grow into a fullness of joy" (A Joyful Heart, Dale E. Miller, June 8, 2004). https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/dale-e-miller/joyful-heart/ "How, then, does a man imitate God, follow his steps, and walk as he walked, which we are commanded to do? We must study the life of Christ, learn his commandments, and do them. God has promised that to follow this course will lead a man to an abundant life and a fullness of joy and the peace and rest which those who are heavy-burdened long for" (Listen to a Prophet's Voice, Elder Ezra Taft Benson, Of the Council of the Twelve) https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1973/01/listen-to-a-prophets-voice?lang=eng "You are the stage manager—you are the one who decides which thought will occupy the stage. Remember, the Lord wants you to have a fullness of joy like His" (Think on Christ, President Ezra Taft Benson). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1984/04/think-on-christ?lang=eng https://speeches.byu.edu/wp-content/uploads/pdf/Benson_Ezra_1983_10.pdf "Neither is it enough to be a good, solid citizen, contributing to charities, serving on community boards, and in general living a good Christian life. Although commendable, this is not sufficient to entitle one to the fulness of joy and the eternal life that our Father in heaven has promised to those who love him and keep his commandments" (Just for Today, President N. Eldon Tanner, First Counselor in the First Presidency). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/1975/01/just-for-today?lang=eng "If we passed our tests, we would receive the fulness of joy that our heavenly parents have received" "At the Grand Council we also learned the purpose for our progression: to have a fulness of joy. However, we also learned that not all of our Father's children would want to receive a fulness of joy. Some of us would be deceived, choose other paths, and lose our way" "We learned that if we placed our faith in him, obeying his word and following his example, we would be exalted and become like our heavenly parents. We would receive a fulness of joy". "We can be exalted as God is and receive a fulness of joy". "Blessings of Exaltation: They will become gods. They will receive a fulness of joy". (Gospel Principles, 1997). There are even parts in the Book of Mormon where living mortals possessed a fulness of joy. "And now, behold, my joy is great, even unto fulness, because of you, and also this generation; yea, and even the Father rejoiceth, and also all the holy angels, because of you and this generation; for none of them are lost. Behold, I would that ye should understand; for I mean them who are now alive of this generation; and none of them are lost; and in them I have fulness of joy" (3 Nephi 27:30-31). "And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one" (3 Nephi 28:10). This passage is for those in paradise, not spirit prison. The terrestrials and telestials do not satisfy the conditions of 138:12-15. I see it adding some clarity to Doctrine and Covenants 93:33–34, which you mentioned earlier. Regarding the passage you mentioned earlier: "For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy." This, I take, is your reference to resurrection causing someone to have a fulness of joy. There are only two states: a resurrection and no resurrection. There is no idea of a lesser or greater degree of fulness. An empty glass is not a fulness. A partially-full glass is not a fulness. You made me think about something. 1] Spirits are eternal and uncreated according to the Pearl of Great Price. 2] Spirits have spirit bodies. 3] Spirit bodies are made of pure matter (eternal elements). 4] These spirits are united with their spirit bodies. But they are not resurrected. If you believe the terrestrials and telestials will have a lesser "fulness of joy", you need to consider Joseph Smith's teaching that they will suffer immeasurable torment in their mind. "The torment of the wicked is to know they have come short of the glory they might have enjoyed". "A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone [see Revelation 21:8]. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone. I say, so is the torment of man". "Some shall rise to the everlasting burnings of God, for God dwells in everlasting burnings, and some shall rise to the damnation of their own filthiness, which is as exquisite a torment as the lake of fire and brimstone". Don't you consider the terrestrials (honorable people who were blinded by the craftiness of men and knowingly rejected the Atonement of Christ in mortality) as wicked and being in darkness? You mean they will be resurrected at the Second Coming?

1 Peter 3 does not say that Christ commissioned righteous spirits in paradise to eventually go into spirit prison to preach to the wicked there. It says Christ went and preached himself. "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water". People alter the words and meaning if they believe that "Jesus went and preached" means "Jesus didn't personally go and preach". Here's a teaching of James Talmage from "Jesus the Christ" which reflects this personal visit of Christ to the wicked. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/jesus-the-christ/chapter-36?lang=eng While divested of His body Christ ministered among the departed, both in paradise and in the prison realm where dwelt in a state of durance the spirits of the disobedient. To this effect testified Peter nearly three decades after the great event: "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."f The disobedient who had lived on earth in the Noachian period are especially mentioned as beneficiaries of the Lord's ministry in the spirit world. They had been guilty of gross offenses, and had wantonly rejected the teachings and admonitions of Noah, the earthly minister of Jehovah. For their flagrant sin they had been destroyed in the flesh, and their spirits had endured in a condition of imprisonment, without hope, from the time of their death to the advent of Christ, who came as a Spirit amongst them. Here's a teaching from George Q. Cannon which indicates the same. The spirits of the damned—those who have committed abominable crimes—will have this doctrine preached to them, and they will be kept in torment until they repent of their sins. The labors of the men who have received the Priesthood in this life will be continued in the life to come, in this glorious work of carrying the glad tidings of salvation to those who sit in darkness because of their sins—who may be in the condition of the antediluvian, whom the Lord consigned to prison after destroying them with a flood because they rejected the testimony of Noah and those associated with him. The Lord had promised His servants, however, that these people should be visited after they had atoned to some extent for their violation of His laws; and this was the glorious mission of our Lord and Savior Jesus while His body lay in the sepulchre. He went into the spirit world and visited these spirits in prison, unlocked the doors of their prisons and started again the work of preaching salvation to them to see whether, after having endured the wrath of God from the time when they were overwhelmed with the flood until then, they would receive the Gospel of salvation and repent of their sins. That is the labor that we have upon us as a people, both here and hereafter. (Millennial Star. 1899-02-23: Volume 61, Issue 8, pages 115-116) https://ia600403.us.archive.org/13/items/per_utah-and-the-mormons_the-latter-day-saints-millennial-star_1899-02-23_61_8/per_utah-and-the-mormons_the-latter-day-saints-millennial-star_1899-02-23_61_8.pdf D&C 138:14 says Jesus visited those in peace (who died with a testimony of him in mortality) while D&C 76:74-75 says Jesus also visited those who did not have a testimony of him in mortality. That is confirmed in a 2019 General Conference talk. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2019/10/17oaks?lang=eng "The wicked also suffer an additional bondage. Because of unrepented sins, they are in what the Apostle Peter referred to as spirit "prison" (1 Peter 3:19; see also Doctrine and Covenants 138:42). These spirits are described as "bound" or as "captives" (Doctrine and Covenants 138:31, 42) or as "cast out into outer darkness" with "weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth" as they await resurrection and judgment (Alma 40:13–14)". It is also confirmed in this teaching by Joseph F. Smith. https://rsc.byu.edu/joseph-f-smith-reflections-man-his-times/development-understanding-postmortal-spirit-world "The separation of the just and the unjust described in Alma 40 of the Book of Mormon suggests that there is a separation between the righteous and the unrighteous in the spirit world. In addition to the writings of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith further taught, "Jesus Christ became a ministering spirit (while His body was lying in the sepulchre) to the spirits in prison, to fulfill an important part of His mission." [2] Joseph also taught, "Peter, also, in speaking concerning our Savior, says that, ‘He went and preached unto the spirits in prison, which sometimes were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah,' (1 Peter 3:19, 20). Here then we have an account of our Savior preaching to the spirits in prison, to spirits that had been imprisoned from the days of Noah". These were the wicked people who had rejected the message in the days of Noah. Here are several teachings of the LDS Church regarding paradise, the spirit world, and spirit prison. In short, the righteous are in paradise, the wicked are in spirit prison, and Christ went and preached to those in prison. Paradise: That part of the spirit world in which the righteous spirits who have departed from this life await the resurrection of the body. It is a condition of happiness and peace. The spirits of the righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, Alma 40:11–12. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/paradise?lang=eng Paradise is that part of the spirit world in which the righteous spirits who have departed from this life await the resurrection of the body. It is a condition of happiness and peace. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bd/paradise?lang=eng The postmortal spirit world is a place where the spirits of those who have died live before the Resurrection. The spirit world consists of paradise, where the righteous dwell, and spirit prison, where those who were wicked in mortality dwell. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world?lang=eng "The spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow. "Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection" (Alma 40:12–14). The spirits are classified according to the purity of their lives and their obedience to the will of the Lord while on earth. The righteous and the wicked are separated (see 1 Nephi 15:28–30), but the spirits may progress as they learn gospel principles and live in accordance with them. The spirits in paradise can teach the spirits in prison (see D&C 138). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng There are two major states or divisions among the spirits in the spirit world: paradise and spirit prison. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2016/06/what-do-we-know-about-life-after-death?lang=eng After death, our spirit bodies go to the spirit world. There, the spirits of the righteous "are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow" (Alma 40:12). "Those who … died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets," are spirits in prison (Doctrine and Covenants 138:32; see also 1 Peter 3:18–20). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world-study-guide?lang=eng Jesus was the first man that ever went to preach to the spirits in prison, holding the keys of the Gospel of salvation to them. Those keys were delivered to him in the day and hour that he went into the spirit world, and with them he opened the door of salvation to the spirits in prison (DBY, 378). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-38?lang=eng Out of all the spirits in the spirit world, only those in paradise are referred to as being in the chains of hell (D&C 138:23). What are the chains of hell? The Book of Mormon explains it this way: "And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell" (Alma 12:11). The same thing happens for Christ's reference to paradise when he addressed one of the thieves on the cross. "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). The church teaches this is a mistranslation, like other mistranslations Joseph Smith believed in. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/paradise?lang=eng A second use of the word paradise is found in Luke's account of the Savior's Crucifixion. When Jesus was on the cross, a thief who also was being crucified said, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." The Lord replied, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." The Prophet Joseph Smith explained that this is a mistranslation; the Lord actually said that the thief would be with Him in the world of spirits". Since Jesus is with the thief, they are either both in paradise or in the LDS spirit prison. A similar Greek use of paradise in Luke 23:43 is found in Revelation 2:7 and 2 Corinthians 12:4. I don't have all the details about Luke 23:43, but I'll take Christ as his word – he and the thief being in paradise. Same for Peter. Christ went and preached to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:19-20). Some believe this is a reference to Christ preaching to the wicked spirits in the years before the flood through Noah's life instead of Christ visiting the wicked spirits between his death and resurrection. According to how the LDS Church defines the spirit world, spirit prison is one subset and paradise is the other. You can change the context and modify it to "Jesus did not go" but that would not agree with what Peter taught. Joseph Smith updating certain parts of the Bible has led to different meanings from the original. Jehovah's Witnesses do the same with their New World Translation. Jesus even becomes Michael the Archangel. Joseph Smith also added new sections to the Old Testament and made a few tweaks to the New Testament. 1,260 days becoming 1,260 years in Revelation 12 is just one example. I agree with you in that the word "paradise" is not in D&C 138:12-14 but that hasn't stopped the LDS Church from making the connection. I've addressed this already. The connection is clearer when you read Alma 40:12,14. "And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow. Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection". The state of being is not the same as a location. But if you want to apply your logic, then the terrestrial, telestial, and celestial kingdom inhabitants are all in the same place; a key difference being their mental state. You have joy and misery coexisting in God's presence. And the righteous spirits are coexisting in the same place as the wicked. Speaking of misery, Joseph Smith taught : "The torment of the wicked is to know they have come short of the glory they might have enjoyed". https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-18?lang=eng The phrase "Jesus went" implies him going to a place, not entering a state of being (emotionally). Even Luke 16 (the parable of the rich man and Lazarus) denotes two places, where people from one section cannot traverse the other. But if you want to equate this with a state of being, then the rich man is not in hell and Lazarus in not in Abraham's bosom. That would put them in the same place, only existing with different emotional states. This would mess up the meaning of the great gulf separating the two and people not being able to traverse the gulf. Gospel Principles updates this teaching in stating that the wicked in spirit prison can go to paradise. I believe paradise is a place that the righteous spirits go to. They do not remain single, all by themselves, in a state of peace and happiness in their grave. Imagine Jesus speaking to the good and wicked people gathered together on a hillside by the Sea of Galilee during the Sermon on the Mount. Now picture someone claiming that Jesus went up to the Mount but the wicked did not hear his preaching. LDS Church teachings also regard them as different places, not a state of being in the same place: "The postmortal spirit world is a place where the spirits of those who have died live before the Resurrection. The spirit world consists of paradise, where the righteous dwell, and spirit prison, where those who were wicked in mortality dwell. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise". https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world?lang=eng The only reference to paradise in Doctrine and Covenants 138 is in the introduction notes. 1–10, President Joseph F. Smith ponders upon the writings of Peter and our Lord's visit to the spirit world; 11–24, President Smith sees the righteous dead assembled in paradise and Christ's ministry among them; The other teachings of spirit paradise and spirit prison and who goes where are found in other teachings. I mentioned some above. Do you find the unjust gathered in the same place as the just in Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-14? Does darkness also reign in paradise (138:22)? Those in the first resurrection are kings and priests (Revelation 1:6; 20:6). Doctrine and Covenants 76 identifies them as gods, members of the Church of the Firstborn. Do you believe terrestrial and telestials are in the first resurrection? I didn't have anything extra to add here other than to refer you to what the LDS Church identifies as the spirit world being a place called paradise and another place called spirit prison. If those teachings are in error, then it is what it is. I make that assertion based on Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-14. Maybe you're basing your statement on the belief that the wicked in spirit prison can repent, accept the ordinances of the gospel, and then travel to paradise. Doctrine and Covenants 138:28 says, "And I wondered at the words of Peter—wherein he said [Peter said went and preached] that the Son of God preached [the word "went" is omitted] unto the spirits in prison, who sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah—and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time". Do you believe this refers to the wicked humans who were killed in the global flood, wherein only 8 were saved? Speaking of those in paradise, Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-14 says, "And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality; And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer's name. All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ". ALL does not initially include the wicked who rejected the prophets in mortality (D&C 138:20-21). The "wicked" are not gathered together in the same subnet of the spirit world with the "righteous". While the LDS Church teaches those in spirit prison can eventually travel to paradise under certain conditions, it is not explicitly taught in scripture. "If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise" (Gospel Principles, chapter 41). Doctrine and Covenants 138 only shows the righteous (in paradise) being commissioned to go forth to preach the gospel to the lost (to those in spirit prison). But Doctrine and Covenants 76:73 -75 has Jesus visiting the terrestrial inhabitants – "And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh; Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men". This seems to mark a time before their conversion and acceptance of the saving ordinances performed in the LDS Church. Some of these honorable people were the wicked Hindus and Buddhists, who while living devout and noble lives, still followed their false leaders instead of believing Christian evangelists. As we noted earlier, those who received a testimony of Jesus in the flesh, and who had died, were in paradise. The terrestrials are identified as "honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men". I would classify some of these as devout or nice people who heard about but rejected the gospel of Christ in mortality and listened to false teachers instead. In God's eyes, they are the wicked; the condemned. Let's call them "group 1". Another group of people could be classified as honorable – those who were devout in their religious or atheist/agnostic beliefs, were nice people, but never heard the gospel. They too were blinded somehow by the craftiness of men. They are wicked too. Let's call them "group 2". I believe the following verses in the gospel according to John would be more applicable to terrestrial group 1: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil". Do the terrestrials have the "paradise" qualifications of Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-15? No. Did Christ visit those whose deeds were evil in God's eyes and had died? According to Doctrine and Covenants 76:73, I would say yes. Based on what I provided about the LDS Church teachings, paradise and spirit prison are subsets of the spirit world. The introduction notes of Alma 40 says: "Christ brings to pass the resurrection of all men—The righteous dead go to paradise and the wicked to outer darkness to await the day of their resurrection". Alma 34:32-35 describes this further. I see that Doctrine and Covenants 137 is a picture of those who are taught to have achieved their exaltation in the celestial kingdom of God. In another place it's called the celestial kingdom of heaven. The word "heirs" of the celestial kingdom of God in verse 7 is linked to D&C 76:50-70 (TG Exaltation). These are the gods/priests/kings of the Church of the Firstborn. They come forth in the first resurrection.

Sounds like there are 3 kinds of beings in heaven, each divided into different sectors. Maybe they are separated from each other, only allowing the Godhead to interact with your third type (pre-mortal spirits awaiting birth).

The terrestrials are not in paradise according to the descriptions given in Doctrine and Covenants 138. 12 And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality; 13 And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer's name. 14 All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Receiving the fulness of joy is reserved for those who are formed into Gods. 17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy. They had been faithful. They were not honorable men who were blinded by the craftiness of men (as shown in 76:75). 18 While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful; Jesus is said to have preached to those in paradise. 19 And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance. The next verse says he didn't go to the wicked. 20 But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised; But when we go to Doctrine and Covenants 138:73-76, it's clear that Jesus visited the wicked "honorable" people [the terrestrials] and preached to them. Paradise was only for those who died with a testimony of Christ before they had died. Paradise is for the vast assembly of the righteous (verse 38). 73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh; 74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. 75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men. 76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness. The terrestrials, unlike those in paradise, do not receive of God's fulness. They are not in the resurrection of the just. This is reserved for those who are formed into Gods (Doctrine and Covenants 76:54-65). The Apostle Paul frequently wrote about the Second Coming of Jesus, but he didn't explicitly state that Jesus would return during his own lifetime. Some interpretations of Paul's writings, like 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, suggest to some that he anticipated this event soon. Paul's language in verse 15, "we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," suggests to some that he expected Jesus' return to happen soon, possibly within his lifetime. However, interpretations vary, and this reflects the hope and anticipation of early Christians rather than a definitive prophecy about the timing of the Second Coming. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord" (1 Thess 4:15-17). These verses apply to those that will actually live to see the Second Coming. The apostasy and that man of sin who fulfills the following has not occurred in the past. 2 Thess 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2 Thess 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. And he will deceive people with power and signs and wonders. 2 Thess 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2 Thess 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2 Thess 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2 Thess 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. These events have not occurred yet. We find something similar in the 1832 revelation that Joseph Smith is said to have received. "Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house" (Doctrine and Covenants 84:4-5). This is believed to be a future fulfillment. From the seminary manual. Building of the New Jerusalem Near the time of the coming of Jesus Christ, the faithful Saints will build a righteous city, a city of God, called the New Jerusalem. Jesus Christ Himself will rule there. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-43-signs-of-the-second-coming?lang=eng I'll add the second paragraph for context. First paragraph The spirits of the damned—those who have committed abominable crimes—will have this doctrine preached to them, and they will be kept in torment until they repent of their sins. The labors of the men who have received the Priesthood in this life will be continued in the life to come, in this glorious work of carrying the glad tidings of salvation to those who sit in darkness because of their sins—who may be in the condition of the antediluvian, whom the Lord consigned to prison after destroying them with a flood because they rejected the testimony of Noah and those associated with him. Second paragraph The Lord had promised His servants, however, that these people [the spirits of the damned; the wicked in Noah's day] should be visited after they had atoned to some extent for their violation of His laws; and this was the glorious mission of our Lord and Savior Jesus while His body lay in the sepulchre. He went into the spirit world and visited these spirits [the spirits of the damned; the wicked who rejected Noah's message] in prison, unlocked the doors of their prisons and started again the work of preaching salvation to them to see whether, after having endured the wrath of God from the time when they were overwhelmed with the flood [the wicked in Noah's day] until then, they would receive the Gospel of salvation and repent of their sins. That is the labor that we have upon us as a people, both here and hereafter. (Millennial Star. 1899-02-23: Volume 61, Issue 8, pages 115-116) These people form the context of 1 Peter 3:18-20. "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water". The Religion 211-212 seminary manual has a brief explanation of this. 1 Peter 3:18–20; 4:6. Jesus Christ Preached to the Spirits in Prison While the Gospels do not mention details about Jesus Christ's experiences between the time of His Crucifixion and His Resurrection, Peter provided the insight that Jesus "went and preached unto the spirits in prison; some of whom were disobedient in the days of Noah, while the long- suffering of God waited" (Joseph Smith Translation, 1 Peter 3:19–20 [in 1 Peter 3:19–20, footnote 20a]). The wicked in Noah's day were subsequently excluded from Christ visiting and preaching to them by a supposed revelation. "Some of them [some of the wicked]" became "none of them [none of the wicked]". President Joseph F. Smith (1838–1918) was pondering the meaning of 1 Peter 3:18–20; 4:6 when he received a vision, now recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 138. In this vision he learned that following the Savior's death, the Lord ministered in the spirit world, preparing the way for the gospel to be preached to the spirits of the wicked. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/new-testament-student-manual/1-peter-and-2-peter/chapter-51-1-peter-and-2-peter?lang=eng That is why I don't believe the vision given to Joseph F. Smith. It lacks understanding of what Peter said. It's worth noting that the Book of Mormon doesn't address this [what Jesus did between his death and resurrection] either. It must appeal to the Bible. There are devout Buddhists, Sikhs, and Hindus who have knowingly rejected the Atonement of Christ, and in the case of Hindus offered plant and animal sacrifices to their pagan gods. These groups (even though viewed as honorable in the sense that they were morally good in the eyes of man – did not kill, did not steal, helped the needy, etc) are wicked in the sight of God. They believed and followed the false doctrines of their leaders instead. They could not be in paradise with the righteous saints. Alma 40:11-14 gives a good description of their state between death and resurrection. "Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life. And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow. And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house— and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil. Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection". These wicked are the terrestrials mentioned in Doctrine and Covenants 76:71-80 (" ... whom the Son visited and preached the gospel unto them ...", verse 73). They did not have a testimony of Jesus in the flesh (verse 74). Those in paradise had a testimony of Jesus in the flesh (138:12). I might have misunderstood what you said previously. Doctrine and Covenants 76:50 discusses the "resurrection of the just," which is associated with those who receive celestial glory. They are classified as gods (priests and kingdoms); members of the Church of the Firstborn (76:51-70). This resurrection is for those who have embraced the gospel, been perfected through Jesus Christ, and have kept the commandments. They received the testimony of Jesus, were baptized, and were faithful to the covenants made with God. The terrestrials are not in the resurrection of the just. They are harmed by the second death (Revelation 20:6). They do not become gods, priests, and kings. Doctrine and Covenants 138:38, 49-52 also indicates the vast assembly of the righteous coming forth after Christ's resurrection "to enter into his Father's kingdom, there to be crowned with immortality and eternal life". I can't find any scripture or example that supports the idea of either a wicked or an honorable person (perhaps someone like a devout and moral Hindu who rejects Christ's atonement and worships idols?) being sent the darkness and misery of spirit prison, only to later become a God or entering one of the other divisions of the Celestial Kingdom.

What about those spirits in heaven, after the resurrection of Christ that you say, that have not yet come to Earth or other worlds in mortal bodies? What kind of beings are they if they are not angels (resurrected personages) or "the spirits of just men made perfect"?

That's what Doctrine and Covenants 129:1,3 says. "There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones— ... Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory". Back on 01/16/2025, you said, D&C 129: 1 - 3 refers to the beings in heaven after Jesus' resurrection (angels and spirits), and Revelation 12 refers to the premortal war in heaven amongst the spirits then present. Which is it?

The original reply from @InCognitus is found here. I branched into a new thread in hopes of making it easier to follow. There are two gatherings spoken of in the scriptures. One is of a spiritual nature – where Israelites were joined to the church of Christ in the ministry of Christ and subsequent evangelism to them and the Gentiles who would join the body of Christ. The other is a physical gathering of the Israelites to their land of inheritance in Israel, not America. I don’t believe all the members of the early church were only from the tribe of Judah and Benjamin. The idea that there were no Israelites from the other ten tribes who had not migrated from the north to the south prior to the Assyrian captivity is an urban legend. It is also an urban legend that there were no people of the ten tribes who went into Babylonian captivity who never returned to Israel after 70 years. I found this web site that has some ideas of the tribes that the 12 apostles came from. https://www.abrahamsdescendants.com/uploads/8/1/0/5/8105580/1270.910.pdf I saw some commentary by John Darby. I’ll quote some of what he said. Consequently we have, in chapters 11, 12, the Messiah and His reign, the source of the millennial blessing of the people of God. The first verses of chapter 11 (1-5) give his character; afterwards it is the effect of His reign. The heading in the ESV of the Bible has for Isaiah 11 “The Righteous Reign of the Branch”. From my reading of Doctrine and Covenants 113, it tries to identify the rod and the root but is not quite clear who these people are. Who do you believe they represent? Verses 3-4 – “What is the rod spoken of in the first verse of the 11th chapter of Isaiah, that should come of the Stem of Jesse? Behold, thus saith the Lord: It is a servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim, or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power. Verses 5-6 – “What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter? Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days”. I don’t know the way that Christ will continue to bring the Israelites back to their own land of Israel in the future in the way Isaiah 11 describes, but we saw a glimpse of this in the events that led to the founding of the nation of Israel in 1948. I don’t believe in the theory of British-Israelism or that one or more tribes will inherit the land of America (or specifically the United States) in the future. By spiritual Israel, I mean those who become members of the church of Christ (whether they are literal Israelites or Gentiles). When I read page 57 of the Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, it appears the literal blood of a Gentile changes into the literal blood that coursed in Abraham's veins. “... while the effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile, is to purge out the old blood, and make him actually of the seed of Abraham. That man that has none of the blood of Abraham (naturally) must have a new creation by the Holy Ghost". The New Era article in 2005 (“Your Patriarchal Blessing”) speaks more of this literal blood issue. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2005/11/your-patriarchal-blessing?lang=eng Thank you for that lineage chart of Abraham where you highlight the sceptre promises of Judah and the birthright promises of Ephraim plus Manasseh (or maybe you just meant Ephraim). The firstborn in Israel’s family was transferred from Reuben to Joseph. I would say the birthright (the right of the first born) passed to Manasseh since he was born first but Jacob gave precedent on Ephraim over him. But each family of all the subsequent sons of Jacob had their own first born in their respective families that had the birthright. But let’s focus on Ephraim for a moment. Numbers 26 lists three sons of his sons. 1 Chronicles lists eight sons (if I count right). Which of Ephraim’s eight sons had the birthright blessing (the blessing given to the first born)? I would say Jacob’s immediate family, not the families that would come from all the other 11 tribes. See my comment above. Going back to the diagram you provided about the lineage of Abraham. You highlighted the sceptre promises of Judah and the birthright promises of Ephraim. The sceptre promises of Judah as King of Israel did not apply to all individuals in Judah’s lineage. It was only to one reigning king, in whom Christ is the ultimate fulfillment as the King of Israel. Seeing that Ephraim did not hold the priesthood in the Old Testament and in the New Testament church, on what basis do you assume that Jacob passed onto him any priesthood role in the birthright blessing? This is an approximate map of the land inheritance allotted to the twelve tribes. Ephraim is not given a greater land inheritance. Even Manasseh exceeds that tribe. What exactly do you believe is the land inheritance of Ephraim and Manasseh and what in scripture indicates this greater land inheritance blessing that you mention? I am aware of several teachings in the church’s seminary manual about the unique role of Ephraim and the blessings. Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual I’ll quote a few of them for reference. I don’t think I have a question about it but I just observe that it does not mention a gathering of Gentiles. It focuses primarily on the gathering of Israel. On page 58: “The great majority of those who become members of the Church are literal descendants of Abraham through Ephraim, son of Joseph. Those who are not literal descendants of Abraham and Israel must become such, and when they are baptized and confirmed they are grafted into the tree and are entitled to all the rights and privileges as heirs” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3:245–46)”. On page 64: B1. The gathering of scattered Israel is a result both of God’s mercy and also of Israel’s repentance (see Isaiah 54:7; Ezekiel 11:17; Jeremiah 50:4–5; 2 Nephi 10:7; 30:7). B3. The raising of an ensign to the nations is the signal for Israel to be gathered home in the latter days (see Isaiah 5:26; 11:12). B6. Of the twelve tribes, the tribes of Joseph’s sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, will be gathered first and then direct the other tribes in their gathering (see JST, Genesis 48:5–11; Deuteronomy 33:16–17; D&C 133:30–39). On page 65: As complete as was the scattering, so shall be the gathering of Israel” (Talmage, Articles of Faith, 328–29). On page 66: ‘We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; “Now, the gathering of Israel consists of joining the true church and their coming to a knowledge of the true God. “By and by the Jews will be gathered to the land of their fathers, and the ten tribes, who wandered into the north, will be gathered home. “It is essential in this dispensation that Ephraim stand in his place at the head, exercising the birthright in Israel which was given to him by direct revelation. Therefore, Ephraim must be gathered first to prepare the way, through the gospel and the priesthood, for the rest of the tribes of Israel when the time comes for them to be gathered to Zion. The great majority of those who have come into the Church are Ephraimites. It is the exception to find one of any other tribe, unless it is of Manasseh. “It is Ephraim, today, who holds the priesthood. It is with Ephraim that the Lord has made covenant and has revealed the fulness of the everlasting gospel. It is Ephraim who is building temples and performing the ordinances in them for both the living and for the dead. When the ‘lost tribes’ come—and it will be a most wonderful sight and a marvelous thing when they do come to Zion—in fulfilment of the promises made through Isaiah and Jeremiah, they will have to receive the crowning blessings from their brother Ephraim, the ‘firstborn’ in Israel” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3:252–53). Page 94: A3. Scattered Israel would be gathered home (see Articles of Faith 1:10; Jeremiah 16:14–16; Amos 9:8–15; 2 Nephi 25:15–17; Jeremiah 31:6–14; 1 Nephi 22:11–12). Page 95: Israel has been and is being gathered to the land of Zion. The Jews are returning to Jerusalem. What gathering and to where do you believe Jeremiah 31:1-17 refers to? I included that reference to the seminary manual because it doesn’t teach Joseph Smith is in Isaiah 40-48, but rather it is Christ. It says “Isaiah 40–48 - Isaiah writes about Jesus Christ, who will act as a shepherd to Israel and a light to the Gentiles”. The seminary’s manual mention of Isaiah 49 also doesn’t refer to Joseph Smith. Isaiah 49:5-6 – “And now the LORD says, he who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him; and that Israel might be gathered to him— for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD, and my God has become my strength—It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the preserved of Israel; I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.” Act 13:46 - Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. Act 13:47 - For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. In these verses, I believe Paul and Barnabas are representing the light but they themselves are not the light. Yes. Christ’s earthly mission was initially to the “circumcision” (Romans 15:8). Paul says a similar thing of himself in Galatians 2:7-8 (“But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles”). Jesus gave us a foreshadow of his calling to the Gentiles in John 10:16 (“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd"). I think there is plenty in Romans 15 where Paul identifies Christ and ties this with his quote of Isaiah 11:10. The heading in the ESV Bible is “Christ the Hope of Jews and Gentiles”. I will highlight all the places Christ is referenced: Romans 15:8 - For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God's truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, Romans 15:9 - and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written, “Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles, and sing to your name.” Romans 15:10 - And again it is said, “Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people.” Romans 15:11 - And again, “Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and let all the peoples extol him.” Romans 15:12 - And again Isaiah says, “The root of Jesse will come, even he who arises to rule the Gentiles; in him will the Gentiles hope.” I believe the jealousy came about because God only recognized the temple in Jerusalem. With all that was going on in the original thread, I may have missed directly answering some of your questions. Please feel free to restate them if my answers in this thread did not. Thank you.