theplains

I was more focused not on when he (Heavenly Father) is taught to have become our God but rather that he supposedly progressed and became a God (with his wife or wives) before they eventually started having spirit children as heavenly parents. That would mean Heavenly Mother became a God before Jesus was born to her.

You never accounted for the "activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing".

You never really answered the question posted by @GoCeltics

New York State fits the descriptions.

That Facebook video is not really coming from an LDS leader and doesn't actually discount what previous LDS leaders have taught. In the Book of Mormon narrative, Cumorah is part of a larger geographic system that includes the land northward, the land southward, east and west seas, and the "narrow neck of land" connecting them. Early believers were taught and believed the Book of Mormon described events spanning much of the Americas. In that older “hemispheric” view the narrow neck of land was often associated with Isthmus of Panama. Nephite and Lamanite civilizations supposedly spread across large parts of the continents, and the final battle at Hill Cumorah was simply much farther north. The “many waters, rivers, and fountains” language is actually from Ether 15:8–11 contextually nearby passages and earlier Ether geography descriptions (especially Ether 2–10), where the Jaredite land is described broadly as a water-rich environment. Where the real Cumorah connection comes from The actual textual link between “Ramah” and “Cumorah” is this: Ether 15:11 - "And it came to pass that they did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did hide up the records unto the Lord". Then in the Nephite record: Mormon 6:2 - "And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah". So the text itself creates this equivalence: Jaredite name: Ramah, Nephite name: Cumorah, same hill, according to the record. That's the actual internal connection. The "many waters, rivers, and fountains" idea comes from broader Jaredite geography descriptions in Ether. So when people connect it to the New York Hill Cumorah, they are doing this: Ether describes a land with abundant water systems. Ramah/Cumorah is in that Jaredite land. Western New York has many lakes, rivers, and wetlands (Finger Lakes region). That is why LDS leaders taught they are the same hill and that hill is in New York. Then add to this the supposed revelation in Doctrine and Covenants 128. "Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed". In addition to all the other sources from LDS leaders, I found another. “Letter VII.” Oliver Cowdery to W. W. Phelps. Latter Day Saints’ Messenger and Advocate (Kirtland, Ohio) 1, no. 10 (July 1835)

@GoCeltics From the 1997 Gospel Principles: All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like him—a god. He has said, “Behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39) Supposedly Heavenly Father is only the God of gods in the sense of only his own spirit children who are exalted. He is not the God of his own Father God.

Several LDS Church teachings use that chapter (usually only verses 1-4 or 1-7) to teach a great apostasy occurred after the death of the apostles but she don't account for when the "Wicked" was revealed, whose coming what evidenced by "all power and signs and lying wonders". I believe this great apostasy points to the period just before the Second Coming, not a period that started two millennia ago. "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness". God did not send a strong delusion yet to allow Satan to deceive the people with "all power and signs and lying wonders". The "he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way" I believe is some future event when the Holy Spirit's restraining influence is taken from the earth. Only then is this evil person revealed.

The full text, from the 1938 version of Teachings of Joseph Smith has this: Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God! I say that is a strange God anyhow—three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization. "Father, I pray not for the world, but I pray for them which thou hast given me." "Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one as we are." All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster. The sectarian idea is that it is a crammed-into-one God. I see those "He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster" and a "curious organization" ideas attributable to Joseph Smith.

I am a former Catholic but have never used that term to describe infant baptism. For adults, I think a priest or deacon pours water over the person’s head (or sometimes immerses them) three times while saying: "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".

Once a man (Heavenly Father) who supposedly became a God.

I would reword it slightly. "The official position of the church now is that the location of the hills Cumorah and Ramah is unknown. But it was taught as truth in the past by our prominent leaders".

What eye-witness descriptions of the hill and its environ by Mormon and Moroni make President Romney's statement (and all the other statements by LDS leaders) false and misleading?

President Wilford Woodruff said that a prophet will never be allowed to lead the Church astray (Gospel Principles).

Joseph Smith did not understand how God could be God in 3 persons so he made that reference to him being viewed as "he would be a giant or a monster". I don't think he meant it as a joke.

Leading someone to worship a foreign god is a pretty serious sin.

I don't believe the Book of Mormon is a historical document.

Based on the sources I provided earlier, LDS leaders taught that the hill Cumorah and Ramah are the same hill and in the same place. If you believe those teachings are false, then that's up to you. As for me, I don't believe the Book of Mormon is a historical document.

@3DOP @GoCeltics "Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God! I say that is a strange God anyhow—three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization. “Father, I pray not for the world, but I pray for them which thou hast given me.” “Holy Father, keep through Thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one as we are.” All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster" (History of the Church, volume 6, chapter 23). "Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me" (Isaiah 43:10).

False teaching leads people astray, away from the truth. It can also lead people into sin, worshipping a false God for example. I think LDS leaders mean the same thing.

Right. And if wrong, he led the hearers astray.

President Marion G. Romney, Second Counselor in the First Presidency, bore testimony of the events of the Book of Mormon in relation to the hill Cumorah in General Conference, October 4, 1975. The hills are the same and in the same place.

No. I highly doubt leaders intentionally teach something that is false. But they teach things that they believe are the truth, speaking them at General Conference, even putting them in books referred to as gospel doctrine, truth, or principles. When it is determined that it was really false, that's where the concept of leading people astray comes in. President Marion G. Romney, Second Counselor in the First Presidency, bore testimony of the events of the Book of Mormon in relation to the hill Cumorah in General Conference, October 4, 1975. "In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” (Morm. 6:6.) On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago—events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation. This second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites, flourished in America between 600 b.c. and a.d. 400. Their civilization came to an end for the same reason, at the same place, and in the same manner as did the Jaredites’. And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow … from the top of the hill Cumorah, [230,000] of my people who were hewn down, … Now my beloved brethren and sisters everywhere, both members of the Church and nonmembers, I bear you my personal witness that I know that the things I have presented to you today are true—both those pertaining to past events and those pertaining to events yet to come". More teachings from LDS leaders teaching the two hills are the same and in the same place is found here. Obviously the current church leadership does not accept these teachings as the truth. Or maybe they really do in their hearts.

I'm not sure where @InCognitus stands, but it seems you believe all those quotes from LDS leaders about the two hills being in the same location are false and misleading.

Thanks for providing Brant's reply to telnetd way back on September 1, 2013. I checked all the 6 pages in the thread and didn't see a follow-up reply from her to him. @Brant Gardner @telnetd Let me add my comments. Brant said, "Actually, President Ivins was pretty restrained in how he spoke of the New York hill". I don't get a sense of First Presidency member Ivins being restrained in his comments. From the 1928 General conference, here's more of what he said: "So far as we have information this was the final disposition which was made of the records given into the custody of Mormon, from the plates of. Nephi. This latter, with the addition of the Book of Ether, and the few chapters written by Moroni, constitute the record contained in the Book of Mormon. All of the remaining records, Mormon tells us, were deposited in the Hill Cumorah. That the Hill Cumorah and the Hill Ramah are identical is shown by the following: Moroni, in the Rook of Ether, says ... The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, definitely establish the following facts: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridg-ment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was from this hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them. According to the Book of Mormon many hundreds of thousands of people fell in battle around this hill, and the immediate vicinity. It was here that two once powerful nations were exterminated so far as their natural existence was concerned. It was here that these nations gathered together for their last great struggles. These people were human, as we are; they carried with them their most precious possessions until the last, and when the end of the mighty struggle came, and the result was in doubt, they hid them away in order that they might not fall into the hands of their enemies. Without doubt these treasures lie concealed today, some of them, at least, to be brought forth in the not distant future. How soon this will be we do not know, but this is certain, we are more than a century nearer that time than we were at the time when Joseph Smith took from their resting place in the Hill Cumorah, the plates from which he translated the contents of the Book of Mormon. All of these incidents to which I have referred, my brethren and sisters, are very closely associated with this particular spot in the State of New York. Therefore I feel, as I said in the beginning of my remarks, that the acquisition of that spot of ground is more than an incident in the history of the Church; it is an epoch—an epoch which in my opinion is fraught with that which may become of greater interest to the Latter-day Saints than that which has already occurred. We know that all of these records, all the sacred records of the Nephite people, were deposited by Mormon in that hill. That incident alone is sufficient to make it the sacred and hallowed spot that it is to us. I thank God that in a way which seems to have been providential it has come into the possession of the Church. I bear witness to you that the words which I have read here, quoted from the Book of Mormon, which refer to the future, will be fulfilled. Those additional records will come forth, they will be published to the world, that the children of our Father may be converted to faith in Christ, our Lord and Redeemer, through obedience to the doctrines which he taught. May God our Father hasten that day, is my humble prayer, and I ask it through Jesus Christ. Amen." This has been repeated by other significant church leaders - the two hills are the same. Here are a few notable ones. 1] "It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, “by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all.” Mormon adds: “And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites. It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon. Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3). 2] "In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” (Morm. 6:6.) On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago—events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation. This second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites, flourished in America between 600 b.c. and a.d. 400. Their civilization came to an end for the same reason, at the same place, and in the same manner as did the Jaredites’. Now my beloved brethren and sisters everywhere, both members of the Church and nonmembers, I bear you my personal witness that I know that the things I have presented to you today are true—both those pertaining to past events and those pertaining to events yet to come" (Marion G. Romney, General Conference, October 4, 1975). 3] In 1990 the office of the First Presidency, in a letter written by the Secretary to the First Presidency, stated that Cumorah is in New York: Dear Bishop Brooks: I have been asked to forward to you for acknowledgment and handling the enclosed copy of a letter to President Gordon B. Hinckley from Ronnie Sparks of your ward. Brother Sparks inquired about the location of the Hill Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon, where the last battle between the Nephites and Lamanites took place. The Church has long maintained, as attested to by references in the writings of General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon. The Brethren appreciate your assistance in responding to this inquiry, and asked that you convey to Brother Sparks their commendation for his gospel study. 4] "... at that time lying buried in the side of a hill near Joseph's home. The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the county of Wayne, State of New York. Here they became a flourishing nation; but, giving way in time to internal dissensions, they divided into factions, which warred with one another until the people were totally destroyed. This destruction, which occurred near the hill Ramah, afterward known among the Nephites as Cumorah, probably took place at about the time of Lehi's landing in South America" (James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith).

Thanks for the link.