theplains

You never explained with individual fulfilled verse 4 ("Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" and verse 9 ("Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders"). You're assuming that Jesus and Paul only spoke of localized events in Jerusalem.

"When persons have proved themselves faithful in all things required by the Lord, it is their privilege to receive covenants and obligations that will enable them to be heirs of God as members of the Church of the Firstborn. They are "sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise" and are those "into whose hands the Father has given all things" (D&C 76:51-55). They will be priests and priestesses, kings and queens, receiving the Father's glory, having the fulness of knowledge, wisdom, power, and dominion (D&C 76:56-62; cf. 107:19). (The Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Church of the Firstborn).

Do you believe Heavenly Father did not get married while he was only a man on some planet that his Father has created for him and his future bride? Following what I have seen in LDS teachings, Heavenly Mother becomes a God before Jesus becomes a God, when he reaches some pinnacle of intelligence and is ranked as a God.

Based on their writings, the apostles and elders didn't refer to themselves Aaronic or Melchizedek priests. Even with the advent of the Roman Catholic Church, this did not occur. It's also not present in the Book of Mormon, which supposedly had a church in this New Testament period.

Why did you leave the LDS faith?

I don't think an apology was ever issued for this October 1960 General Conference sermon by Spencer W. Kimball either: "The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos; five were darker but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation. At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl — sixteen — sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents — on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather. There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delight-someness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated".

When does the fulness of the Gentiles occur?

Even the JST wording points to a future event, where "Jesus, whose coming is not until after there cometh a falling away". This "coming" is the Second Coming. That's the context of 2 Thessalonians 2. The tense of the passage, using the JST, KJV, NKJV, or even the ESV ("The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders"), denotes the future. We have not seen anything of this magnitude, even in your reference to Titus or Vespasian.

Right. The scriptures harmonize with its entirety. There is nothing to indicate God is not God from all eternity, a supposed Heavenly Mother and Father became Gods, or that there are a plurality of Gods existing before a man supposedly progressed into becoming a God and then a heavenly parent of our Earth. These were the inventions of Joseph Smith.

InCognitus supposes I (theplains) is GoCeltics = telnetd = thetanakas, not sure who else. If I copy and paste some of your content or ask similar questions as you, then you'll be on that list too. I am a distinct individual. I am not a godhead made up separate individuals. I am a questioning non-LDS person. Not sure about GoCeltics.

Paul, in Romans 15:16, uses priestly imagery, even though he does not claim a formal priesthood office. The New Testament never describes a restoration of priesthood "orders" (Aaronic vs. Melchizedek) but it does introduce a priesthood of all believers. 1 Peter 2:5 - "a holy priesthood". 1 Peter 2:9 - "a royal priesthood". This suggests priesthood is collective and spiritual, not hierarchical or office-based like in the Old Testament. It applies to all believers, not specifically to apostles.

One could also say that modern day LDS leaders may be undermining the faith of current and future Latter-day Saints by disavowing some of the doctrines and teachings taught as truth by past LDS leaders.

Maybe another angel will appear to give the location of these other plates.

Gentile blood which supposedly changes into the blood of Abraham when a person is acted upon by the Holy Ghost (Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, chapter 21).

According to Abraham 2:11, the right of the [Melchizedek] priesthood is for literal (blood) descendants. "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee; and in thee (that is, in thy Priesthood) and in thy seed (that is, thy Priesthood), for I give unto thee a promise that this right shall continue in thee, and in thy seed after thee (that is to say, the literal seed, or the seed of the body) shall all the families of the earth be blessed, even with the blessings of the Gospel, which are the blessings of salvation, even of life eternal". But I think the LDS Church has developed a way to alleviate this problem - patriarchal blessings.

In Jeremiah 1:5, he is not boasting. The verse is part of God's call of Jeremiah "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations".

Many have taught various things - even that Heavenly Father was once a man who became a God or that the Holy Spirit is a child of heavenly parents. But I don't go beyond the scriptures: Deuteronomy 4:35; Deuteronomy 4:39; Deuteronomy 6:4; 2 Samuel 7:22; 1 Kings 8:60; Nehemiah 9:6; Isaiah 43:10–11; Isaiah 44:6; Isaiah 44:8; Isaiah 45:5–6; Isaiah 45:21–22; Isaiah 46:9.

Satan has been active long before the period of the New Testament. But we have never seen anything like the magnitude described in verses 4-12. Here's a brief glimpse: "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved". You mentioned verse 7. "Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way". How do you understand that?

LDS leaders were supposedly chosen and prepared before coming to earth. From a seminary manual: "He also saw others the Lord reserved to be born in the latter days to build temples and perform ordinances for the dead". Choice spirits reserved to come forth in the fulness of times Read Doctrine and Covenants 138:53–56, looking for the work Heavenly Father prepared noble spirits to accomplish in the latter days. "Our Heavenly Father has reserved many of His most noble spirits—perhaps, I might say, His finest team—for this final phase. Those noble spirits—those finest players, those heroes—are you! (Russell M. Nelson and Wendy W. Nelson, "Hope of Israel" [worldwide youth devotional, June 3, 2018], ChurchofJesusChrist.org) (Doctrine and Covenants Seminary Teacher Manual, 2025).

Early Latter-day Saints generally understood the Book of Mormon to describe events occurring across much of the Americas. Under this older "hemispheric" model, the narrow neck of land was often identified with the Isthmus of Panama, and Nephite and Lamanite civilizations were thought to have occupied large regions of North and South America. In that framework, the final battle at Cumorah simply took place much farther north. It's worth noting that the phrase "many waters, rivers, and fountains" comes from Ether 15:8–11 and related Jaredite passages, particularly the broader geographical descriptions found throughout Ether 2–10. These passages describe the Jaredite homeland as a region rich in water. The direct textual connection between Ramah and Cumorah is found here: Ether 15:11 states that the Jaredites "did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did hide up the records unto the Lord." Mormon 6:2 then refers to the land of Cumorah as the location of the Nephites' final gathering. Taken together, the text itself identifies Ramah (the Jaredite name) and Cumorah (the Nephite name) as the same hill. The "many waters, rivers, and fountains" description is not specifically attached to Cumorah in the text but comes from the broader Jaredite geographical setting described in Ether. Those who identify the New York Hill Cumorah with the Book of Mormon hill generally reason as follows: 1. Ether describes a Jaredite land characterized by abundant water. 2. Ramah/Cumorah is located within that Jaredite setting. 3. Western New York contains numerous lakes, rivers, wetlands, and the Finger Lakes region. For that reason, many early LDS leaders concluded that the hill mentioned in the Book of Mormon was the same hill located in New York. Whether one accepts that conclusion or not, that is the basic logic behind the traditional identification.

Rather than throw previous leaders under the bus and accuse them of teaching falsely, they resort to "we don't know".

I was more focused not on when he (Heavenly Father) is taught to have become our God but rather that he supposedly progressed and became a God (with his wife or wives) before they eventually started having spirit children as heavenly parents. That would mean Heavenly Mother became a God before Jesus was born to her.

You never accounted for the "activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing".

You never really answered the question posted by @GoCeltics

New York State fits the descriptions.