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Hi Calm If I remember correctly, that Dario, I think mentioned of a connection with the Netherlands.

Neither am I. Nor should any LDS be. Is there a reason you mention this in the context of a discussion about the certainty of certain LDS beliefs? Just curious.

What name do you go by, is it Stephan?

I think I mixed up this ‘Dario’ with Dario M. Both are European and I wasn’t reading close enough to get the country and other details as I popped in during a short break between phone errands. I did a search on members and we have 3 Dario’s listed, the other one was a DarioJelks and one Darion (member of the Church though). Stephan Dario, how common is Dario? This ‘Dario’ is German and the other was living in the Netherlands and Portugal when he was posting in the board. I can’t remember if the Netherlands was his birthplace or not.

You know your missionaries are still children. And they are poor as F. because they too have to pay your church tax. Now I just met the boys, and they were all marvelous. But they did not yet fully read the bibles. They were not ready and a child should have a good childhood UNTIL 21. It is the foundation of the harsh cruel adult live. It was a joy to play some Forza Horizon 3 and some Microsoft Flight Simulator and some CoD with them. Finally some relief and joy for them.

Now this was heavy stuff, maybe play some games to ease up.

My strongest weapon, for when an evil jedi invades your mind.

Oh and if you think Corona was bad, go google Mirrorbacteria. It will be the end of God's creation.

This sign I found at the end of the old bible I recognize the pyramid with the all seeing eye, the same as on your US Dollar and behind it... the nuclear sign??? The whole page is for this sign. I respect and fear it.

I have something important to tell you. I do not want to anger you with this message. Do not just listen to any voices you hear! The openly available CIA documents on Uri Geller as well as the movie Men who stare at Goats tell us that the mind can be invaded and voices can be sent and received by our heads. There are other gods in this existance besides the god of christendom. The zoroastrian god, also Baal Hamon, the jewish god who seems to be Lucifer if some Rabbies are to be believed, god knows what the dinosaur reptiles before us believed in. Do not forget that this planet belonged to the reptiles, the dinosaurs or dragons and Christian imagery shows angels dominating the dragon and the dragon is clearly mentioned in the bible. Christians shall not have any god besides "god". The Jehovas whitness who I want to join btw. have a name for him its Jehova and that is the name of the Christian god. Now I warn you and you should heed this warning. Be wary of the craftiness and the lies and deceit of the jew. For he rules the 2 party system of the USA and his star is for the pyramid on the north and for the pyramid on the south pole. He claims to control the world. Silverstein made an anti terror insurance of the WTC 1 year prior to the planes hitting it. He made billions and kept the money. This is how far they will go. They even struck the pentagon and since then you have been a vassal state doing their bidding. Half of ISIS came from guantanamo. We live in The end of days. Be aware. They will come for you. And worse, they will divide and conquer, so they will try to make you fight your fellow christian or muslim brothers. This is why I direct my message to every Mormon out there, including the lowest in the hirarchy. Because we the people we share responsibility. And to the white people among you. You are Arians from Persia. You are NOT caucasian and NOT proto indo european. You traveled through the Kaukasus and then claimed europe when the ice subsided. Never forget. Everyone on earth except Jews and possibly Hindus is a fellow christian. The Aztecs fell easily to the spanish because millenia ago we were their masters and that is why their King refused to do war against the spanish. But it ended badly. La noche triste. You can replay the events in Age of Empires 2. Heed my words. The jew will come for you. But not every jew is bad. But Zionism poisons their minds. Wenn du willst, ist es kein Traum! - Theodor Herschel

Hello all, he means me with Dario. I welcome and am thankful for your initiative of creating this thread. A moderator with moderation power must move my content over here because I can't do that.

I think you are correct: we do agree more than we disagree. As for His criteria? I suppose we could look at Matthew 7:21 ("Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."). True. We will each of us be judged individually. And I don't think we need to worry much about what criteria He will be using to judge others, just those He uses to judge us as individuals. Well, that is its primary purpose. I also think it functions as "Exhibit A" in the truth claims of Joseph Smith and the Church itself. If the book is what it claims to be (the "antecedent"), then certain "consequents" follow. Sill a matter of faith, of course. But answering if the Church is what it claims to be is, I think, going to come down to the book as a testament, an authentic testament, of Jesus Christ. We do agree on a lot. I am glad of that. Thanks, -Smac

Society started changing the laws around 2013 in California when it started to allow transgender people to use the bathrooms of their choice. So if "society got along fine without such laws", then why was that law necessary (technically it was a statewide school administrative decision so not a law passed by legislature but is pretty similar in effect). It was then 2014 when the first law was attempted to restrict bathrooms to the sex, pretty much in reaction to the 2013 change. So doesn't that seem like the start of this whole bathroom battle was the change to society to allow transgender in bathrooms and people are just trying to get back to how society was previously. Female specific bathrooms is a fairly new invention. In the Victorian and earlier, women didn't have toilets that they could use in public. They had to stay pretty near their homes. The creation of female public bathrooms is considered to have helped with emancipating women and letting them get out in the public. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flush_toilets_at_the_Great_Exhibition has a quote "It has been argued by Prof. Clara Greed that the lack of such toilets in the Victorian era was actually intentional, and a mechanism to control the movement of woman and exclude them from public spaces." A term used for this is "urinal leash" where women were leashed to their homes because there were no toilets available for them. I think the reason we didn't have "bathroom laws" before 2013 was because we lived with a societal code: If you were a man, you used the men's toilets. And if you were a woman, you used the women's toilet. And if you were transgender, you didn't tell anyone and tried to use the toilet that you felt comfortable. But now, we have laws that allow people who look like men to use the women's toilet and people who look like women to use the men's toilet. So the societal code has broken down and there are people who are afraid that the change in the societal code could be dangerous. Maybe we'll go back to having the "urinal leash"?

I think we agree on much more than we disagree. I have a different view of John 14: 6 perhaps. I believe that verse is stating a simple fact. No one will come to the Father but by Christ as the judge on the Day of Judgment. He is the judge and jury. He makes the decision, so yes we will "come" to the Father by (or through Christ). He is the decider in chief. The question is what will His criteria be? That is where my uncertainty comes to the foreground. I don't believe the Bible gives us the criteria given the vast disparity of billions of living people over the millennia. I still can't quite figure out what the Book of Mormon claims to be beyond another testament of Jesus Christ. I stipulate that it is that. I am with you on all your certainties and uncertainties in your list. I am certain that the LDS church is a Christian church, filled with some who are themselves Christians and others who are not, just like any other Church. Being a Christian is an individual thing; I am pretty certain of that. Will there be non-Christians (in this life) who Christ will welcome into the presence of the Father? Yes, I think so. That is where the wideness in His mercy part comes in. Best wishes.

I don't think Peter Enns teaches with certainty that certainty is a sin. I think he teaches that it can be sinful. No, I am not certain the LDS are wrong in their beliefs. I just don't worry about it. My wife and I were just talking about all the folks in Tibet-Nepal border area who died in the flood. Probably less than 1% of them Christians of any kind. Am I worried for their eternal destiny? Not really. I believe in a wideness in God's mercy. They will all appear on that day in front of Christ since no man (or woman) cometh unto the Father but by Him. He will be a loving and just judge. I leave them in his hands.

I was thinking about Dario today! People come and go. It seems like many have gone. I thought you might be one of those, Dario. Anyway Dario, what is on your mind?

You don’t seem to care about objections (in the sense of adapting your preferred approach) from any trans advocacy group, I'm not sure why you would say that. I may not agree with much of what "trans advocacy" organizations have to say, but I certainly want to listen and give them their due consideration. In that sense, I do "care." I do see it as a "weakness." CB's proposal contradicts a number of what I think are the basic tenets of "trans" ideology, as well as the advocacy organizations that seek to present and entrench and enforce them in society. To stake out a position based on ideology, and then immediately formulate a proposal that fundamentally undercuts the basic tenets of that ideology, is - in my view - not a very strong position. Thanks, -Smac

But it does when used to create onlys and others. I am still working on understanding your perspective here. John 14:6 - "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." Acts 4:12 - “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” 1 Timothy 2:5 — “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” John 10:9 — “I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved.” John 10:7–8 — “I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers.” Was Jesus here "creat{ing} onlys and others" in John 14:6? Were His apostles doing that in the other passages? To be sure, given your experience, I can see how a poor sampling of Latter-day Saint culture has treated sacred matters as things to be bragged about or used to disparage others. I am very sorry that happened. I do not think what the Latter-day Saints said to your wife was an accurate representation or reflection or application of the teachings of the Church. Don't all Christians say that "only" Jesus saves? As for "certainty," I think it is more apt to say that "we walk by faith, not by sight" (2 Corinthians 5:7). There may be some very few persons who can legitimately claim to have epistemic "certainty" of certain sacred matters. For most of us, though, we believe. We have faith. That faith can, over time, perhaps be tested and strengthened to the extent that a person may claim "certainty" of some things. In contrast, there are some rhetorical conventions in the Church which, while well-intended, are the product more of culture and repetitive experiences than actual, studied faith. Hence when a ten year old girl stands up in Fast & Testimony meeting and says (recites, really) "I'd like to bear my testimony I know this church is true...", I admit I entertain the possibility that this young person has indeed had some fantastic spiritual experience that has removed all doubt, but also the possibility that she has incorporated a stock phrase she has heard several times as a workable formulated expression of faith, and in which "know" means "strongly believe." Anyway, "blind spots." Yes, we all have them. I quite agree with you there. None at all? John 14:6 seems to indicate that those who affirmatively refuse to accept Jesus Christ's atonement will not be the beneficiaries of it. Isn't that a pretty big criterion? Perhaps the most fundamental and almost exclusive one? I too value incertitude, because is gives us the opportunity to thresh our beliefs and differentiate between what we believe in with "certainty" or much potency, and what we believe in as matters for which uncertainty is the byword. Jesus Christ as the Son of God? I strive for certainty on that point. Obedience to the commandments as an expression of faith in Christ? I strive for certainty on that point. Repentance as an essential component of daily life? I strive for certainty on that point. Is the Book of Mormon what is claims to be? I strive for certainty on that point. Was Noah's flood global or local? I don't know. Uncertainty/incertitude governs that question (though I lean to the latter). Was Job a real person or not? Uncertainty/incertitude. Were the conquest of Canaan and the slaughter of the Amalekites divinely mandated as depicted in the OT? Perhaps. Lots of uncertainty/incertitude. Has God ever mandated polygamy? Apparently, but I struggle with it. Uncertainty. Unearned or false certainty likely is. But maybe certainty can happen in some limited respects. "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13). I don't know. Frankly, I'm not sure it is always incumbent upon us to pursue "certainty" where faith and obedience are sufficient to carry the day. It is a good thought, and one I endorse and share. Thanks, -Smac

Isn’t being certain that certainty is a sin or even just wrong contradictory with holding a position of incertitude? ” I have no certainty on what criteria Christ will base his judgment about the eternal destiny of those who appear before Him. ” Are you not certain LDS are wrong in their beliefs about ordinances and authority being required by God as part of our covenant to enter back into his presence? Neither do we. In the end it will be those who want to be of the family of God (those exalted will be of the Church of the Firstborn, the Restored Church is merely a mortal vehicle as should be obvious from the inclusion of “Latter-day” in the name since eternity has no “latter days”, only mortality) and those that don’t. “The faithful saints were made members of the Church of the Firstborn in eternity, since they receive through Jesus Christ the inheritance of the firstborn (D&C 93:21–22).” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bd/firstborn?lang=eng

You don’t seem to care about objections (in the sense of adapting your preferred approach) from any trans advocacy group, so not seeing why you bring this up for others’ POV as if it’s a weakness.

But it does when used to create onlys and others. Using the Johari Window as a valid construct, many of my LDS friends have huge blind spots. As do virtually all religious groups who base their doctrine on certainty and onlyism. I have no certainty on what criteria Christ will base his judgment about the eternal destiny of those who appear before Him. I value incertitude because it gives greater meaning to my faith in Christ as impartial judge. I also am replete with my own blind spots which I freely admit. I also have my own hidden quadrant in my life's Johari Window. I might not go so far as Peter Enns, the Evangelical scholar, in declaring certainty as a sin. However, I do believe in a wideness in God's mercy and trust Christ's judgment in that final day. I do not believe there will be Mormons, Moravians, Muslims, Methodists and Mennonites at the judgment seat. I believe there will be humans there, judged by an all-wise and benevolent judge. That might be a good thought for you with your lawyer mentality. Best wishes.