I don't believe in Evolution because No Death before the Fall is in the scriptures

[Freedom]

1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

That is your interpretation, I have a different interpretation. There are many ways to interpret our scriptures. 

You are welcome to believe in the God of the gaps. The problem is that these gaps keep getting smaller and smaller as we learn more about the natural world. Eventually your god will disappear.  

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

That is your interpretation, I have a different interpretation. There are many ways to interpret our scriptures. 

True.  There is a wrong way and a right way.  You are certainly free to interpret it the wrong way.  It is obvious that you haven't a clue why that might be.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Freedom said:

You are welcome to believe in the God of the gaps. The problem is that these gaps keep getting smaller and smaller as we learn more about the natural world. Eventually your god will disappear.  

You may have missed the point of his theological position:  Sam has a basically protestant theology, rather than a Mormon one.  Shhh . . .  Don't tell  him.  He doesn't know.

[Johnnie Cake]

On 9/3/2017 at 6:53 PM, SamuelTheLamanite said:

It is a test. The scriptures teach that "divinely approved deception"  can happen, some Mormon intellectuals wrote an article about it. 

Yes, but I believe God created the evidence to make it look that way. It is a philosophical idea similar to the simulation hypothesis.

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie - Thessalonians 2:11. See also  Jeremiah 4:10, Jeremiah 20:7, Ezekiel 14:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:11? Abraham 2:24

As it is said...you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink...  I'm sorry you're afraid of the truth...

[SamuelTheLamanite]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You may have missed the point of his theological position:  Sam has a basically protestant theology, rather than a Mormon one.  Shhh . . .  Don't tell  him.  He doesn't know.

With your logic any church teaching could be wrong, including the church's view on marriage. Maybe the Book of Mormon is not historical. Why do we even bother watching General Conference? Why do we need leaders or an organized church?  Are the prophets and apostles always wrong about something during a conference session? 

4 hours ago, Freedom said:

You are welcome to believe in the God of the gaps. The problem is that these gaps keep getting smaller and smaller as we learn more about the natural world. Eventually your god will disappear.  

Science doesn't need God. Science has a rational explanation for the formation of mountains, rivers, earth. I makes sense that God made our world appear to be godless to test our faith.  I think your view on God and Science only works for Deism. 

Please tell me how God used millions of years of death and evolution? Evolution is a blind watchmaker. Mutations don't work under a plan.

Edited September 5, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[SamuelTheLamanite]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

Answer: God's miracles through Moses were not performed according to telestial (as in this fallen world's) laws,

Thank You! Good answer. So the Earth was different before the Fall. 

[Robert F. Smith]

55 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

With your logic any church teaching could be wrong, including the church's view on marriage. Maybe the Book of Mormon is not historical. Why do we even bother watching General Conference? Why do we need leaders or an organized church?  Are the prophets and apostles always wrong about something during a conference session? 

........................................................

Once again, in desperation, you have chosen to lie.  The question is Are you going to blame your lies on God?  How about it, Sam.  Do you believe that any or all LDS doctrine is wrong, or just that part of it that you don't like?  So now you are denying the historicity of the Book of Mormon, rejecting Mormon doctrine on marriage, claiming that it isn't worthwhile to listen to General Conference, and that you don't think we need leaders or an organized church -- because you claim that Satan influences prophets and apostles to lie.  Sounds to me like you are on the high road to apostasy.  After all, those are the very teachings of the anti-Mormons whom you agree with.

[Freedom]

1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

With your logic any church teaching could be wrong, including the church's view on marriage. Maybe the Book of Mormon is not historical. Why do we even bother watching General Conference? Why do we need leaders or an organized church?  Are the prophets and apostles always wrong about something during a conference session? 

Science doesn't need God. Science has a rational explanation for the formation of mountains, rivers, earth. I makes sense that God made our world appear to be godless to test our faith.  I think your view on God and Science only works for Deism. 

Please tell me how God used millions of years of death and evolution? Evolution is a blind watchmaker. Mutations don't work under a plan.

Correction, science does not need magic to work. Science examines the observable world and has no position on God since God is not observable. I don't need to tell you how evolution works, all you need to do is read the research. Your claim that God make our world appear godless is an argument from silence. You have no evidence in science or in scripture that this is the case. The scriptures do not consider how God did it so there is no point speculating. Lets leave science to explain how we got here and religion to explain why we are here. Genesis 1 is the temple ceremony. It is a story of covenants. 

[Freedom]

On 9/3/2017 at 5:30 AM, Bobbieaware said:

I've watched real-life murder mysteries on TV and there have been episodes where a veritable mountain of compelling physical and circumstantial evidence, including a very believable video recording of a confession of guilt by the individual charged with murder, so powerfully damns a man that the jury comes down with a guilty verdict after only a few minutes of proforma deliberation. Everybody including the police investigators, the prosecutors, the judge, the jury, the public and even the family members and friends of the convicted were supremely convinced of the man's guilt. And then years later DNA evidence clears the convicted individual, resulting in his exoneration and release, followed by the long-delayed conviction of the actual perpetrator of the crime who admits to the whole thing. There are even cases where the original mountain of "evidence" is so great that the law enforcement officials and prosecutors stubbornly continue to believe the exonerated man is guilty as sin even though the new exculpatory evidence clearly refutes that belief.

There is no human being alive today who can travel back into the distant past to actually see with their own eyes how the human race came to be, but an alleged mountain of irrefutable evidence convinces many that the human race is the end-product of billions of years of organic evolution. 

Did you ever stop to think that fossil record, however compelling it might now seem, might actually be pointing to something that has not yeti even entered into the minds of those who are convinced that Darwin was correct? Even though the evidence might seem to compellingly point to one scenario, what if those who believe in organic evolution are one day flabbergasted and horrified to learn that something they were so very sure of turns out not to be true?  What if the evidence that so convinced them points to some other creative phenomenon in the mysterious economy of God?

Personally, I am keeping an open mind on the subject because the Lord promises us the day will come when he reveals exactly how he created all things. And among those things he will reveal will be many "HIDDEN THINGS WHICH NO MAN KNEW." Until that blessed millennial day of the heavenly revelation of all things arrives , I will reserve judgement. You seem to be comfortable jumping to conclusions based on the doctrines of modern science, butI am not. The instantaneous resurrection into glorious immortality of billions upon billions of human beings, whose bodies are now nothing but scattered dust, clearly reveals that God is able to do a great deal of his wondrous creative work in a very brief period of time, in the exact manner the proponents of organic evolution say can't happen. The miraculous resurrection alone puts our present understanding of natural law at defiance with the revelations of God. I am at peace waiting on the Lord...

32  Yea, verily I say unto you, in that day when the Lord shall come, he shall reveal all things--

33 Things which have passed, and hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth, by which it was made, and the purpose and the end thereof- 

34 Things most precious, things that are above, and things that are beneath, things that are in the earth, and upon the earth, and in heaven. (D&C 101)

"We have the fulness of the everlasting gospel, meaning that we have all that is needed to gain the fulness of salvation. We have every truth, doctrine, and principle, every rite, power, and ordinance--all that is needed--to gain exaltation in the highest heaven of the celestial world. But we do not know all things; there are doctrines in endless array of which we know next to nothing; indeed, there are more things in the darkness of the unknown than there are in the light of the known. We do not even know what the faithful knew in Enoch's Zion, nor among the Nephites when they dwelt in righteousness for generations. We do not know what is on the sealed portion of the plates from which the Book of Mormon came. Ours is a day for drinking milk; the day when we, as a people at least, can partake of the meat of the word is in the future.

That future is millennial. In that day, "all things shall become new," saith the Lord, "that my knowledge and glory may dwell upon all the earth. . . . Yea, verily I say unto you, in that day when the Lord shall come, he shall reveal all things--Things which have passed, and hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth, by which it was made, and the purpose and the end thereof--Things most precious, things that are above, and things that are beneath, things that are in the earth, and upon the earth, and in heaven." (D&C 101:25, 32-34.) As we ponder these heaven-sent words, we are led to exclaim: Thanks be to him who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, who knows all things and who seeks to pour out his revelations, and all the knowledge of eternity, upon all who will receive them. Ere long the dark veil of ignorance and unbelief that covers the earth and blinds the minds of men shall be pierced. Light and truth will fall from heaven as does rain from the clouds above. (Bruce R McConkie)

 

This entire argument is an argument from silence. Did you ever consider that god is a giant elephant living on the moon and the world is in fact flat and just 5 km across, and you a flower? Yes there are hidden things, yes it is possible that science is wrong. possible, but not probable. You have no evidence it is wrong other then your need for it to be wrong because you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the first few chapters of Genesis. 

[Bobbieaware]

11 minutes ago, Freedom said:

This entire argument is an argument from silence. Did you ever consider that god is a giant elephant living on the moon and the world is in fact flat and just 5 km across, and you a flower? Yes there are hidden things, yes it is possible that science is wrong. possible, but not probable. You have no evidence it is wrong other then your need for it to be wrong because you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the first few chapters of Genesis. 

The essence of my argument is since the Doctrine and Covenants informs us the time is going to come when God himself -- not earthly scientists -- is going to reveal the hidden mysteries of his economy pertaining to precisely how the world and all living things were created by his hand, and that among those things to be revealed there will be some astonishing surprises (I.e. things that no man alive now knows, including you), I have decided to withhold judgement as to the validity or invalidity of the theory of organic evolution until the Lord either affirms or debunks it. I am further guided to withhold judgement as to the validity or invalidity of the theory of evolution because the Book of Moses (not Genesis) -- a pure revelation from God transmitted from inspired prophet to inspired prophet without uninspired intermediaries --  clearly casts doubt on the theory of evolution as currently understood and propounded. 

When there is a controversy between the word of God and modern science, I am one of those members of the Church who is going to give the benefit of the doubt to the word of God every time and I will continue to defer judgement until the Lord resolves the controversy once and for all by the words of his own mouth. If you are one of those who has decided to defer to the theories of modern science over the plain declarations of the word of God, that is your prerogative.But despite all the pleadings and attempts to humiliate by mockery from the windows of the great and spacious building, I will patiently wait on the Lord for the answers before bowing the knee to a theory of creation championed by fallen mortals, most of whom do not even believe in God. But if in that millennial day of revelation the Lord reveals the atheistic scientists got it right in spite of their insistence that there is no God, I will bow to the truth as he reveals it.

Until the Lord shows me how the following verses of scripture square with the theory of evolution, I will continue to defer judgement...

1 Thus the heaven and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day I, God, ended my work, and all things which I had made; and I rested on the seventh day from all my work, and all things which I had made were finished, and I, God, saw that they were good;

3 And I, God, blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it; because that in it I had rested from all my work which I, God, had created and made.

4 And now, behold, I say unto you, that these are the generations of the heaven and of the earth, when they were created, in the day that I, the Lord God, made the heaven and the earth,

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

6 But I, the Lord God, spake, and there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.

8 And I, the Lord God, planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there I put the man whom I had formed.

9 And out of the ground made I, the Lord God, to grow every tree, naturally, that is pleasant to the sight of man; and man could behold it. And it became also a living soul. For it was spiritual in the day that I created it; for it remaineth in the sphere in which I, God, created it, yea, even all things which I prepared for the use of man; and man saw that it was good for food. And I, the Lord God, planted the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and also the tree of knowledge of good and evil. (Moses 3)

[CV75]

8 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Thank You! Good answer. So the Earth was different before the Fall. 

Well, I've been saying that from day one.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

 

8 hours ago, Freedom said:

Correction, science does not need magic to work. Science examines the observable world and has no position on God since God is not observable. 

Okay, I am creating a new topic 

[thesometimesaint]

16 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

That is your interpretation, I have a different interpretation. There are many ways to interpret our scriptures. 

That is a truism.

[thesometimesaint]

11 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

With your logic any church teaching could be wrong, including the church's view on marriage. Maybe the Book of Mormon is not historical. Why do we even bother watching General Conference? Why do we need leaders or an organized church?  Are the prophets and apostles always wrong about something during a conference session? 

Science doesn't need God. Science has a rational explanation for the formation of mountains, rivers, earth. I makes sense that God made our world appear to be godless to test our faith.  I think your view on God and Science only works for Deism. 

Please tell me how God used millions of years of death and evolution? Evolution is a blind watchmaker. Mutations don't work under a plan.

The LDS take the position that God is the ultimate truth giver. That he chooses when and if he communicates with man. However that process is not infallible. We mortals make plenty of mistakes, and have plenty of misunderstandings of what God says, and does. We have mortal leaders who have authority to speak for God in the running of Christ's Church here on earth. I don't know as they are ALWAYS wrong about anything. I do know that they have been wrong on occasion on some things.

Science must be Agnostic in order for it to have a rational explanation for any given observation. Science doesn't support an Atheist proposition either. It makes no claim about God or lack thereof. Deism is a type of Theism. As such science can not make any claim about it. Individual scientists can, of course, believe or not believe as they prefer.

Such is beyond the scope of a religious discussion board. But a few good college courses in the sciences is a good start.

[Freedom]

22 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

The essence of my argument is since the Doctrine and Covenants informs us the time is going to come when God himself -- not earthly scientists -- is going to reveal the hidden mysteries of his economy pertaining to precisely how the world and all living things were created by his hand, and that among those things to be revealed there will be some astonishing surprises (I.e. things that no man alive now knows, including you), I have decided to withhold judgement as to the validity or invalidity of the theory of organic evolution until the Lord either affirms or debunks it. I am further guided to withhold judgement as to the validity or invalidity of the theory of evolution because the Book of Moses (not Genesis) -- a pure revelation from God transmitted from inspired prophet to inspired prophet without uninspired intermediaries --  clearly casts doubt on the theory of evolution as currently understood and propounded. 

When there is a controversy between the word of God and modern science, I am one of those members of the Church who is going to give the benefit of the doubt to the word of God every time and I will continue to defer judgement until the Lord resolves the controversy once and for all by the words of his own mouth. If you are one of those who has decided to defer to the theories of modern science over the plain declarations of the word of God, that is your prerogative.But despite all the pleadings and attempts to humiliate by mockery from the windows of the great and spacious building, I will patiently wait on the Lord for the answers before bowing the knee to a theory of creation championed by fallen mortals, most of whom do not even believe in God. But if in that millennial day of revelation the Lord reveals the atheistic scientists got it right in spite of their insistence that there is no God, I will bow to the truth as he reveals it.

Until the Lord shows me how the following verses of scripture square with the theory of evolution, I will continue to defer judgement...

1 Thus the heaven and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day I, God, ended my work, and all things which I had made; and I rested on the seventh day from all my work, and all things which I had made were finished, and I, God, saw that they were good;

3 And I, God, blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it; because that in it I had rested from all my work which I, God, had created and made.

4 And now, behold, I say unto you, that these are the generations of the heaven and of the earth, when they were created, in the day that I, the Lord God, made the heaven and the earth,

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

6 But I, the Lord God, spake, and there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.

8 And I, the Lord God, planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there I put the man whom I had formed.

9 And out of the ground made I, the Lord God, to grow every tree, naturally, that is pleasant to the sight of man; and man could behold it. And it became also a living soul. For it was spiritual in the day that I created it; for it remaineth in the sphere in which I, God, created it, yea, even all things which I prepared for the use of man; and man saw that it was good for food. And I, the Lord God, planted the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and also the tree of knowledge of good and evil. (Moses 3)

The challenge you face is you insist on applying modern 21st century definitions to ancient texts and applying concrete interpretations on a very figurative liturgical text. You refuse to consider that the expressions do not mean what you think they mean. You refuse to consider that you have a fundamental lack of understanding of how to read any document that was not written in modern english.