Gematria

[inquiringmind]

Did Joseph ever say anything about Gematria?

I just posted this question on another forum:

How many numbers can be associated with the Hebrew word for Temple?

I just found out that one number that can be associated with that word (thru Gematria) is 76, and Brigham Young was president of the Mormon Church (and, according to Mormons, the living prophet) at the time the first Mormon Temple was built.

Is God trying to tell us (thru Gematria), that the LDS Church is his Church?

[DarkScythe]

yes it is his church and it is interesting in your thinking is

[ERayR]

Did Joseph ever say anything about Gematria?

I just posted this question on another forum:

How many numbers can be associated with the Hebrew word for Temple?

I just found out that one number that can be associated with that word (thru Gematria) is 76, and Brigham Young was president of the Mormon Church (and, according to Mormons, the living prophet) at the time the first Mormon Temple was built.

Is God trying to tell us (thru Gematria), that the LDS Church is his Church?

You have at least one error in the above. Brigham Young was not President of the Church when the first LDS temple was built.

[tyler90az]

The church is true. Just as people are different so is God's way of showing people the church is true. That may be through Gematria or some other way. Regardless, if you are feeling that God is showing you the church is true, you may want to act on it.

[CASteinman]

Did Joseph ever say anything about Gematria?

I can't say that I recall any instance of this. He addressed numbers in the scriptures sometimes, but almost tangentially -- as though it were not much of an interest.

[volgadon]

One, I don't know of anything suggesting that Joseph was familiar with gematria. Two, there are many different gematria systems which could produce different numbers and correlations. Third, all this being said, the Hebrew year of Joseph's has an interesting correlation in gematra.

[MormonMason]

I do not recall whether he mentioned anything about Gematria or not but he did use a Kabbalistic number in a discussion of the creation and the age of the earth and the Book of Abraham. The number was 2,555,000,000. The same number is discussed briefly in the introduction of a book on Sepher Yetsirah by Aryeh Kaplan. Of interest is the happenstance that the Sepher Yetsirah is also said to have come down from Father Abraham. Other than that, I am aware of nothing relating to gematria in the teachings of Joseph Smith.

[inquiringmind]

One, I don't know of anything suggesting that Joseph was familiar with gematria. Two, there are many different gematria systems which could produce different numbers and correlations.

You don't mean that there's more than one Hebrew system, or more than one Greek system, do you?

Third, all this being said, the Hebrew year of Joseph's has an interesting correlation in gematra.

The Hebrew year of Joseph's birth, death, or what?

And what makes it interesting?

[TAO]

Well, I have heard that the numbers for 'serpent' and 'Christ' relate to each other. It was sort of said that this implies that there is some missing information in the traditional account of Genesis which is in the other books... is that what you are talking about?

Edited April 14, 2013 by TAO

[canard78]

Isn't this just another reminder that with "big data" comes meaningless correlations?

The Count in Sesame Street was once asked his favourite number. 34,969 his answer. He would never say why but the clue was that its square root is 187.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19409960

BBC then invited readers to come up with reasons why. There were some impressive answers. Quite possibly all wrong. With billions of lives and trillions (and more) numbers there will always be impressive (but meaningless) parallels between them:

1. The Count has an excellent memory for numbers. He originally stated that 34,969 "used to be" his favourite number to Grover in 1978 (episode 1156). Why 187? Here is my theory: Sesame Street episode 0187 is one where Kermit the Frog sings It's Not Easy Being Green - perhaps, the Count's favorite Sesame Street moment? He also sang it in an earlier episode (just to be complete here)... but I still like this explanation. Jim Turnure, Potomac, US

2. It's a long shot, but if you rotate 187 by 90 degrees clockwise, it sort of resembles the Count's hair, eyes, and nose. Andrew Manktelow, Chicago

3. In Genesis chapter five 187 is the age at which Methuselah begets Lamech. This Lamech is associated with another Lamech in the previous chapter and in Masonic legend the children of this other Lamech are considered founders of both Freemasonry and Geometry. Freemasons are interested in Geometry and square numbers. I suspect that Count von Count was either a Freemason, or simply, as I do, had an interest in the subject. EP Lockstone, Moscow/London

4. 187 is full of things that make the Count happy. It has one, and as we know when he's alone he counts himself. One count! Eight is great and makes him shout hooray and he's madly in love with seven. Well, it's just so beautiful and seven-y! Honestly, the only thing better than 187, would be 187 squared. And there you have it. Mala Chakraborti, Stockholm, Sweden

5. 187 happens to be the name of a character who becomes a vampire in the 2004 movie, Dracula 3000. Although the movie received dismal reviews, it is probably (I have yet to verify this claim) the only version of the Dracula story, in any medium, which features a vampire with a number for its name. If this is so, it would be of great appeal to the Count. Brian Davies, Fremantle, Australia

6. I understand that on a Qwerty keyboard, there are 1,447 words in the English language that can be typed using only your left hand, but only 187 words that are typed using only your right hand. Billy Beetroot, Belfast

7. When squared, 34,969 becomes 1,222,830,961. If you break that number up into groups of 2 and add them, you get 12 + 22 + 83 + 09 + 61 = 187. Square 187, of course, and you get back to 34,969! Scott C, Las Vegas

8. I believe part of W 187th Street in Manhattan is known as Sesame Street. Megan, New York

9. Unoctseptium is the temporary name of the undiscovered element with the atomic number 187. Unoctseptium anagrams to "count up items". Steve Bachman, St Paul, Minnesota

10. The answer is that the Count only wants to trip up the adults and make them over-analyse the problem in a way that is amusing to the children. The Count was meant to relate to children, and perhaps he knew that the children would laugh when adults tried to fumble around with digit mining. The Count is clever and knows the innocent, and intuitive nature of child humour. The children know that the Count's favourite number is in fact EVERY number (he is the Count after all) and that any old number would have the same effect. Jarrod Money, Pineville, Kentucky, US

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19467564

Both advocates and critics of Mormonism have found made parallels to history, theology to support their arguments. One (or both) groups are finding nothing more than meaningless coincidences.

[inquiringmind]

Isn't this just another reminder that with "big data" comes meaningless correlations?

..With billions of lives and trillions (and more) numbers there will always be impressive (but meaningless) parallels between them:

C.S Lewis said that there was no such things as special providences.

He said that if there's a God, all things are equally Providential.

If Heavenly Father knows the end from the biginning, and it's all one eternal round to Him, why should there be meaningless correlations?

[canard78]

C.S Lewis said that there was no such things as special providences.

He said that if there's a God, all things are equally Providential.

If Heavenly Father knows the end from the biginning, and it's all one eternal round to Him, why should there be meaningless correlations?

There are 10 examples listed above of things that correlate between the number 187 and things that are meaningful to a muppet. I find nothing beyond coincidence in all of them.

If you look for parallels between two data sets you will always find them. If you discard the non-matches you could even reach a correlation of '1' when in reality, if all data points are included there would likely be a correlation of something like 0.1. Or maybe even negative correlation.

I remember people getting excited about the bible code in the 90s, but again it was meaningless hokum. No more than a computer generated cross-word in a book of 10s of 1000s of letters.

I think there are some amazing patterns in numbers. Some are included in the second BBC link. But given we seem to have trouble listening to God's word at its most explicit (keep the sabbath holy, thou shalt not covet) I don't see why he would need to hide messages like the number 76 being some sort of sign of Brigham prophetic calling.

Having said that, I love learning through metaphor and symbols. So if numbers/Gemateria provide metaphors for helping people feeling closer to God. There are plenty of man-made constructs that can still provide spiritual lessons. Just think of wonderful Elder Uchtdorf and his planes.

[Tacenda]

C.S Lewis said that there was no such things as special providences.

He said that if there's a God, all things are equally Providential.

If Heavenly Father knows the end from the biginning, and it's all one eternal round to Him, why should there be meaningless correlations?

Several Gods in one Universe? Or aliens, I watched the tail end of a show on the History Channel last night where they were talking about evidence of ET's. I'm sure everyone has seen it, if true it's pretty freaky. The part where it showed the markings on the earth being so large the you wouldn't see unless you were in the sky and at the time, aircraft wasn't invented.

[ERayR]

There are 10 examples listed above of things that correlate between the number 187 and things that are meaningful to a muppet. I find nothing beyond coincidence in all of them.

Then again one could explain any significant event in your life as a coincidence. When does coincidence end and significance begin?

[volgadon]

You don't mean that there's more than one Hebrew system, or more than one Greek system, do you?

There is more than one Hebrew system.

The Hebrew year of Joseph's birth, death, or what?

And what makes it interesting?

Oops, I left out the word birth, and I'll get to that.

[ERayR]

Several Gods in one Universe? Or aliens, I watched the tail end of a show on the History Channel last night where they were talking about evidence of ET's. I'm sure everyone has seen it, if true it's pretty freaky. The part where it showed the markings on the earth being so large the you wouldn't see unless you were in the sky and at the time, aircraft wasn't invented.

There is some interesting data presented but they do take some big leaps of logic in its presentation. Did you notice the most used phrase was: Ancient astronaut researchers believe . . . .?

Kind of like: Evolutionary researchers believe . . . There are a lot of things we can believe if we want to believe.

Edited April 14, 2013 by ERayR

[smac97]

I just found out that one number that can be associated with that word (thru Gematria) is 76, and Brigham Young was president of the Mormon Church (and, according to Mormons, the living prophet) at the time the first Mormon Temple was built.

Is God trying to tell us (thru Gematria), that the LDS Church is his Church?

I am not sure I see the significance of the number 76. Can you clarify what that significance is?

Also, Brigham Young was not the president of the Church at the time of the first Mormon temple. Joseph Smith was.

Finally, I do not think God has much or anything to say through gematria as He does through scripture, revelation through prayer and fasting, and through right conduct.

Thanks,

-Smac

[volgadon]

I do not recall whether he mentioned anything about Gematria or not but he did use a Kabbalistic number in a discussion of the creation and the age of the earth and the Book of Abraham. The number was 2,555,000,000. The same number is discussed briefly in the introduction of a book on Sepher Yetsirah by Aryeh Kaplan. Of interest is the happenstance that the Sepher Yetsirah is also said to have come down from Father Abraham. Other than that, I am aware of nothing relating to gematria in the teachings of Joseph Smith.

Not the same number exactly. Kaplan discussed 2,556,750,000 years. It is derived from a slightly different count than Phelps used. It is also worth noting that this is what Kaplan has interjected into the material using other sources, the Sefer Yetzirah itself doesn't mention it. Not only that, but in the text itself, the book does not claim to have been written by Abraham. I am perfectly aware that a majority of later commentators attribute it to the patriarch, but it is a misreading.

[pogi]

Then again one could explain any significant event in your life as a coincidence. When does coincidence end and significance begin?

Significance begins where darkness ends. I don't see any significance in gematria. If you don't already know the church is true or that God loves you, this is not going to help. If you do already know the church is true and that God loves you, this is still not going to help and inspire you to live a better life. I view gematria and numerology as fruitless attempts at proving spiritual truths through pseudo-scientific means. It attempts to convince others, or self, of spiritual truths (or untruths) using lifeless and cold hard data instead of faith, hope, and prayer in communion with the living spirit. It is cold and un-inspirational to me.

[MormonMason]

Not the same number exactly. Kaplan discussed 2,556,750,000 years. It is derived from a slightly different count than Phelps used. It is also worth noting that this is what Kaplan has interjected into the material using other sources, the Sefer Yetzirah itself doesn't mention it. Not only that, but in the text itself, the book does not claim to have been written by Abraham. I am perfectly aware that a majority of later commentators attribute it to the patriarch, but it is a misreading.

I am really wishing I was home with my books right about now. I understand that the book itself does not claim that it is written by Abraham. Unfortunately, I will have to capitulate for now but I could swear the edition I had placed the number at 2,555,000,000. Perhaps memory is a little cloudier than expected...

[blackstrap]

what's 6,750,000 years between friends?

[wenglund]

For those interested, there is a gematria caluclator (Hebrew, English, simple) HERE.

Phelps produced an Egyptian Counting document around the same time that he produced his Alphabet (latter designated as "Egyptian") and his Alphabet and Grammar of the Egyptian Language. There are some correlations between certain sounds and English explanations in the various documents. I am searching to see if there may be some gematria-like connection, but I haven't detected anything yet.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[ERayR]

Significance begins where darkness ends. I don't see any significance in gematria. If you don't already know the church is true or that God loves you, this is not going to help. If you do already know the church is true and that God loves you, this is still not going to help and inspire you to live a better life. I view gematria and numerology as fruitless attempts at proving spiritual truths through pseudo-scientific means. It attempts to convince others, or self, of spiritual truths (or untruths) using lifeless and cold hard data instead of faith, hope, and prayer in communion with the living spirit. It is cold and un-inspirational to me.

I agree with you I have never been impressed by numerology. On the other hand there are those that attribute every event as coincidence. I think that often they throw the baby out with the bath water when they use this approach.

[canard78]

Then again one could explain any significant event in your life as a coincidence. When does coincidence end and significance begin?

It's a very good question and one I cannot answer. I've spent a long time trying to work out why sometimes coincidences work in your favour and sometimes they don't. The coincidence that kills or the coincidence that gets you a good job. Why is one 'nature' and the other some angelic intervention?

[canard78]

I agree with you I have never been impressed by numerology. On the other hand there are those that attribute every event as coincidence. I think that often they throw the baby out with the bath water when they use this approach.

I agree. There are some sequences of events that seem to be far too remarkable to be considered a coincidence. As in pure chance. We had a sequence of events recently in our extended family that we're truly unable to explain away as pure chance. Events have aligned perfectly and at a time when it was most needed. I would say the hand of God is in that. But it's true that others would look and say: "lucky you, but only luck."