56 replies to this topic

[Brian 2.0]

Here's the quotes I was looking for:

From Robert Millet's book "When a Child Wanders."

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   "The Holy One of Israel, who is the Mediator of the covenant, has promised that when a seal is placed upon a father and mother--a seal that comes through faithfulness to their eternal covenants--their children will be bound to them forever.  Even if the children stray, the tentacles of the everlasting covenant will feel after them and they shall, either here or hereafter, return to the fold.   We do not fully understand all of the implications of this marvelous promise, but we trust in the ransoming and redeeming power of our Lord who is also our Savior."

Quoting Lorenzo Snow:

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   "God has fulfilled his promises to us."   President Lorenzo Snow explained, 'and our prospects are grand and glorious. Yes, in the next life we will have our wives, and our sons and daughters.  If we do not get them all at once, we will have them some time, for every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is the Christ.  You that are mourning about your children straying away will have your sons and daughters.  If you succeed in passing through these trials and afflictions and receive a resurrection, you will, by the power of the Priesthood, work and labor, as the Son of God has, until you get all your sons and daughters in the path of exaltation and glory.  This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning in yonder mountains.  Therefore, mourn not because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels.  In as much as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will have our posterity... God will accomplish his purposes in the salvation of His sons and daughters... " (Address delivered 6 Oct. 1893 in Collected Discourses, 3:36-65.)





Is this considered doctrine today?

[Brian 2.0]

This from Boyd K. Packer in 1992.  Boyd K. Packer, “Our Moral Environment,” Ensign, May 1992, 66


The measure of our success as parents, however, will not rest solely on how our children turn out. That judgment would be just only if we could raise our families in a perfectly moral environment, and that now is not possible.

It is not uncommon for responsible parents to lose one of their children, for a time, to influences over which they have no control. They agonize over rebellious sons or daughters. They are puzzled over why they are so helpless when they have tried so hard to do what they should.

It is my conviction that those wicked influences one day will be overruled.

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught a more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.” (Orson F. Whitney, in Conference Report, Apr. 1929, p. 110.)

We cannot overemphasize the value of temple marriage, the binding ties of the sealing ordinance, and the standards of worthiness required of them. When parents keep the covenants they have made at the altar of the temple, their children will be forever bound to them. President Brigham Young said:

“Let the father and mother, who are members of this Church and Kingdom, take a righteous course, and strive with all their might never to do a wrong, but to do good all their lives; if they have one child or one hundred children, if they conduct themselves towards them as they should, binding them to the Lord by their faith and prayers, I care not where those children go, they are bound up to their parents by an everlasting tie, and no power of earth or hell can separate them from their parents in eternity; they will return again to the fountain from whence they sprang.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols., 2:90–91.)

[Duncan]

Brian 2.0, on 24 April 2012 - 12:01 PM, said:

This from Boyd K. Packer in 1992.  Boyd K. Packer, “Our Moral Environment,” Ensign, May 1992, 66


The measure of our success as parents, however, will not rest solely on how our children turn out. That judgment would be just only if we could raise our families in a perfectly moral environment, and that now is not possible.

It is not uncommon for responsible parents to lose one of their children, for a time, to influences over which they have no control. They agonize over rebellious sons or daughters. They are puzzled over why they are so helpless when they have tried so hard to do what they should.

It is my conviction that those wicked influences one day will be overruled.

“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught a more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.” (Orson F. Whitney, in Conference Report, Apr. 1929, p. 110.)

We cannot overemphasize the value of temple marriage, the binding ties of the sealing ordinance, and the standards of worthiness required of them. When parents keep the covenants they have made at the altar of the temple, their children will be forever bound to them. President Brigham Young said:

“Let the father and mother, who are members of this Church and Kingdom, take a righteous course, and strive with all their might never to do a wrong, but to do good all their lives; if they have one child or one hundred children, if they conduct themselves towards them as they should, binding them to the Lord by their faith and prayers, I care not where those children go, they are bound up to their parents by an everlasting tie, and no power of earth or hell can separate them from their parents in eternity; they will return again to the fountain from whence they sprang.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols., 2:90–91.)

these quotations indicate that regardless of what a child does they will be exalted anyways so what is the point? should I drink, smoke, carouse all I want because my parents are pretty good and they've been sealed?

Edited by Duncan, 24 April 2012 - 12:19 PM.

[Spammer]

calmoriah, on 24 April 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

I think it will be more than just being able to have eternal increase in a Celestial marriage.  One needs to remember that the Kingdoms aren't just about location or what one is allowed to do.  It is also about the quality and attributes of the person there.  Someone who has chosen the Terrestrial Kingdom has accepted part of the Atonement, the forgiveness of his sins, but not all of the blessings the Lord is willing to share with him, he does not receive the full inheritance.  He has given his personal wants and desires a greater place in his life than the Will of the Lord.  He has chosen not to be come fully one with God and therefore not fully one with anyone else.  

All these choices mean that the deepness of any relationship that occurs on a Terrestrial level will be much more superficial/shallow than one that exists between Celestial beings, whether it's marriage or brothers or parent and child or some other family relationship (we are all family in the CK, the sealing provides for that).  Since we currently lack the ability to share at this level, we have no way to compare the difference but at the very least it will be like the difference between how two young children who see the world as revolving around them, who see the other as more of an extension of them than a separate being and thus are unable to see the other as they truly are and a relationship between a man and woman who have lovingly lived their lives together, given up and sacrificed for each other sometimes even their cherished dreams because they care more about the happiness of their loved one and the healthiness of their relationship, and who have reached the point where they can communicate with each other almost without words.  Perhaps it will even be as different to the degree that a relationship between two blind, deaf and mute individuals is different from the relationship between two people who can do all that plus read each other's mind.

If you don't want a relationship that is more than what it is in this life, than it would seem the Terrestrial would make a relatively good fit.  Relationships with no strings attached, but not much depth either....at least in comparison to what might be.  However, if you want a relationship like that which is promised by the Lord for his children where man and wife are truly one with each other and with the Lord with all that implies, then one will need to open oneself up to the Lord, humble oneself by accepting the Lord's Will as one's own (and since the Lord's Will is about giving joy to his children, the only sacrifice is putting one's pride on the altar, imo), and embrace the fullness of the Atonement.

All of this assumes that the character of relationships in the Celestial Kingdom will vary by virtue of who I'm sealed to.  Will I be sealed to my wife and kids in a unique way or will everyone in the CK be sealed to each other?  When all relationships are perfected in Christ, what will the phrase "I love my wife" even mean?  Will I love my wife more or differently than my love for others?  It seems if I love my wife more then my love is not yet perfect.

Regarding the prior point, it seems the better analogy is what happens to the feelings I have for my wife when the clause "til death do you part" is invoked?  Suppose a bureaucratic snafu is discovered in the paperwork for my marriage here on earth and all along our marriage was never valid?  Does our marital relationship and the attendent emotions depend on the perception that we're married or on the paperwork?  What happens to our relationship and the emotions when we learn the marriage was never valid in the first place?  Upon learning the fact, does the character of our feelings for each other magically change?    I say no way.  This clearly has implications for our relationship after death.

[calmoriah]

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It seems if I love my wife more then my love is not yet perfect.

Is it not possible to have perfect love, yet love people differently (because they are different)?  Is it not possible that there are different forms of perfect love and the perfect love one has for one's wife is different than the perfect love one has for one's children or one's friends?</div>
<div> </div>
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Upon learning the fact, does the character of our feelings for each other magically change? I say no way. This clearly has implications for our relationship after death.

I would tend to agree.  What is different is that a Terrestrial relationship has limits (just as we do in the here and now) on it that are not present in the Celestial Kingdom.  A Terrestrial relationship can only progress so far past the point of the relationship in mortality (and lacks some of the forms of interaction available here such as ongoing parenthood), a Celestial relationship has no such limits.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If one is satisfied with what one has here, feels this is enough and any more of a connection perhaps would be too much or some other reason, it is unlikely one would want the deeper, richer quality of a Celestial relationship.</div>
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[Brian 2.0]

Duncan, on 24 April 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

these quotations indicate that regardless of what a child does they will be exalted anyways so what is the point? should I drink, smoke, carouse all I want because my parents are pretty good and they've been sealed?

In Millet's book, he say he talked about these doctrines in private with some apostles and said, "Why don't we openly teach this continually, it would be a great help to parents of wayard children" and the response was that if they did it would give the youth ideas and they would have license to  go and sin.

I'm paraphrasing here of course.  I read the book on my mission, but don't have it any longer so I can't quote it directly .  I looked on Amazon and someone commented that the kindle version has been edited and there are missing parts.  Don't know if some stuff was taken out on the digital version.

But this doctrine still seems to be valid.

Edited by Brian 2.0, 24 April 2012 - 12:38 PM.

[Maidservant]

No one can be saved in their sins.  Everyone must BECOME (change).  But a parent who is sealed (whatever reality that represents) is NEVER going to stop doing what they can to redeem their child.  Which. . . I dunno . . . can be applied to heavenly Father and his relationship to all the world's children.  The LOVE will WIN.

[rodheadlee]

Spammer, on 24 April 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

So, I'll be able to hang out with my ex-wife, hold her hand, walk around heaven talking and laughing and reminiscing, enjoying each others' company - just as we did on earth - but I won't be a god and she won't be a goddess and we won't have "eternal increase".  Does that sum it up?

If you are in the Terrestial Kingdom or a lesser kingdom, you won't know her. You'll have different names and your memory cleaned, just like you dont' remember anything from the premortal life.

It'll take me awhile to find the scripture for this but it's in the Bible.

ok here is one: Isaiah 65:
17 ¶ For, behold, I ^acreate new ^bheavens and a ^cnew ^dearth: and the ^eformer shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Edited by rodheadlee, 24 April 2012 - 01:06 PM.

[David T]

Maidservant, on 24 April 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

No one can be saved in their sins.  Everyone must BECOME (change).  But a parent who is sealed (whatever reality that represents) is NEVER going to stop doing what they can to redeem their child.  Which. . . I dunno . . . can be applied to heavenly Father and his relationship to all the world's children.  The LOVE will WIN.

Especially when the Sealing of spouses is seen as symbolic between the relationship between Christ and His Bride (the Church), and the fruit that naturally arises from that unity.

[Duncan]

Maidservant, on 24 April 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

No one can be saved in their sins.  Everyone must BECOME (change).  But a parent who is sealed (whatever reality that represents) is NEVER going to stop doing what they can to redeem their child.  Which. . . I dunno . . . can be applied to heavenly Father and his relationship to all the world's children.  The LOVE will WIN.

does God still feel after 1/3 of the hosts of heaven who didn't get a body? at some point though if a child doesn't accept Christ then what more can you do for them even in the next life? being there won't change anything as per the story of the rich man and lazarus, if they weren't persuaded here then they won't be there

[Brian 2.0]

On a more personal level...

My parents believe that i am lost and deceived because I no longer believe in a lot of the doctrines of the church, even though I still attend.  My mother is heartbroken from it.  Very heartbroken.  I want to try and comfort her, and I feel that I can at least use some of the quotes I've used here to provide her some comfort for her.  We have a good relationship otherwise, she just thinks I'm lost forever and her eternal family is broken because I'm the only child that no longer believes.

[calmoriah]

rodheadlee, on 24 April 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

If you are in the Terrestial Kingdom or a lesser kingdom, you won't know her. You'll have different names and your memory cleaned, just like you dont' remember anything from the premortal life.

It'll take me awhile to find the scripture for this but it's in the Bible.

ok here is one: Isaiah 65:
17 ¶ For, behold, I ^acreate new ^bheavens and a ^cnew ^dearth: and the ^eformer shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Interesting idea, I've never heard that one before.  Not sure I agree with the interpretation though.

[calmoriah]

Brian 2.0, on 24 April 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

On a more personal level...

My parents believe that i am lost and deceived because I no longer believe in a lot of the doctrines of the church, even though I still attend.  My mother is heartbroken from it.  Very heartbroken.  I want to try and comfort her, and I feel that I can at least use some of the quotes I've used here to provide her some comfort for her.  We have a good relationship otherwise, she just thinks I'm lost forever and her eternal family is broken because I'm the only child that no longer believes.

I believe there are several articles on lds.org that speak to this and talk about how faithful parents need not fear to lose their loved ones.  I hope she is able to find peace and comfort for this subject and you as well.  It would be hard to think a child is lost and hard for that child to know his parent thinks about him that way.

Edited by calmoriah, 24 April 2012 - 01:21 PM.

[Cobalt-70]

Log, on 24 April 2012 - 12:12 AM, said:

If we may picture our celestialized, sealed family as a tree, with God as the trunk and the rest of us as branches of varying thickness, I think that's a pretty good analogy to the way things will probably be.  I think if we're not sealed to someone, they'll be on a different part of the tree, but we'll all still be unified, and whole.

The Celestrial Tree doctrine was widely taught in the 19th century (except that "God" was Adam). This was why Mormon men had themselves sealed to high priesthood authorities rather than their own fathers (so that they would be closer to the "trunk" of the tree. But this so-called "Law of Adoption" was suspended in 1894 (and the Adam-God doctrine before that), and I'm not certain that this doctrine has survived to the 21st century.

My guess is that most Mormons would consider that all the "Children of Christ" are of equal stature in the upper degree of the Celestial kingdom. Does anybody really believe that a god in the Celestial kingdom is subordinate his father (or the person other than his father to whom he is sealed)? That would make Joseph Smith subordinate to his father, and doubly subordinate to his grandfather, etc.

Edited by Cobalt-70, 24 April 2012 - 01:53 PM.

[rodheadlee]

calmoriah, on 24 April 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

Interesting idea, I've never heard that one before.  Not sure I agree with the interpretation though.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more ^adeath, neither ^bsorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more ^cpain: for the former things are passed away.


I think it would be hard not to have sorrow over family members that went to lesser kingdoms or even to the outer darkness.  So I think we will remember them no more.

[Duncan]

rodheadlee, on 24 April 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more ^adeath, neither ^bsorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more ^cpain: for the former things are passed away.


I think it would be hard not to have sorrow over family members that went to lesser kingdoms or even to the outer darkness.  So I think we will remember them no more.

I think that that is taking a very liberal interpretation of that verse but you may be right? who knows!

[Cobalt-70]

Does anybody know whether parent-child sealings were conducted during the life of Joseph Smith? I haven't been able to find a reference to such sealings before Brigham Young instituted the practice of "adoption" in the Nauvoo Temple.

Joseph Smith did teach a different type of "sealing" between children and their ancestors, which was what he said Elijah brought to the Kirtland temple. This "sealing" has to do with baptism for the dead. It is the idea that what one does on the earth has an eternal effect in heaven. By doing baptisms for one's ancestors, those ancestors are "sealed" in heaven. See D&C 128:14, 127:7. The idea of husband-wife "sealings" was contemporary to Smith, because they were "sealed" into the New and Everlasting Covenant. But is there any evidence that the parent-child or adoptive "sealing" originated with Joseph Smith?

[seriously honestly]

rodheadlee, on 24 April 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

If you are in the Terrestial Kingdom or a lesser kingdom, you won't know her. You'll have different names and your memory cleaned, just like you dont' remember anything from the premortal life.

It'll take me awhile to find the scripture for this but it's in the Bible.

ok here is one: Isaiah 65:
17 ¶ For, behold, I ^acreate new ^bheavens and a ^cnew ^dearth: and the ^eformer shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

That doesn't mention anything about not knowing each other anymore in the next life, just that earth--as we know it--will not be remembered.

[calmoriah]

rodheadlee, on 24 April 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more ^adeath, neither ^bsorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more ^cpain: for the former things are passed away.


I think it would be hard not to have sorrow over family members that went to lesser kingdoms or even to the outer darkness.  So I think we will remember them no more.

I don't see how God could be omniscient if he lacked knowledge of those who lived in his kingdoms and if we are truly one with him in the CK, how could we lack this knowledge as well?

If we are separated from our loved ones, then I think we will be able to feel joy for them in their happiness that they have found because we trust in the Lord this judgment for them is the best of the best that could ever be for them according to the pure desires of their hearts (the impure ones having been purged).

I don't see everyone as desiring the same thing, some may even desire to be alone throughout eternity as hard as that may seem to some of us (I can relate at times, I enjoy very much being alone a good portion of my life, but wouldn't want it 24/7).  A loving parent would never want a child to be coerced into doing something he did not enjoy for eternity.

Edited by calmoriah, 24 April 2012 - 03:29 PM.

[rodheadlee]

calmoriah, on 24 April 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

I don't see how God could be omniscient if he lacked knowledge of those who lived in his kingdoms and if we are truly one with him in the CK, how could we lack this knowledge as well?

If we are separated from our loved ones, then I think we will be able to feel joy for them in their happiness that they have found because we trust in the Lord this judgment for them is the best of the best that could ever be for them according to the pure desires of their hearts (the impure ones having been purged).

I don't see everyone as desiring the same thing, some may even desire to be alone throughout eternity as hard as that may seem to some of us (I can relate at times, I enjoy very much being alone a good portion of my life, but wouldn't want it 24/7).  A loving parent would never want a child to be coerced into doing something he did not enjoy for eternity.

What about those in the Terrestial Kingdom, with family in the Lesser Kingdoms?

I was taught this back in my EV days so I'm not married to the idea. But the idea that Spammer was putting across was why bother to get sealed if he can have a relationship with his wife/ex wife in the Terrestial Kingdom.