22 replies to this topic

[Bill Hamblin]

A common belief espoused by many critics is that there were no biblical endowment-like secret traditions or rituals.  Assuming (perhaps over optimistically) no major meltdowns or diversions, I'll explore some of the implications of that claim here.  

On my web page I've posted a an examination of "The Endowment as Participation in the Sôd of YHWH."  It can be read at this link:

Endowment and Sod

Discussion can occur on this forum.

[Mark Beesley]

Bill Hamblin, on 03 June 2011 - 04:41 PM, said:

A common belief espoused by many critics is that there were no biblical endowment-like secret traditions or rituals.  Assuming (perhaps over optimistically) no major meltdowns or diversions, I'll explore some of the implications of that claim here.  

On my web page I've posted a an examination of "The Endowment as Participation in the Sôd of YHWH."  It can be read at this link:

Endowment and Sod

Discussion can occur on this forum.

Could be an interesting discussion, or a very short one.

If a certain culture, say, the Jews, had secret endowment-like rituals, how would we know?  If they were really secret, it is unlikely they would be written down for broad dissemination--or at least as broad as one might expect for a culture where most were not trained in letters, and the written word was rather tediously preserved. I tried to point this out to some other Christian brothers on a concerned Board but I must not have explained it very well.  Anyway, I'll be interested to read your article.

[Ron Beron]

Bill Hamblin, on 03 June 2011 - 04:41 PM, said:

A common belief espoused by many critics is that there were no biblical endowment-like secret traditions or rituals.  Assuming (perhaps over optimistically) no major meltdowns or diversions, I'll explore some of the implications of that claim here.  

On my web page I've posted a an examination of "The Endowment as Participation in the Sôd of YHWH."  It can be read at this link:

Endowment and Sod

Discussion can occur on this forum.

Interesting post.  The examples you listed seem to be individual cases of ascent motifs of a highly personal nature not something that would be systematic of an organized "endowment" such as found in our temples, but more akin to a Sacred Grove simulation where God connects one on one in a shamanistic manner.  Two, while I would heartfully agree that the endowment is akin to the sod it does not necessarily depend on the LDS Temple to complete, but rather could stand separately.

[Bill Hamblin]

A survey of the major texts of ancient Jewish and Christian ascent literature as background to the LDS endowment.

Esoterica 7, Celestial Ascent

[Ron Beron]

Bill Hamblin, on 04 June 2011 - 10:58 PM, said:

A survey of the major texts of ancient Jewish and Christian ascent literature as background to the LDS endowment.

Esoterica 7, Celestial Ascent

An answer for everything, eh?  It reminds me of your class on ascent motifs.  I didn't attend, but I did listen via the internet.  I'll read this new one.

[Ron Beron]

Bill Hamblin, on 04 June 2011 - 10:58 PM, said:

A survey of the major texts of ancient Jewish and Christian ascent literature as background to the LDS endowment.

Esoterica 7, Celestial Ascent

A very interesting summation of the literature that is out there, but I do have a couple of questions and observations.  One, you make the comment, "Furthermore, a careful analysis of the texts of all five of these traditions demonstrates that the temple was a crucial part of the ascent mythos, either with the the temple as the place from which the ascent occurs, or with the celestial temple as the goal of the ascent, or both."
and later that there is "...an intimate connection between celestial ascent and temple."    I would have no disagreement with this except that it is not always the rule.  I refer specifically to the theophonies of Abraham, Moses, Jacob or to the countless shamanistic ascents where a temple is not involved (although an ascent to a higher place and a physical transformation takes place.)  In these cases the temple is non-existent, while an audience with the divine is present and radically transforming.  
You also make the comment  "the LDS temple endowment is an ascent ritual and drama, with the goal of the covenanter to ritually pass into the presence of God in the celestial realm."  In these cases doesn't temple serve primarily as a symbolic artifact for the actual ascent.  The true ascent can be achieved without an appeal to the temple or to its operation again considering the multiple accounts of primitive (and modern) shamans journeys into the heavens.  Conversely, one might attend the temple for decades and not have a ascent theophony calling into question the petitioners preparation and mindset.

[urroner]

Is there any differences between a temple and a "Holy of Holies?"

[Bill Hamblin]

Ron Beron, on 05 June 2011 - 12:36 PM, said:

A very interesting summation of the literature that is out there, but I do have a couple of questions and observations.  One, you make the comment, "Furthermore, a careful analysis of the texts of all five of these traditions demonstrates that the temple was a crucial part of the ascent mythos, either with the the temple as the place from which the ascent occurs, or with the celestial temple as the goal of the ascent, or both."
and later that there is "...an intimate connection between celestial ascent and temple."    I would have no disagreement with this except that it is not always the rule.  I refer specifically to the theophonies of Abraham, Moses, Jacob or to the countless shamanistic ascents where a temple is not involved (although an ascent to a higher place and a physical transformation takes place.)  In these cases the temple is non-existent, while an audience with the divine is present and radically transforming.  
You also make the comment  "the LDS temple endowment is an ascent ritual and drama, with the goal of the covenanter to ritually pass into the presence of God in the celestial realm."  In these cases doesn't temple serve primarily as a symbolic artifact for the actual ascent.  The true ascent can be achieved without an appeal to the temple or to its operation again considering the multiple accounts of primitive (and modern) shamans journeys into the heavens.  Conversely, one might attend the temple for decades and not have a ascent theophony calling into question the petitioners preparation and mindset.

I agree.

1- Not all ascent texts are temple-related.  However many, if not most, are.  (Also, like you said, celestial ascent mythos is much broader than just the Jewish and Christian traditions.)  

2- The LDS temple is not itself a celestial ascent, but a ritual dramatic presentation of the mythos of celestial ascent.

[Bill Hamblin]

urroner, on 05 June 2011 - 01:47 PM, said:

Is there any differences between a temple and a "Holy of Holies?"

There were two rooms in the Israelite temple, the outer chamber is theqōdesh ("holy" [place]) and the smaller, inner chamber, the qōdesh ha-qādāšîm, literally, the "holy of the holies."  This is an idiom meaning "most holy" [place].  It basically means the holiness of the inner room is greater than the holiness of the outer room.

[urroner]

Bill Hamblin, on 05 June 2011 - 02:12 PM, said:

There were two rooms in the Israelite temple, the outer chamber is theqōdesh ("holy" [place]) and the smaller, inner chamber, the qōdesh ha-qādāšîm, literally, the "holy of the holies."  This is an idiom meaning "most holy" [place].  It basically means the holiness of the inner room is greater than the holiness of the outer room.

Can a "Holy of Holies" exist outside of a physical temple here on Earth?

[Bill Hamblin]

urroner, on 05 June 2011 - 02:19 PM, said:

Can a "Holy of Holies" exist outside of a physical temple here on Earth?

Technically, it is the Most Holy Place because of the presence of God there.  So, wherever God is could be thought of as the Most Holy Place.

[Ron Beron]

Bill Hamblin, on 05 June 2011 - 02:05 PM, said:

I agree.

1- Not all ascent texts are temple-related.  However many, if not most, are.  (Also, like you said, celestial ascent mythos is much broader than just the Jewish and Christian traditions.)  

2- The LDS temple is not itself a celestial ascent, but a ritual dramatic presentation of the mythos of celestial ascent.

What I have noticed is that this type of understanding is completely nonexistent in today's world.  We would rather worry about "rapture" nonsense than ascension at-one-ment.

[Bill Hamblin]

For those interested I have also posted a number of background conceptual items about esoterica.

Esoterica 1: The Idea of Esoterica in the Bible
http://hamblinofjeru...a-in-the-bible/

Esoterica 2: Writings and Books as Esoterica
My link

Esoterica 3: The Shifting Boundaries of Esoterica
My link

Esoterica 4: Esoteric vs. Esotericizing
My link

Esoterica 5: Esoterica and Oral Tradition
My link

[Log]

Ron Beron, on 05 June 2011 - 12:36 PM, said:

Conversely, one might attend the temple for decades and not have a ascent theophony calling into question the petitioners preparation and mindset.

Ouch.  I take it you have had such a theophany?

[Ron Beron]

Log, on 06 June 2011 - 07:26 PM, said:

Ouch.  I take it you have had such a theophany?

Hardly, but many outside of the church notably shamans claim to have them on a regular basis.  My point is that visions of deity do not need the temple per se to ascend to the celestial.  Mohammed did it on the back of a horse.  (tongue in cheek)

[Bill Hamblin]

Ron Beron, on 07 June 2011 - 12:30 AM, said:

Hardly, but many outside of the church notably shamans claim to have them on a regular basis.  My point is that visions of deity do not need the temple per se to ascend to the celestial.  Mohammed did it on the back of a horse.  (tongue in cheek)

Actually, Muhammad went from Mecca to the Temple Mount from which he ascended, indicating the importance of the Temple in the mythos.

[Pa Pa]

Bill Hamblin, on 03 June 2011 - 04:41 PM, said:

A common belief espoused by many critics is that there were no biblical endowment-like secret traditions or rituals.  Assuming (perhaps over optimistically) no major meltdowns or diversions, I'll explore some of the implications of that claim here.  

On my web page I've posted a an examination of "The Endowment as Participation in the Sôd of YHWH."  It can be read at this link:

Endowment and Sod

Discussion can occur on this forum.

So sacred and so secret when Paul tried to get two Gentiles in it almost cost him his life; is this correct?

[David T]

Pa Pa, on 08 June 2011 - 08:33 AM, said:

So sacred and so secret when Paul tried to get two Gentiles in it almost cost him his life; is this correct?

If I remember correctly, in the context of Acts as it's presented, that was a false and unsubstantiated claim (that Paul tried to bring in Gentiles into the non-gentile portion of the Temple) that was made against him to show that he polluted a Holy Place (not revealed esoterica).

Acts 21:28-29

28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
29 (For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)

Edited by nackhadlow, 08 June 2011 - 10:46 AM.

[Pa Pa]

nackhadlow, on 08 June 2011 - 10:40 AM, said:

If I remember correctly, in the context of Acts as it's presented, that was a false and unsubstantiated claim (that Paul tried to bring in Gentiles into the non-gentile portion of the Temple) that was made against him to show that he polluted a Holy Place (not revealed esoterica).

Acts 21:28-29

28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
29 (For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)

So the rumor almost cost him his life. Even more to the point. Thanks.

[volgadon]

urroner, on 05 June 2011 - 02:19 PM, said:

Can a "Holy of Holies" exist outside of a physical temple here on Earth?

Considering the "celestial" and "earthly" temples, then yes. The pargod is the curtain or veil separating God from other angels.