We discussed the issue for a few minutes, and ultimately I really just had to blatently say, "For gays and lesbians who have already accepted their gayness, and especially for those that are within relationships and have formed families of their own, the LDS message really doesn't have anything positive to attract or encourage them to join. Doing so would mean leaving whatever loving relationship they are in (for those that are in a relationship), and having to undue the tremendously challenging process of having to come to terms with one's homosexual orientation in a very heterocentric culture." In short, I really don't think Mormonism has much to offer LGBT individuals that accept their sexuality as something that is as positive and potentially 'as-good' as any heteroesexual's sexual orientation.
You are right. My daughter who maintains a strong belief in the church avoids going because she understands the dilemma. It's not so much that she accepts her position "positively" but that she accepts that she will not have the companionship she now has if she were to return to church. The most interesting thing is that they have attended church on occasion and as far as her companion's son is concerned it's the right church. But in order to be part of the church daughter and companion would have to make a very difficult choice, which neither one is ready to do.
Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
I've pretty much had to tell every teenager I've known in my life (including myself) the same words "it does get better". It is part of the human condition to suffer, though each has their own unique situation. From what I've seen the severity of the situation is highly dependent on how the individual reacts, almost more so than the actual circumstances. Some of the most hopeless cases had great lives from all appearances and what they were upset about would seem trivial to most others (such as those in the video who were living in fear). I am saying this not to trivialize what the individuals who see themselves as gay have gone through in their lives or the happiness they have achieved, just pointing out this is a message that we must find a way to tailor to each individual's needs as each is unique; the only way I see doing that is to do so by seeking the Lord's help and trusting in him to inspire us to say what that person needs....even if it goes against what we think should be said.
We can offer the same message of hope to everyone---seek out the Lord because he loves and accepts you as you are right now first and foremost. He has glorious blessings to give us if we are willing to accept them from him, even the worst sinner among us (the Telestial world is a world of glory after all, we need to remember that). Once we have reached the point of knowing we are children of God who he loves unconditionally as any strong, perfect parent would, then we will also realize that any changes he asks of us---and since we are all sinners, we all are being asked to change, often in what appears to be fundamental ways---is for our own good; he is not going to force us to change when we don't really want to, but will be there to smooth our path to eternal life with him if we allow him that place in our lives. He does not ask of us more than we can bear, so there is no reason to fear changing; if there is fear, then that is a good place to start examining where we have placed distance between us and the Lord. And even if that path is a long one, it can be a joyful one if we allow the Lord to be our companion.
God knows who we truly are and can become, if we trust in him he can lead us to that joyful state, something that is even better than the best this world can offer. If someone doesn't desire to seek the Lord within the structure of the LDS faith, they can still achieve much outside if they make the choice to seek the Lord sincerely and earnestly. And if they do this, they don't have to wait until the next life for life itself to become better though individual hardships still remain and have huge impacts on us.
I think that message is one all missionaries should be sharing if they find someone resistant to becoming part of the LDS community....they need to reinforce that the search for truth and the peace of the Lord can continue whatever place we've chosen to wander in. If someone is happy and satisfied with where they are, then encourage them to seek the Lord out to make it better; don't assume that what we have is all he is wants to give us or all we deserve. It is not a sign of ingratitude to want more blessings from the Lord, but it is a sign of trust and love in the Lord and ultimately a way for us to become one with him as we grow in understanding that blessings are a way for the Lord to be in our lives in the here and now, we don't have to wait until the next life to have him by our side, to walk with him though we may be stumbling on our side and to listen to his voice as he listens to us with complete understanding even when we do not understand what we are really saying ourselves.
This is the message we can share with everyone:
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1 Cor 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
And the rest of the chapter is how we can go about anticipating that time of oneness with the Lord.
Edited by calmoriah, 23 November 2010 - 02:33 PM.
When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith
This thought just came to me as I was pondering the questionI presented in the OP.
We can point them towards the example of the Lord Jesus Christ in a sacred and very real way.
Christ is the role model we should be pointing everyone to and since we know that he suffered all things, then there's likely a way we can manage to do so for each individual's needs.
Being able to find a successful way to do so, one that captures the mental and emotional imagination, would be very powerful in my view.
When you climb up a ladder, you...begin at the bottom...ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top...so it is with the principles of the Gospel--you must begin with the first...go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world. Joseph Smith
I haven't seen many topics exploring how we could effectively and lovingly present the message of the Gospel to address their specific concerns, doubts, despair, and very real feelings, in such a way that would bring comfort, and hope, a real assurance that, indeed, "It Gets Better".
To me, the gospel message of hope is the same regardless of the spiritual challenges one faces. So, the gospel message should be the same regardless of whether a person is gay or straight.
Part of the problem, as I see it, is society focusing on and giving way too much attention to homosexuality, and mistakenly defining people by that particular dysfunction, which tends to foment feelings of dispair and such. I think it best, then, to treat people with homosexual proclivities just like eveeryone else who has spiritual problems.
For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted. (Helaman 5:2}
To me, the gospel message of hope is the same regardless of the spiritual challenges one faces. So, the gospel message should be the same regardless of whether a person is gay or staight.
The gospel of Salvation, I agree.
However, presenting the message of Exaltation, as presented in the Plan of Salvation, is where the difficulty arises.
Edited by nackhadlow, 23 November 2010 - 02:55 PM.
Part of the problem, as I see it, is society focusing on and giving way too much attention to homosexuality, and mistakenly defining people by that particular dysfunction, which tends to foment feelings of dispair and such. I think it best, then, to treat people with homosexual proclivities just like eveeryone else who has spiritual problems.
Thanks, -Wade Englund-
If you message to them is premised on the assumption that they are dysfunctional, then don't be surprised if the message is not warmly received.
Again, a message of hope, to be effective, needs to come from an out of the closet gay mormon who is loved, accepted and admired by his community.
Do you know anyone that fits that description Wade?
For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted. (Helaman 5:2}
If you message to them is premised on the assumption that they are dysfunctional, then don't be surprised if the message is not warmly received.
I expect as much from any individual or group who may be in denial about their dysfunction.
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Again, a message of hope, to be effective, needs to come from an out of the closet gay mormon who is loved, accepted and admired by his community.
No, it really doesn't. For the message of hope to be effective mearly requires humility, openness to the Spirit, and a desire to do God's will, on the part of those lacking hope--be they homosexuals, or adulterers, or those addicted to pornography, etc..
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Do you know anyone that fits that description Wade?
For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted. (Helaman 5:2}
Missionaries come and tell you that God's plan for your life is to live eternally in an Eternal Gay relationship.
That even though the idea may be repugnant to you now, don't worry, if you're faithful, and celibate, in the end, in the eternities, God can make you gay (your true nature), and want to enjoy an eternal union with another man.
That eventually, you will not be attracted to women, and the relationship with your wife that you currently have is meaningless in the eternal sphere, and is viewed as repugnant by God.
To achieve this wonderful plan of God, you must stop having sexual relations with your wife, and move out. You must repent of this relationship.
If you pray to God, you can know that this is true.
This is the exact equivalent of the message as they hear it. You can't tell me that it doesn't create difficulties.
It adds additional difficulty if the gay couple has adopted children - what is understood and lived as a family unit would of necessity need to be broken first to establish an approved Eternal Family.
To say this is no different than sharing the message to anyone in any other situation doesn't truly grasp the situation, or acknowledge the reality of homosexual feelings and emotions. It is different and more then just a temptation. It truly is a different orientation of life.
Edited by nackhadlow, 23 November 2010 - 03:40 PM.
I expect as much from any individual or group who may be in denial about their dysfunction.
The message presented in the video is not to give up because you can find love, affection, friendship, success, and respect without having to hide or trying to deny who you are.
Your message is yes its true, you are dysfunctional, but we will tolerate you as a second class member of the LDS Church so long as you commit to living a loveless, celibate life.
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No, it really doesn't.
Umh, yes it really does. If the goal is to give them hope, that life will get better, and you can't give present a real role model, ie someone that is LDS, gay and has the respect, love and affection of his lds community to back up your claim, you promise has no credibility.
My advise to a gay LDS man to leave the LDS Church or stay in the closet. How about you?
If you message to them is premised on the assumption that they are dysfunctional, then don't be surprised if the message is not warmly received.
Again, a message of hope, to be effective, needs to come from an out of the closet gay mormon who is loved, accepted and admired by his community.
Do you know anyone that fits that description Wade?
How about Ty Mansfield?
There are many others like him who are choosing to stay in the LDS Church - but they do not want to live their lives in the spotlight and endure the wrath from the gay community.
They are just trying their best to do what they know is true. Some are married and some are single.
I reject the notion that a person in the LDS Church with same-gender attractions must be forever miserable. With Heavenly Father's help, they can be happy and can successfully manage their attractions. Satan is the one who would have us believe otherwise.
The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it. -Joseph Smith
This is the exact equivalent of the message as they hear it. You can't tell me that it doesn't create difficulties.
Okay...so the LDS notion of exaltation may create difficulties for someone who finds that notion to be repugnant.
I am not sure how that somehow negates my point that the LDS message of hope ought to be the same regardless of people's specific spiritual challenges. The message is unavoidably ineffectual to those who consider good to be repugnant and evil to be good, whether they are gay or straight or whatever. It is only effectual to those who desire exaltation as we LDS believe and are willing to do what it takes to achieve it.
For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted. (Helaman 5:2}
This was a recent message of hope created by staff members of Pixar.
How could we, as members of the Church of Jesus Christ, present the Gospel to the same individuals to whom this message is directed, to address these same very real feelings of despair, loneliness, fear, lack of self worth? How can we present the message to help them feel at least the same freedom, joy, and hope expressed by those who are delivering the message?
If you were a missionary receiving a referral for an individual to whom this video was directed, knowing what you know by watching the video, what would be your loving approach to expressing the hope and joy of the Restored Gospel?
There's plenty of threads discussing how we should feel about such individuals, and judging their motives. But I haven't seen many topics exploring how we could effectively and lovingly present the message of the Gospel to address their specific concerns, doubts, despair, and very real feelings, in such a way that would bring comfort, and hope, a real assurance that, indeed, "It Gets Better".
Can you paraphrase what they are saying, in text, for those who can't hear the message in sound?
By the look of them, without hearing what they are saying, combined with the feeling I have of what they are talking about, it looks to me like they're a bunch of homosexuals who are trying to make other homosexuals feel better about homosexuality, and if that's what they're trying to get other people to feel better about, try asking yourself why that's something they're trying to do in the first place.
Homosexuality isn't something that gets better, or even good, just by thinking it is, and the fact that some people try to talk others into believing it is is something I think is really weird.
I desire to show you who I am by showing you who I follow.
He is my Lord. He is my Life. He is all I desire to be.
Speaking against the NATURE of sin: To the last I grapple with thee,
From Hell's Heart I stab thee; For Hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee...
The message presented in the video is not to give up because you can find love, affection, friendship, success, and respect without having to hide or trying to deny who you are.
Your message is yes its true, you are dysfunctional, but we will tolerate you as a second class member of the LDS Church so long as you commit to living a loveless, celibate life.
No, that is not my message. Please don't put words into my mouth.
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Umh, yes it really does. If the goal is to give them hope, that life will get better, and you can't give present a real role model, ie someone that is LDS, gay and has the respect, love and affection of his lds community to back up your claim, you promise has no credibility.
That may be how you, as a non-LDS, see the goal. But, to me, the goal isn't just hope, per se. Rather, it is the hope of becoming like Christ. All that is needed to credibilize that hope, is Christ, and the witness of the Spirit.
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My advise to a gay LDS man to leave the LDS Church or stay in the closet. How about you?
My advise is the same to anyone with spiritual challenges and proclivities that are contrary to the will of God and Godliness (as we LDS believe), is to repent where needed and to seek to become like Christ.
For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted. (Helaman 5:2}
Missionaries come and tell you that God's plan for your life is to live eternally in an Eternal Gay relationship.
That even though the idea may be repugnant to you now, don't worry, if you're faithful, and celibate, in the end, in the eternities, God can make you gay (your true nature), and want to enjoy an eternal union with another man.
That eventually, you will not be attracted to women, and the relationship with your wife that you currently have is meaningless in the eternal sphere, and is viewed as repugnant by God.
To achieve this wonderful plan of God, you must stop having sexual relations with your wife, and move out. You must repent of this relationship.
If you pray to God, you can know that this is true.
This is the exact equivalent of the message as they hear it. You can't tell me that it doesn't create difficulties.
The only difficulty is in not recognizing the difference between good and evil.
Homosexuality = evil, plain and simple.
The opposite of that (heterosexuality), however, is NOT evil, plain and simple.
People can cry all they want to about how it's not fair (they think) that heterosexuality is good and homosexuality is evil, but that's just the way it is, in reality.
Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, will ever be able to make homosexuality into something that is good. It's impossible, because it is not good. It is actually evil, and people trying to make people feel good about it are just wasting their time trying to do that.
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It adds additional difficulty if the gay couple has adopted children - what is understood and lived as a family unit would of necessity need to be broken first to establish an approved Eternal Family.
When repenting of evil, all evil must be abandoned. You don't get to keep a few evil habits that you don't want to get rid of.
Your evil NATURE is what you have to get rid of if you ever hope to be the best you can be as a good person.
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To say this is no different than sharing the message to anyone in any other situation doesn't truly grasp the situation, or acknowledge the reality of homosexual feelings and emotions. It is different and more then just a temptation. It truly is a different orientation of life.
Yes, it truly is, and people who really want to be a good person have to be willing to give up anything that is not good to be able to make it.
Edited by Ahab, 23 November 2010 - 04:52 PM.
I desire to show you who I am by showing you who I follow.
He is my Lord. He is my Life. He is all I desire to be.
Speaking against the NATURE of sin: To the last I grapple with thee,
From Hell's Heart I stab thee; For Hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee...
People can cry all they want to about how it's not fair (they think) that heterosexuality is good and homosexuality is evil, but that's just the way it is, in reality.
Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, will ever be able to make homosexuality into something that is good. It's impossible, because it is not good. It is actually evil, and people trying to make people feel good about it are just wasting their time trying to do that.
When repenting of evil, all evil must be abandoned. You don't get to keep a few evil habits that you don't want to get rid of.
Your evil NATURE is what you have to get rid of if you ever hope to be the best you can be as a good person.
Yes, it truly is, and people who really want to be a good person have to be willing to give up anything that is not good to be able to make it.
The point of this thread wasn't whether the behavior or inclinations were right or wrong.
It's not about being judgmental.
The point of the thread was how you share the message of hope with gays and lesbians in love.
All other Gospel ideals concerning salvation are in fact universal, and can be things individuals aspire to. Everyone wants to be better, clean, pure, happy.
However, there are individuals who, based on their depeest, most innermost emotions, do not want what the Plan of Salvation is offering.
The question was, how would you feel if you were told that God's deepest desire for you was to give up your heterosexual lifestyle, and all that is included with it?
It's far too easy to dismiss the idea, and say they need to just deal with it, or go to hell.
It's much harder to put oneself in their shoes, and try to feel what they feel, understand how they understand. It a sign of Christ-like compassion to try to understand, and present the m essage in such a way as they will iunderstand, and have a desire to want what God wants.
the question is, how do you do that?
To understand, you have to re-frame the question in a way relevant to you. What would need to happen for you to give up your heterosexual lifetyle, marriage, etc, if someone was telling you that was the Will of God? What would make you even want to ask God about it?
What if the very idea of God's Plan for your life, is, at your emotional core, emotionally repugnant to you?
Edited by nackhadlow, 23 November 2010 - 04:56 PM.
That's only plain and simple for someone who has heterosexual tendencies as part of their nature.
True, and for those who don't it basically boils down to trying to teach them how to be good since their nature is to think evil is good, when in truth it isn't.
I desire to show you who I am by showing you who I follow.
He is my Lord. He is my Life. He is all I desire to be.
Speaking against the NATURE of sin: To the last I grapple with thee,
From Hell's Heart I stab thee; For Hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee...
The question was, how would you feel if you were told that God's deepest desire for you was to give up your heterosexual lifestyle, and all that is included with it?
I'd be indignant that anyone was suggesting God condoned homosexuality and I'd tell them to get their act straight.
God doesn't want ANYONE to give up their heterosexual lifestyle, because that's the lifestyle everyone is supposed to have, just as it is God's lifestyle.
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It's far too easy to dismiss the idea, and say they need to just deal with it, or go to hell.
I wouldn't word it in exactly that way, but that's the basic message I would want to convey.
There are certain things which are good... and then on the opposite end of the spectrum, there are also certain things which are evil.
Homosexuality is one of those things which is evil, plain and simple, and if anyone doesn't already know that, by nature, they simply need to be told that it is.
The idea that we should consider everything to be good, just because some people may think it is good, is an idea that needs to be tossed out like garbage.
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It's much harder to put oneself in their shoes, and try to feel what they feel, understand how they understand. It a sign of Christ-like compassion to try to understand, and present the message in such a way as they will understand, and have a desire to want what God wants.
the question is, how do you do that?
By simply teaching them the concept that there are certain things which are evil, and other certain things which are good, and that the way to know what is good is to ask God and have God tell them what is good.
Of course, in such an approach, there is the risk that Satan may speak up while claiming that he is God, such that they get the wrong impression about what is good from the wrong kind of person, but when anyone doubts or wants to know what is really good in this world they simply need to ask God with faith that he will answer them and teach them all about what is good.
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To understand, you have to re-frame the question in a way relevant to you. What would need to happen for you to give up your heterosexual lifetyle, marriage, etc, if someone was telling you that was the Will of God? What would make you even want to ask God about it?
I'd want to ask God about it because I'd want to find out what really is good, and since God is the one who knows all about what is good, I would know there would be no better person to ask.
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What if the very idea of God's Plan for your life, is, at your emotional core, emotionally repugnant to you?
Then I'd expect to be happy in Hell with Satan, which is where I would (supposedly) be going.
I desire to show you who I am by showing you who I follow.
He is my Lord. He is my Life. He is all I desire to be.
Speaking against the NATURE of sin: To the last I grapple with thee,
From Hell's Heart I stab thee; For Hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee...
I'd be indignant that anyone was suggesting God condoned homosexuality and I'd tell them to get their act straight.
God doesn't want ANYONE to give up their heterosexual lifestyle, because that's the lifestyle everyone is supposed to have, just as it is God's lifestyle.
That's easy for a heterosexual man to say.
I didn't say I disagree with you. I am , however, suggesting you try to understand the struggle others have that you don't. If we're not able to do this, we're no better than the Zoramites at their Rameumptom, thanking God for making us naturally more righteous and right than everyone who disagrees.
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I wouldn't word it in exactly that way, but that's the basic message I would want to convey.
That's unfortunate.
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There are certain things which are good... and then on the opposite end of the spectrum, there are also certain things which are evil.
Homosexuality is one of those things which is evil, plain and simple, and if anyone doesn't already know that, by nature, they simply need to be told that it is.
You really don't get it. Just as someone coming up to you and telling you your natural inclination to be attracted to women is evil would be laughable to you (and raise the question as to if that were true, why would God have allowed you to be born this way), this is how others feel.
It's not that simple. It really isn't.
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The idea that we should consider everything to be good, just because some people may think it is good, is an idea that needs to be tossed out like garbage.
I haven't for second advocated that position. My intent has always been the question as how to sensitively and effectively present the message in a way that would assist those with gay and lesbian orientations to understand and want what God wanted for them.
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By simply teaching them the concept that there are certain things which are evil, and other certain things which are good, and that the way to know what is good is to ask God and have God tell them what is good.
I tell you the love and deep feelings you have for your wife are evil, and that you should pray to ask God if that was true. Would you do it?
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Of course, in such an approach, there is the risk that Satan may speak up while claiming that he is God, such that they get the wrong impression about what is good from the wrong kind of person, but when anyone doubts or wants to know what is really good in this world they simply need to ask God with faith that he will answer them and teach them all about what is good.
So all gays must not have enough faith, or else God would tell them their thoughts were evil, and they'd just get over it.
Next we'll start hearing that Gays must have been less valiant in the pre-existence. Or perhaps they were fence-sitters. That's why they're born that way. Either way, they deserve all that's coming to them if they don't just repent when I tell them that their very nature is evil, right?
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Darin, on 23 November 2010 - 01:20 PM, said:
