Metal Plates--Joseph Smith Mocked for His Discription

[Mike Reed]

In Lehi in the Desert Hugh Nibley spends several paragraphs effectively proving that metallic records were used in antiquity. Nibley then predicts, "It will not be long before men forget that in Joseph Smith's day the prophet was mocked and derided for his description of the plates more than anything else." (107) FAIR echoes this same argument here.

Sure... Smith's skeptics mocked him because they associated his

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

In Lehi in the Desert Hugh Nibley spends several paragraphs effectively proving that metallic records were used in antiquity. Nibley then predicts, "It will not be long before men forget that in Joseph Smith's day the prophet was mocked and derided for his description of the plates more than anything else." (107) FAIR echoes this same argument here.

Sure... Smith's skeptics mocked him because they associated his

[Mike Reed]

I heard this critisim a few times on my mission from some people. That JS obviously made it up because the idea of metal plates is absurd. That is all I can say about it. Sorry I could not be more help.

You served a mission in Joseph Smith's day? Wow! You are much older than I expected.

Just kidding.

To clarify, I'm looking for quotes from skeptics who were contemporary with Joseph Smith. But thanks.

[Obiwan]

Anti-mormonism LONG considered it preposterous that writings and scripture would have been done on thin metal plates, especially "golden" ones. To them they always thought writings to have ONLY occurred on either rock, parchment, a solid chunk of metal, or similar. Even many "modern" anti-mormon writings (last 20 years) still have the same false claim in their writings. (they regurgitate old debunked anti-mormon claims constantly)

I can't list you off a list of "who" said it, but I've seen it my whole life in studying anti-mormonism from nearly every author, website, etc. Certainly it has been one of the more "common" attacks against the prophet from a scientific/historical standpoint (such as the Smithsonian (which anti's like to regurgitate as proof of the BOM NOT being "historical" or based in science and reality)), especially early on.

[Mike Reed]

Anti-mormonism LONG considered it preposterous that writings and scripture would have been done on thin metal plates, especially "golden" ones. To them they always thought writings to have ONLY occurred on either rock, parchment, a solid chunk of metal, or similar. Even many "modern" anti-mormon writings (last 20 years) still have the same false claim in their writings. (they regurgitate old debunked anti-mormon claims constantly)

I can't list you off a list of "who" said it, but I've seen it my whole life in studying anti-mormonism from nearly every author, website, etc. Certainly it has been one of the more "common" attacks against the prophet from a scientific/historical standpoint (such as the Smithsonian), especially early on.

It isn't any help unless you provide quotes. I've also widely studied anti-Mormonism for many years... and I can't for the life of me remember a single example. Again... I am looking for sources contemporary with Joseph Smith. Hugh Nibley said "in Joseph Smith's day."

[thesometimesaint]

Mike Reed:

The use of metal plates in any type of printing was not understood until well after the BoM was delivered to the world.

[AKS]

Mike Reed:

The use of metal plates in any type of printing was not understood until well after the BoM was delivered to the world.

cfr

[thesometimesaint]

AKS:

http://www.enotes.com/american-history-literature/book-periodical-illustration

[Mike Reed]

AKS:

http://www.enotes.com/american-history-literature/book-periodical-illustration

This is about metal plates being used for printing books. It says nothing about whether or not engraved metal records existed in antiquity. Nor does this source come from one of Joseph's contemporary critics. Thanks for trying.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You served a mission in Joseph Smith's day? Wow! You are much older than I expected.

Just kidding.

To clarify, I'm looking for quotes from skeptics who were contemporary with Joseph Smith. But thanks.

Well I did warn you that I wouldn't be or couldn't be more help.

[Mike Reed]

Well I did warn you that I wouldn't be or couldn't be more help.

[Glenn101]

It isn't any help unless you provide quotes. I've also widely studied anti-Mormonism for many years... and I can't for the life of me remember a single example. Again... I am looking for sources contemporary with Joseph Smith. Hugh Nibley said "in Joseph Smith's day."

Jeff Lindsay has a couple of references on his Book of Mormon evidences page, that although are not contemporary with Joseph Smith, do date back to 1857, which evidences that the idea that Nephi would not have known about writing on metal plates was still being noised around.

Here is one reference: Mormonism: Its Leaders and Designs by John Hyde, Jr. Here is a link to the book. Check pages 217 and 218.

Maybe there are others even earlier. I'll keep checking.

Glenn

[kolipoki09]

Perhaps there are some apologists (from FAIR or elsewhere) willing to fill me on this big controversy that I am so unaware of. Your help would be much appreciated. Thanks!

--Mike Reed

I'm unaware of any of Joseph's contemporaries being opposed to the notion of ancient records being engraved on metal plates. I don't know how far back the "weight" issue has gone, but that seems to be the most common objection in regards to the plates actual existence which I'm sure you're well aware of, like the infamous "Tanner" plates of lead and MRM's 100-pound "Dumb" Bell spraypainted gold.

Mike Ash has a few conversations on the subject with current critics at his website. So far I think it is the closest that I can find to what you're looking for, though not from Joseph's contemporaries and as far as I know, AFTER Nibley published Lehi in the Desert.

Metal Plates and Stone Boxes

I hope this helps Mike!

[Mike Reed]

Thanks Glenn!

It is a little late... but yes, this is the type of quote I am looking for:

Now the Jews did not use plates of brass at that time. Their writing materials were

1. Tablets smeared with wax.

2. Linen rubbed with a kind of gum.

3. Tanned leather and vellum.

4. Parchment (invented by Attalus of Pergamos).

5. Papyrus. (M. Stuart, O. Test. Can.)

All the writings of the Jews long anterior and subsequent to Zedekiah were in rolls. (Isa., xxxiv. 4; Jer., xxxvi. 25;

Source: The link that Glen provided above.

Anything more contemporary with "Joseph Smith's day"?

[Mike Reed]

I'm unaware of any of Joseph's contemporaries being opposed to the notion of ancient records being engraved on metal plates. I don't know how far back the "weight" issue has gone, but that seems to be the most common objection in regards to the plates actual existence which I'm sure you're well aware of, like the infamous "Tanner" plates of lead and MRM's 100-pound "Dumb" Bell spraypainted gold.

Mike Ash has a few conversations on the subject with current critics at his website. So far I think it is the closest that I can find to what you're looking for, though not from Joseph's contemporaries and as far as I know, AFTER Nibley published Lehi in the Desert.

Metal Plates and Stone Boxes

I hope this helps Mike!

Appreciate the effort, Kilipoki09.

[Mike Reed]

And here is one that was found by Mike Ash (on Lindsay's site):

The book of Mormon purports to have been originally engraved on brass plates.... How could brass be written on?

....

This book speaks... of the Jewish Scriptures, having been kept by Jews on plates of brass, six hundred years before Christ. The Jews never kept any of their records on plates of brass. (

Mormonism Exposed and Refuted

[Piercy & Reed Printers, New York, 1838], pp 44, 46)

It seems like this claim was not as prevalent as Nibley implies.

[Glenn101]

It seems like this claim was not as prevalent as Nibley implies.

That we have been able to find record of, at least. Don't you just love it??? Not found not equal never existed???

Glenn

[Mike Reed]

That we have been able to find record of, at least. Don't you just love it??? Not found not equal never existed???

Come on now. Cut me some slack. I didn't say it never existed. In fact, I clearly acknowledged that it indeed DID exist. Just that it doesn't "seem" to have been as prevalent as Nibley purports.

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

I have to agree with Mike on this one. It doesn't seem that it was as prevalent as Bro. Nibley suggested. ("more than anything else"). I think Nibley overstated it, but it doesn't make it any less interesting of a "hit" for Joseph Smith.

[Joseph Antley]

I think you're right, Mike. This looks more like careless rhetoric on Nibley's part.

[Mike Reed]

Thanks guys. The weight of the plates seems to have been the bigger issue for Joseph's contemporary critics.

The key question for me now is, "Would someone like Joseph Smith have been previously aware of ancient metallic records?"

[Obiwan]

Come on now. Cut me some slack. I didn't say it never existed. In fact, I clearly acknowledged that it indeed DID exist. Just that it doesn't "seem" to have been as prevalent as Nibley purports.

I've already told I've seen it in almost every anti-mormon work since the beginning. I know you want proof, but sorry, most of us don't have memory's on this kind of thing or searchable databases in which we can just pull a bunch of quotes. I know you haven't noticed it, but sorry, I guess you are just going to have to trust us. It's always been one of the main "science" based contentions against the Church, along with the idea of no Horses, crops, etc.

It is always possible that he slightly over-exaggerated, but I don't think so. I think he was speaking from a scientific standpoint that it has been one of the biggest arguments against the BOM of the past. Who knows his mindset, for there are a number of possibility's of "why" he said it, all of which are not unreasonable. Much ado about nothing personally.....

[kolipoki09]

The key question for me now is, "Would someone like Joseph Smith have been previously aware of ancient metallic records?"

I wouldn't put it past him that he indeed could have had access to several resources in which something resembling the Book of Mormon could have been produced. I think we sometimes overstate Joseph's poor education as evidence supporting the notion that he divinely translated the plates, which is not to say that I believe it wasn't divinely introduced. However, in relation to metallurgy I don't know how Joseph was aware of ancient metallic records beyond a few contemporary examples of engraved jewelry, perhaps coming from stories of "buried treasure."

So could he have known? I think so. The real question is, did he know? I think we could both write volumes of material going either way. Such is the mystery my friend.

[Calm]

I heard this critisim a few times on my mission from some people. That JS obviously made it up because the idea of metal plates is absurd. That is all I can say about it. Sorry I could not be more help.

I also remember it growing up (said by nonmembers), so that would be sixities at least, maybe early seventies. Then metal records began to be found or at least better known (I vaguely remember seeing some in a National Geographic) and I didn't hear it anymore.

To clarify, I'm looking for quotes from skeptics who were contemporary with Joseph Smith. But thanks.

Oops, sorry, please feel free to ignore.

[Calm]

Perhaps Nibley gives citations in other works? There was also a work by Welch or Tvedtnes (sp?) that focused on metal records IIRC. That would seem a likely source for sources if it presented why such things are now seen as relevant to the apologetic arguments...I don't think I have that one---just looked at it in the bookstore--will go look just in case, but if you are really curious, I'd email FAIR as someone there would likely have the book.