Lesson 23 - The Scattering and Gathering of Israel

[marineland]

On 8/13/2024 at 12:08 PM, Dario_M said:

Oh really? How interesting. 

The seminary manual teaches on page 108: "Explain to students that in the Book of Mormon, 
the word Gentiles usually refers to those who are not from the tribe of Judah or from the 
land of Judah".

Where does the Book of Mormon give examples where all those of Manasseh, Ephraim, Dan, 
and other Israelites from non-Judah tribes, who are not from the land of Judah, are Gentiles?

[Dario_M]

10 hours ago, marineland said:

 

Where does the Book of Mormon give examples where all those of Manasseh, Ephraim, Dan, 
and other Israelites from non-Judah tribes, who are not from the land of Judah, are Gentiles?

Uhm.. i don't know.🤷

[InCognitus]

On 8/9/2024 at 8:39 AM, marineland said:

How do you identify an Ephraimite who is not a Gentile?

If, as scripture says, Ephraim was to become "a multitude of nations" (with "nations" being translated from the exact same Hebrew [and Greek] word as is used for Gentiles), then what is the difference?

[InCognitus]

On 8/17/2024 at 1:16 PM, marineland said:

The seminary manual teaches on page 108: "Explain to students that in the Book of Mormon, 
the word Gentiles usually refers to those who are not from the tribe of Judah or from the 
land of Judah".

Where does the Book of Mormon give examples where all those of Manasseh, Ephraim, Dan, 
and other Israelites from non-Judah tribes, who are not from the land of Judah, are Gentiles?

I already gave you an answer to this question.  Why ask the exact same question again without engaging the answer?

[marineland]

On 8/18/2024 at 9:37 PM, InCognitus said:

If, as scripture says, Ephraim was to become "a multitude of nations" (with "nations" being translated from the exact same Hebrew [and Greek] word as is used for Gentiles), then what is the difference?

The difference is literal lineage.

Suppose one of these nations is England. One cannot say that all England or a majority
of England is Ephraim.

Take the Worldwide Church of God. Historically, this church, founded by Herbert W.
Armstrong, included British Israelism in its doctrine. However, after Armstrong's death
and subsequent reforms, the church moved away from this belief. I think it began in the
late 1980s and early 1990s under the leadership of Joseph Tkach Sr.

[InCognitus]

On 8/21/2024 at 8:16 AM, marineland said:

The difference is literal lineage.

Suppose one of these nations is England. One cannot say that all England or a majority
of England is Ephraim.

Take the Worldwide Church of God. Historically, this church, founded by Herbert W.
Armstrong, included British Israelism in its doctrine. However, after Armstrong's death
and subsequent reforms, the church moved away from this belief. I think it began in the
late 1980s and early 1990s under the leadership of Joseph Tkach Sr.

Obviously the bloodline of Ephraim is what makes them Ephraimites, but both Ephraimites and non-Ephraimites would be considered "Gentiles" in this case (biblically speaking).  God knows who they are, and they are also the ones most likely to respond to the message of the gospel.  

[ZealouslyStriving]

On 8/21/2024 at 7:16 AM, marineland said:

The difference is literal lineage.

Suppose one of these nations is England. One cannot say that all England or a majority
of England is Ephraim.

Take the Worldwide Church of God. Historically, this church, founded by Herbert W.
Armstrong, included British Israelism in its doctrine. However, after Armstrong's death
and subsequent reforms, the church moved away from this belief. I think it began in the
late 1980s and early 1990s under the leadership of Joseph Tkach Sr.

And half their members left and started Armstrong supporting breakaway churches.

I think some of the Biblical theories of Mr. Armstrong are much more accurate than Protestant theories.

Some Judahites made it to Britain also. It's interesting that the (I believe) royal crest is a lion and a unicorn.

[marineland]

On 8/22/2024 at 12:21 PM, InCognitus said:

Obviously the bloodline of Ephraim is what makes them Ephraimites, but both Ephraimites and non-Ephraimites would be considered "Gentiles" in this case (biblically speaking). 

What makes a person in the bloodline of Jacob a "Gentile"?

On 8/22/2024 at 12:21 PM, InCognitus said:

God knows who they are, and they are also the ones most likely to respond to the message of the gospel.  

Who is "they"?

[InCognitus]

4 hours ago, marineland said:

What makes a person in the bloodline of Jacob a "Gentile"?

Who is "they"?

"They" refers back to the subject of my previous sentence (the bloodline of Ephraim). 

As for what makes a person in the bloodline of Jacob a "Gentile", that refers back to my post earlier in this thread on July 26, where I referred to Genesis 48:19 where Jacob blessed Ephraim and Manasseh and said of Ephraim (the younger of the two), “his younger brother shall be greater than he [Manasseh], and his [Ephraim’s] seed shall become a multitude of nations.”  (Genesis 48:19).   The Hebrew word translated as "nations" in that verse is the exact same Hebrew word that is translated as "Gentiles".  So the Bible says that Ephraim would become a multitude of Gentiles.

Edit to add:   Apparently even the Jubilee Bible translates Genesis 48:19 verse exactly that way:  "And his father refused and said, I know it, my son, I know it; he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of Gentiles."  See also:  Bible Gateway Genesis 48:19.

Edited August 24, 2024 by InCognitus

[marineland]

On 8/24/2024 at 1:20 PM, InCognitus said:

Edit to add:   Apparently even the Jubilee Bible translates Genesis 48:19 verse exactly that way:  "And his father refused and said, I know it, my son, I know it; he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of Gentiles."  See also:  Bible Gateway Genesis 48:19.

That's a description of Ephraim being greater than Manasseh but not greater than the other
sons of Jacob.

On 8/22/2024 at 12:21 PM, InCognitus said:

Obviously the bloodline of Ephraim is what makes them Ephraimites, but both Ephraimites and non-Ephraimites would be considered "Gentiles" in this case (biblically speaking).  God knows who they are, and they are also the ones most likely to respond to the message of the gospel.  

Why would Ephraim be the most likely to respond to the gospel message?

Edited August 26, 2024 by marineland

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, marineland said:

That's a description of Ephraim being greater than Manasseh but not greater than the other
sons of Jacob.

The verse says (Genesis 48:19):   "And his father refused and said, I know it, my son, I know it; he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great; but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of Gentiles." 

So the statement about becoming a "multitude of Gentiles" is independent of his relationship to his younger brother, and with Ephraim replacing Ruben as the firstborn and Manasseh replacing Simeon (see Genesis 48:5), that blessing prevailed over all his brethren, as the blessing to Joseph shows in Genesis 49:26:  "The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren."

This is a greater land blessing than what was given to Abraham (his “progenitors”).  Remember what I posted before?  

The Rashi (Jewish Rabbi) commentary on Genesis 49:26 has this to say:

"עד תאות גבעות עולם EVEN TO THE BOUNDARIES OF THE EVERLASTING HILLS — Because my blessings have prevailed, extending to the very ends of the bounds of the everlasting hills, for He gave me a blessing that bursts all bounds, one that has no limits, that reaches even unto the four corners of the world, as it is stated, (Genesis 28:14) '[God said to Jacob] and thou shalt spread abroad to the West and to the East [and to the North and to the South]', an unqualified promise that was made neither to Abraham nor to Isaac. For to Abraham He said, (Genesis 13:14) “Lift up thine eyes and look northwards etc. … for all the land which thou seest to thee will I give it”, and He showed him only the Land of Israel. To Isaac He said, (Genesis 26:3) “for unto thee and unto thy seed will I give all these lands, and I will establish the oath [which I swore unto Abraham thy father]”. It is to this that Isaiah alludes when he said, (Isaiah 58:14) “And I will feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father” (Shabbat 118b), and he did not say, “with the heritage promised to Abraham”."

1 hour ago, marineland said:

Why would Ephraim be the most likely to respond to the gospel message?

Because those of the house of Israel are promised that they will come to a remembrance of their covenants, and Ephraim is of the house of Israel and (because of the biblical prophecies noted above) is the most prevalent of the tribes in the nations of the Gentiles.

[marineland]

On 8/26/2024 at 5:13 PM, InCognitus said:

So the statement about becoming a "multitude of Gentiles" is independent of his relationship to his younger brother, and with Ephraim replacing Ruben as the firstborn and Manasseh replacing Simeon (see Genesis 48:5), that blessing prevailed over all his brethren, as the blessing to Joseph shows in Genesis 49:26:  "The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren."

Can you be more specific about these blessings?  What did Reuben lose that Ephraim gained?

On 8/26/2024 at 5:13 PM, InCognitus said:

This is a greater land blessing than what was given to Abraham (his “progenitors”).  Remember what I posted before?  

The Rashi (Jewish Rabbi) commentary on Genesis 49:26 has this to say:

"עד תאות גבעות עולם EVEN TO THE BOUNDARIES OF THE EVERLASTING HILLS — Because my blessings have prevailed, extending to the very ends of the bounds of the everlasting hills, for He gave me a blessing that bursts all bounds, one that has no limits, that reaches even unto the four corners of the world, as it is stated, (Genesis 28:14) '[God said to Jacob] and thou shalt spread abroad to the West and to the East [and to the North and to the South]', an unqualified promise that was made neither to Abraham nor to Isaac. For to Abraham He said, (Genesis 13:14) “Lift up thine eyes and look northwards etc. … for all the land which thou seest to thee will I give it”, and He showed him only the Land of Israel. To Isaac He said, (Genesis 26:3) “for unto thee and unto thy seed will I give all these lands, and I will establish the oath [which I swore unto Abraham thy father]”. It is to this that Isaiah alludes when he said, (Isaiah 58:14) “And I will feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father” (Shabbat 118b), and he did not say, “with the heritage promised to Abraham”."

If I were to take that literally - spreading abroad to the West and to the East and to the North
and to the South (from the context of the land of Israel), then Ephraim would inherit the entire
world. What land would Manasseh inherit then?

Do you see all of America, from top to bottom, as indicative of those "everlasting hills"?

I checked the Jewish rabbi commentary but don't see the United States inferred.  

On 8/26/2024 at 5:13 PM, InCognitus said:

Because those of the house of Israel are promised that they will come to a remembrance of their covenants, and Ephraim is of the house of Israel and (because of the biblical prophecies noted above) is the most prevalent of the tribes in the nations of the Gentiles.

But how would Ephraim, whether he was the most or the least prevalent tribe, make him
more likely to respond to the gospel message though?  When Jesus was preaching in his
ministry, was one tribe more likely to accept his message than another?

[InCognitus]

On 8/28/2024 at 11:46 AM, marineland said:

On 8/26/2024 at 3:13 PM, InCognitus said:

So the statement about becoming a "multitude of Gentiles" is independent of his relationship to his younger brother, and with Ephraim replacing Ruben as the firstborn and Manasseh replacing Simeon (see Genesis 48:5), that blessing prevailed over all his brethren, as the blessing to Joseph shows in Genesis 49:26:  "The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren."

Can you be more specific about these blessings?  What did Reuben lose that Ephraim gained?

I know you are connected with theplains, so I'm not going to reboot this whole conversation again.  Just reread our prior discussion about Ephraim receiving the birthright, specifically in these posts from 02/03/2024, 02/25/2024, 03/03/2024, 04/19/2024, and 05/04/2024.  See also 1 Chronicles 5:1-2.

On 8/28/2024 at 11:46 AM, marineland said:

If I were to take that literally - spreading abroad to the West and to the East and to the North
and to the South (from the context of the land of Israel), then Ephraim would inherit the entire
world. What land would Manasseh inherit then?

Do you see all of America, from top to bottom, as indicative of those "everlasting hills"?

I checked the Jewish rabbi commentary but don't see the United States inferred.  

I see Ephraim basically getting the entire world as you surmised above, and the same as you did posting as theplains on 02/29/2024:

On 2/29/2024 at 7:38 AM, theplains said:

Since the prophetic utterance of Ephraim (… and his seed shall become a multitude of nations;
Genesis 48:19), it is technically possible that the tribe of Ephraim would be allotted the 
entire world.

The "entire world" would definitely include the United States (unless your definition of "entire world" is a special one).

On 8/28/2024 at 11:46 AM, marineland said:

But how would Ephraim, whether he was the most or the least prevalent tribe, make him
more likely to respond to the gospel message though?  When Jesus was preaching in his
ministry, was one tribe more likely to accept his message than another?

All the tribes of Israel would be more likely to respond to the message of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, but Ephraim is specifically mentioned in scripture:

"And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the Lord.  I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased. And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again." (Zechariah 10:7–9)

Edited August 29, 2024 by InCognitus

[marineland]

On 8/29/2024 at 1:32 AM, InCognitus said:

All the tribes of Israel would be more likely to respond to the message of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, but Ephraim is specifically mentioned in scripture:

"And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the Lord.  I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased. And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again." (Zechariah 10:7–9)

Almost the same thing is said about those of Judah.

Mine anger was kindled against the shepherds, and I punished the goats: for the 
Lord of hosts hath visited his flock the house of Judah, and hath made them as 
his goodly horse in the battle.

Out of him came forth the corner, out of him the nail, out of him the battle 
bow, out of him every oppressor together.

And they shall be as mighty men, which tread down their enemies in the mire of 
the streets in the battle: and they shall fight, because the Lord is with them, 
and the riders on horses shall be confounded.

And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, 
and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they 
shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the Lord their God, and 
will hear them.

But there is nothing to indicate the tribe of Ephraim will be more likely than
any other Israelite tribe to accept the message of the gospel.

[InCognitus]

On 8/30/2024 at 10:49 AM, marineland said:

Almost the same thing is said about those of Judah.

Almost, but not quite.

On 8/30/2024 at 10:49 AM, marineland said:

But there is nothing to indicate the tribe of Ephraim will be more likely than
any other Israelite tribe to accept the message of the gospel.

Except for where it says of Ephraim, "I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased. And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again."

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" (John 10:27)

Edited September 1, 2024 by InCognitus

[marineland]

On 8/31/2024 at 9:31 PM, InCognitus said:

Except for where it says of Ephraim, "I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased. And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children, and turn again."

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" (John 10:27)

Do you believe Zechariah 10:8-12 is only speaking about Ephraim ?

[InCognitus]

30 minutes ago, marineland said:

Do you believe Zechariah 10:8-12 is only speaking about Ephraim ?

It is speaking about Ephraim (as a tribe) as the head of the northern tribes, but all the northern tribes would be included.

Edited September 4, 2024 by InCognitus

[marineland]

On 9/4/2024 at 1:30 PM, InCognitus said:

It is speaking about Ephraim (as a tribe) as the head of the northern tribes, but all the northern tribes would be included.

Sounds good.