Jump to content
Seriously No Politics ×

BYU will honor two members of Wyoming’s Black 14 this weekend


smac97

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, smac97 said:

For me, the Priesthood Ban (and the racist proclivities it created/encouraged amongst some/many members) and MMM stand as the two great moral stains on the Church.  I don't subscribe to the notion of collective guilt, but the community can nevertheless seek to find peace and reconciliation (and, to an extent, make recompense) for past wrongs.

The Priesthood ban is hard to defend for me.   The church never gave anything of substance  to justify the practice when it was started.  Even the best references from the scriptures are strained in my view.  The MMM however I disagree.  The Church had nothing to do with it.  Some members in southern Utah made some bad decisions but their decisions is is not the church decisions.  If I go out and kill some people, its not a moral stain on the church, it is a moral stain on me.

Edited by carbon dioxide
Posted
6 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

The Priesthood ban is hard to defend for me.  

Same here.  Broadly speaking, I don't defend it, as it lacks any known revelatory provenance.

6 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

The church never gave anything of substance  to justify the practice when it was started.  Even the best references from the scriptures are strained in my view. 

Yep.

6 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

The MMM however I disagree.  The Church had nothing to do with it. 

Well, I acknowledge your point, to an extent.  The Church did not authorize it.  The Church did not know about it beforehand.  The Church (Brigham Young) attempted - unfortunately too late - to stop it:

Quote

"James Haslam, of Wellsville, Cache County, was sworn. He lived in Cedar City in 1857; was ordered by Haight to take a message to President Young will all speed; knew the contents of the message; left Cedar City September 7, 1857, between 5 and 6 p. m., and arrived at Salt Lake on Thursday at 11 a. m.; started back at 3 p. m., and reached Cedar about 11 a. m. Sunday morning, September 13th; deliverd the answer from President Young to Haight, who said it was too late. Witness testified that when leaving Salt Lake to return, President Young said to him: 'Go with all speed, spare no horseflesh. The emigrants must not be meddled with, if it takes all Iron County to prevent it. They must go free and unmolested.' Witness knew the contents of the answer. He got back with the message the Sunday after the massacre and reported to Haight, who said, 'It is too late.'"

That said, I can't get on board with the notion that "{t}he Church had nothing to do with it."  See, for example, the Church's essay:

Quote

The arrival of the wagon train in Utah Territory occurred in the midst of a period of “reformation” within the Church. Concerned about spiritual complacency, Brigham Young and other Church leaders delivered a series of sermons in which they called the Saints to repent and renew their spiritual commitments. At times during the reformation, Brigham Young, his counselor Jedediah M. Grant, and other leaders preached with fiery rhetoric, warning against the evils of sin and those who dissented from or opposed the Church. Such preaching led to increased strain between the Latter-day Saints and their relative few neighbors in Utah, including federally appointed officials.

This tension intensified in early 1857 when United States president James Buchanan received reports from some of the federal officials in Utah alleging that Governor Brigham Young and the Latter-day Saints in the territory were rebelling against the authority of the federal government. A strongly worded memorial from the Utah legislature (composed predominantly of Latter-day Saints) to the federal government convinced federal officials the reports were true. President Buchanan decided to replace Brigham Young as governor and, in what became known as the Utah War, sent an army to Utah to escort his replacement.

Latter-day Saints feared that the oncoming army—some 1,500 troops, with more to follow—would renew the depredations of Missouri and Illinois and again drive the Saints from their homes. In addition, Parley P. Pratt, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, was murdered in Arkansas in May 1857. News of the murder—as well as newspaper reports from the eastern United States that celebrated the crime—reached Utah weeks later. As these events unfolded, Brigham Young declared martial law in the territory, directed missionaries and settlers in outlying areas to return to Utah, and guided preparations to resist the army. Defiant sermons given by President Young and other Church leaders, combined with the impending arrival of an army, helped create an environment of fear and suspicion in Utah.

"The Church" (that is, the leaders) helped "set the stage," as it were, for the massacre.  In saying this I don't attribute malicious intent.  Brigham Young and other leaders preached "fiery rhetoric" and "defiant sermons," and such things were understandable (though, in hindsight, regrettable).  The Saints had been through a lot by that point.  It was not unreasonable for the leaders and the members to fear a renewal of "the depredations of Missouri and Illinois" they had experienced only a few years prior.  There is also much that can be said about obnoxious behaviors by federal officials, by Pres. Buchanan (his dispatching of America's largest standing army against America's own citizens was characterized, then and now, as "Buchanan's Blunder"), by the nonfeasance of state officials in Missouri and Illinois, and so on.  Nevertheless, in 1857 Utah was on a war footing, was in the thrall of an "environment of fear and suspicion," and the actions of Church leaders affirmatively contributed to that state of affairs.

By characterizing MMM has a "great moral stain," I am not intending to impute some sort of collective guilt or culpability.  The United States of America likewise contributed to the "environment of fear and suspicion."  The USA has any number of atrocities in its ledgers, many of which were intentional and facially malevolent (slavery, segregation and Jim Crow, massacres of Native Americans and other mistreatments, Japanese internment camps, etc.).  Others, though, are more indicative of gross negligence by state actors, of circumstances spinning out of control, etc.: Mỹ Lai, Kent State, Waco and Ruby Ridge, and so on.  Most of these (Kent State being an exception) had the state actors being in a very tense, life-or-death, "war footing" type of environment.

I generally reject "collective" accusations against the Church, such as where one of its members has abused a child.  I typically reject the imputation of culpability in that context because A) the Church has never condoned such behavior, and B) the Church has instead expressly and repeatedly and emphatically condemned such behavior.  On occasion, however, the Church may be legally culpable for the misconduct of its representatives.  For example, McKenna Denson appears to have been abused when she was in the MTC.

6 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Some members in southern Utah made some bad decisions but their decisions is is not the church decisions.

Well, yes and no.  The participants were acting in their "military" (militia) capacity, but that function was heavily intertwined with their status as members of the Church, as were their leaders:

Quote

The Baker–Fancher party left Corn Creek and continued the 125 miles (201 km) to Mountain Meadows, passing Parowan and Cedar City, southern Utah communities led respectively by Stake Presidents William H. Dame and Isaac C. Haight. Haight and Dame were, in addition, the senior regional military leaders of the Nauvoo Legion.  As the Baker–Fancher party approached, several meetings were held in Cedar City and nearby Parowan by the local Latter Day Saint (LDS) leaders pondering how to implement Young's declaration of martial law.[16] On the afternoon of Sunday, September 6, Haight held his weekly Stake High Council meeting after church services and brought up the issue of what to do with the emigrants.[17] The plan for a Native American massacre was discussed, but not all the Council members agreed it was the right approach.[17] The Council resolved to take no action until Haight sent a rider, James Haslam, out the next day to carry an express to Salt Lake City (a six-day round trip on horseback) for Brigham Young's advice, as Utah did not yet have a telegraph system.[17] Following the council, Isaac C. Haight decided to send a messenger south to John D. Lee.[17] What Haight told Lee remains a mystery, but considering the timing it may have had something to do with Council's decision to wait for advice from Brigham Young.[18]

The dispirited Baker–Fancher party found water and fresh grazing for its livestock after reaching grassy, mountain-ringed Mountain Meadows, a widely known stopover on the old Spanish Trail, in early September. They anticipated several days of rest and recuperation there before the next 40 miles (64 km) would take them out of Utah. On September 7, the party was attacked by Nauvoo Legion militiamen dressed as Native Americans and some Native American Paiutes.[19] The Baker–Fancher party defended itself by encircling and lowering their wagons, wheels chained together, along with digging shallow trenches and throwing dirt both below and into the wagons, which made a strong barrier. Seven emigrants were killed during the opening attack and buried somewhere within the wagon encirclement. Sixteen more were wounded.[20][21] The attack continued for five days, during which the besieged families had little or no access to freshwater or game food and their ammunition was depleted.[19] Meanwhile, organization among the local Mormon leadership reportedly broke down.[16] Eventually, fear spread among the militia's leaders that some emigrants had caught sight of white men, and had probably discerned the identity of their attackers. This resulted in an order to kill all the emigrants,[22] with the exception of small children.[23]

On Friday, September 11, 1857, two militiamen approached the Baker–Fancher party wagons with a white flag and were soon followed by Indian Agent and militia officer John D. Lee. Lee told the battle-weary emigrants that he had negotiated a truce with the Paiutes. Under Mormon protection, the wagon-train members would be escorted safely back to Cedar City, 36 miles (58 km) away, in exchange for turning all of their livestock and supplies over to the Native Americans.[27] Accepting this offer, the emigrants were led out of their fortification, with the adult men being separated from the women and children. The men were paired with a militia escort and when the signal was given,[25] the militiamen turned and shot the male members of the Baker–Fancher party standing by their side. The women and children were then ambushed and killed by more militia that were hiding in nearby bushes and ravines. Members of the militia were sworn to secrecy. A plan was set to blame the massacre on the Native Americans.

And here:

Quote

Emigrant families from Arkansas formed a caravan led by Alexander Fancher and John Baker. As the wagon train traveled through Salt Lake City, the emigrants clashed verbally with local Latter-day Saints over where they could graze their cattle. Some of the members of the wagon train became frustrated because they had difficulty purchasing much-needed grain and other supplies from local settlers, who had been instructed to save their grain as a wartime policy. Aggrieved, some of the emigrants threatened to join incoming troops in fighting against the Saints.

Although some Saints ignored these threats, other local Church leaders and members in Cedar City, Utah, advocated violence. Isaac C. Haight, a stake president and militia leader, sent John D. Lee, a militia major, to lead an attack on the emigrant company. When the president reported the plan to his council, other leaders objected and requested that he call off the attack and instead send an express rider to Brigham Young in Salt Lake City for guidance. But the men Haight had sent to attack the emigrants carried out their plans before they received the order not to attack. The emigrants fought back, and a siege ensued.

Over the next few days, events escalated, and Latter-day Saint militiamen planned and carried out a massacre. They lured the emigrants from their circled wagons with a false flag of truce and, aided by Paiute Indians they had recruited, slaughtered them. Between the first attack and the final slaughter, 120 were killed. The express rider returned two days after the massacre. He carried a letter from Brigham Young telling local leaders to “not meddle” with the emigrants and to allow them to pass through southern Utah in peace. The militiamen sought to cover up the crime by placing the entire blame on local Paiutes, some of whom were also members of the Church.

Terrible.  Every which way.

I can't help but draw something of a comparison between the MMM, arising due to a group "war footing" mindset that was in place in southern Utah in 1857, with some of the POW atrocities committed aby U.S. forces in the waning days of WWII.   

6 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

If I go out and kill some people, its not a moral stain on the church, it is a moral stain on me.

What are your thoughts about Mỹ Lai?  ChenogneLippach?  The Dachau liberation reprisals?

These are not a "moral stain" on our country?

Thanks,

-Smac

Posted (edited)

I worked on this project with my students and I can tell you this has been something that has been in the works for some time, this isn’t a PR stunt by any means.  In fact the university higharchy or the church didn’t even know of our project until the last few weeks.  We’ve been planning this for about a year and started traveling and shooting back in early May.  The Black 14 were invited to campus at our request, in the school of communications, to coincide with this long planned game against Wyoming, not the university’s invite. I would say the Lord has remarkable timing!  The documentary that we did on their story can be seen here. 

https://universe.byu.edu/2022/09/23/byu-student-produced-documentary-the-black-14-healing-hearts-and-feeding-souls/?fbclid=IwAR3Qv1iY6Z39cYp1sNje0UtXm5oPNQRX_8amXh3HoyDgqnJv1FUrH3DsuIs

Edited by Sevenbak
Posted
12 hours ago, Sevenbak said:

I worked on this project with my students and I can tell you this has been something that has been in the works for some time, this isn’t a PR stunt by any means.  In fact the university higharchy or the church didn’t even know of our project until the last few weeks.  We’ve been planning this for about a year and started traveling and shooting back in early May.  The Black 14 were invited to campus at our request, in the school of communications, to coincide with this long planned game against Wyoming, not the university’s invite. I would say the Lord has remarkable timing!  The documentary that we did on their story can be seen here. 

https://universe.byu.edu/2022/09/23/byu-student-produced-documentary-the-black-14-healing-hearts-and-feeding-souls/?fbclid=IwAR3Qv1iY6Z39cYp1sNje0UtXm5oPNQRX_8amXh3HoyDgqnJv1FUrH3DsuIs

Thank you for posting the link to the documentary.  It was uplifting, compelling and inspiring.  One has to admire these 14 men for the example of forgiveness.  I'm grateful Elder Nielsen was in a position to make the connections and facilitate an institutional Church response that seems to have helped heal a lot of the old  wounds.  I hope I can be part of the ongoing effort to heal and bless.

Posted
On 9/23/2022 at 12:12 PM, smac97 said:

For me, the Priesthood Ban (and the racist proclivities it created/encouraged amongst some/many members) and MMM stand as the two great moral stains on the Church.

I don’t pretend to understand the reasoning behind the ban — and no one was more delighted than I to see it lifted — but I think it imprudent to label it as a moral stain on the Church. 
 

Daniel Peterson in a recent blog post expressed some thoughts on this subject that resonate with me:
 

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2022/09/dont-i-already-have-trouble-enough.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=share_bar&fbclid=IwAR16Jttg-94i6o6j1s5e9X9HaNGpgcfsNzHXc2GlzKZ00WlGsD8nWm6GREk

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...