Apostle of Color

[Calm]

Granted, the early apostles were all young men who were recent converts; but there simply weren't any experienced Church leaders then.

There was quite a high turnover rate as well, not something that would be very desirable these days among the 12 for various reasons (it's one thing to get to know the new apostles when they are your neighbour down the street, it's another thing if you know them primarily through twice a year conference talks).

And there was a much smaller organization to deal with back then as well as a more homogenous one. Needs were probably as complicated as they are today, but everyone pretty much had the same ones (either how to survive in 'Zion' or how to get there).

With all that the Twelve need to do these days, I don't think we want them taking a decade or more to 'get' all the finer details of the job. Experience not only ensures a group that will endure, but also ensures that gaps in addressing what needs are there are much less likely to be overlooked.

[KevinG]

ALERT: gross generalization are about to be made. Proceed at your own risk.

From what I've observed, most young LDS men are looking for a certain type of LDS girl. That you don't usually fit what they're looking for isn't anything to do with your looks so much as it has to do with your style. They're often looking for a meek and mild, priesthood-supporting, never-have-her-own-opinion, cavewoman-let-caveman-be-important-provider, future-wifely types that will tell them how wonderful they are, how strong they are, how much they look up to them, bear the children and never question the man's authority. You don't strike me as that kind of LDS woman. Physical beauty has little to do with it. What you need to find is an out of the ordinary LDS man to compliment your out of the ordinary LDS woman-ness. They're out there, you just have to find one. And when you find him, ask him if he's got a brother, because I know a young woman who is very like you who is saving up to adopt a child because she's certain she's never going to find a LDS man who is strong enough to let her be herself and she desperately wants to have a family.

If the shoe fits!

My wife had a clear path to me because of the number of LDS girls not willing to marry a new convert who didn't go on a mission. That's cool- I got the best spouse out of the bunch anyway.

I have several friends who are highly intgelligent women, who are frustrated at the lack of LDS boys who are willing to be challenged by a high spirited woman who may be brighter than they are. I would be bored with anything else.

Having said that, most of them eventually found understanding and intelligent men who value a righteous and wise partner.

[Del March]

ALERT: gross generalization are about to be made. Proceed at your own risk.

From what I've observed, most young LDS men are looking for a certain type of LDS girl. That you don't usually fit what they're looking for isn't anything to do with your looks so much as it has to do with your style. They're often looking for a meek and mild, priesthood-supporting, never-have-her-own-opinion, cavewoman-let-caveman-be-important-provider, future-wifely types that will tell them how wonderful they are, how strong they are, how much they look up to them, bear the children and never question the man's authority.

OK, that WAS quite a gross generalisation indeed, but you did warn us

I wouldn't put it in such strong terms, but I do agree that even here in France, LDS guys seem to be looking for a "milder" kind of women, a "less threatening" kind. Back in my days (a decade ago, pfew ), just saying that you were going to University was enough to turn many guys off. Refusing to go on a mission, or on the contrary being too focused on the spiritual side of the mission was another turn-off. In fact, even being very spiritual seemed to be a turn-off In short, showing that you had a bit of a mental and spiritual back-bone seemed to scare them somehow. Personally, I don't understand that. Wouldn't people want a strong partner, in something as important as marriage ?

But that doesn't mean that the odd ones didn't find any shoe to fit them. It usually took a bit longer, but it did come. Hey, it came even for me, and I'm very weird by many standards

Del

[Calm]

LDS guys seem to be looking for a "milder" kind of women, a "less threatening" kind

This is hardly just an LDS problem though.

[Pahoran]

And, were I a betting man, I'd wager you've probably never even heard of the mighty All Blacks.

[Del March]

LDS guys seem to be looking for a "milder" kind of women, a "less threatening" kind

This is hardly just an LDS problem though.

I disagree.

Outside of the church, guys appreciated my interest in learning, they valued my hard work and my accomplishments, they enjoyed having stimulating conversations with me. They didn't hang out with me because I had two X chromosomes, they hanged (?) out with me because I was an interesting person to be with. They had no qualms about being friends with a girl.

But in the church, the only way I was seen was as a female. My accomplishments, my desires, my dreams, my knowledge, they didn't matter to most guys. All they saw was the two Xs, and the physical wrapping around them. They didn't like the wrapping, so they didn't bother talking to me. Their clear message was "girls are only potential girlfriends. You don't conform to my physical ideal of a girlfriend, so I wipe you off my radar". The very idea of being friends with an LDS girl seemed to scare them out of their skin. And if I had the bad idea of showing any interest, even friendly, they ran away. You never know, I might make them marry me without their consent!

Now of course, not all LDS guys were like that, but a surprising number of them were. A percentage way higher than outside the church. With my sister, we postulated that it might be because anytime an LDS girl and boy are seen together, people start preparing their eternal marriage, while outside the church nobody cares when they see a girl and a boy together.

Del

[Del March]

Yes Del, there are people who not only have never seen the mighty All Blacks perform the haka, they don't even know that Rugby is the game played in heaven.

(It's a matter of sports economics, really.  The game has to follow the fan base, and you know where those Soccer hooligans are going!)

I guess that means that most French people who make it to Heaven will speak with a Southern accent. Cool

Thanks for the background info on the All Blacks moniker. Interesting

It's always great to see them play Les Bleus.  (It's even better to see them beat Les Bleus.)

I don't think so

In fact, it's quite exhilarating to see Les Bleus beat the mighty All Blacks. It's not as satisfying as when they beat the Brits (nothing could be ), but almost

Del

[Kemara]

Kemara,

kia ora, cuz!  Whereabouts in Aotearoa are you?

And where did you find that wharenui avatar?

Kia Ora Pahoran,

The Wharenui avatar is of Ngati Kahungunu found in Nuhaka, I cant remember where I got it from, I think maybe at the Ngati Rakaipaaka website. My Whanau are predominantly from the hapu Ngai Te Ipu of Whakaki and Ngati Porou of Wharekahika (Hicks Bay). Currently live in the land of the bigger longer white cloud of Australia, grew up in Hamilton, the Wahine is from Mahia.

You were right I was being very tongue and cheek; and I was not attempting to downplay the trials that African-American LDS experience due to their race or compare the Maori and African-American experience. My point however was to show that the practice persons such as GIMR are advocating is racist and that adopting racist practice in the hope of overcoming the alleged racism of the church leadership is ludicrous, unworkable and doomed.

The sweeping all encompassing generalizations of white American LDS and their unquestioned bigotry is downright ridiculous. I know many, as most rm

[Blink]

If the shoe fits!

My wife had a clear path to me because of the number of LDS girls not willing to marry a new convert who didn't go on a mission. That's cool- I got the best spouse out of the bunch anyway.

I have several friends who are highly intgelligent women, who are frustrated at the lack of LDS boys who are willing to be challenged by a high spirited woman who may be brighter than they are. I would be bored with anything else.

Having said that, most of them eventually found understanding and intelligent men who value a righteous and wise partner.

You have definitely hit the other side of that coin, Dad.

ALERT: another gross generalization. Proceed at your own risk.

Most LDS young women will not even consider a young man who hasn't served a mission, convert or BIC. The reason he didn't serve isn't important. Health issues are treated with the same disdain as worthiness issues. They generally want a man who is RM, who they consider able to support them in the style to which Daddy accustomed them (ie, upper middle class), who will direct the affairs of the household, pay the bills, tell them what to think, how to vote, and who to be awe of, father the children, take care of all the details regarding cars and appliances, and give them unfettered access to a credit card. And since that's what many young LDS men aspire to, that works out well.

It's just too bad that the young men the young women are turning their noses up at can't seem to find the young women the young men have snubbed.

I'm not sure, but I think GIMR might want to check out the older, wiser men than the wet-behind-the-ears, run-of-the-mill average LDS guy.

[Del March]

Most LDS young women will not even consider a young man who hasn't served a mission, convert or BIC. The reason he didn't serve isn't important. Health issues are treated with the same disdain as worthiness issues.

A decade ago in France, it went both ways. RMs of both genders flocked together and snubbed us non-RMs royally.

I used to want a RM too, because I was told it was the only right way. But when I started thinking about it, I realised that it wasn't that simple. In particular, I realised that there were good reasons not to go on a mission. So I decided that I would ask WHY someone didn't go on a mission, first and foremost. As it happens, my husband didn't go on a mission, and he had a good reason.

father the children,

Er... Well... The husband IS supposed to do that one, isn't he ?

take care of all the details regarding cars and appliances, and give them unfettered access to a credit card.

I must admit that my computer underwent a MAJOR lifting when my husband moved in , but it did work when I was alone to take care of it

It's just too bad that the young men the young women are turning their noses up at can't seem to find the young women the young men have snubbed. 

It's not so much that they can't. It's more that it takes a bit more time, and some find such good offers outside of the church that they don't find the courage to wait. Especially since, well, some do never find the right shoe, which is admittedly discouraging for the younger ones who are desperately looking.

I'm not sure, but I think GIMR might want to check out the older, wiser men than the wet-behind-the-ears, run-of-the-mill average LDS guy.

Agreed!

Del

[Pahoran]

Del,

you wrote:

I guess that means that most French people who make it to Heaven will speak with a Southern accent. Cool

They tell me that everything French is either illegal, immoral or fattening. Does that mean that most French people who make it to Heaven will be on the portly side?

In fact, it's quite exhilarating to see Les Bleus beat the mighty All Blacks.

Which, let's face it, doesn't happen very often.

The All Blacks usually win--unless it really matters.

It's not as satisfying as when they beat the Brits (nothing could be ), but almost

You might change your mind if ever Le Boche learn to play Rugby.

Kemara,

you wrote:

Currently live in the land of the bigger longer white cloud of Australia, grew up in Hamilton, the Wahine is from Mahia.

Yes, I saw from one of your other posts that you are in "West Island." I was there for 17 years, currently in Ngaruawahia.

The sweeping all encompassing generalizations of white American LDS and their unquestioned bigotry is downright ridiculous. I know many, as most rm

[Del March]

They tell me that everything French is either illegal, immoral or fattening.  Does that mean that most French people who make it to Heaven will be on the portly side? 

Yep But so will you once we start teaching you the Art of Gastronomy

Just the idea of all those different kinds of foods that I have never yet tasted makes me hungry...

In fact, it's quite exhilarating to see Les Bleus beat the mighty All Blacks.

Which, let's face it, doesn't happen very often.

Well, that's precisely why it's so exhilarating

The All Blacks usually win--unless it really matters. 

Les Bleus are pretty good at that too It's almost a national sport as to which team will disappoint most when it really matters: the Soccer team or the Rugby team. But sometimes they do give us good surprises. That's why we still love them

It's not as satisfying as when they beat the Brits (nothing could be ), but almost

You might change your mind if ever Le Boche learn to play Rugby.

I'm not sure exactly who you are referring to, but if it is who I think it is, then I have to warn you that this term is terribly offensive nowadays. The use of this term to designate them would be akin to the example you gave:

I had one missionary companion from Idaho who called Brazil nuts "n*gg*r-toes."  It probably never even occurred to him that black Americans (of whom there weren't very many in Melbourne) would be horribly offended by that.

But they would make good rugbymen for sure. Especially in the third part of the game

Del

[Kemara]

Yes, I saw from one of your other posts that you are in "West Island." I was there for 17 years, currently in Ngaruawahia.

You live in Ngaruawahia! What a small world, is Willie still the Bishop and how are Dale and Kim and their brood going, Chris and Melissa? It seems almost a life time ago that I was in the Ngaruawahia ward, you got some terrific people there, all shapes and sizes, all colours and races, some rich and some poor. You must give me a run down on how everyone is going.

Did you live in Melbourne? If so where abouts, myself and my family haunt the halls of the Cranbourne Ward in the Braeside Stake, formerly of the Berwick Ward of the Pakenham Stake.

[KevinG]

I'm going to go out on a loooong limb here, and hope I don't offend my friends but I think it might be time for a primer on diversity, culture and racism.

All cultures are xenophobic to an extent... that is they fear what is different or have trouble processing differences. The Latter-day Saints are no exception, especially in a densely packed area like SLC or Provo or even California. We are so steeped in our own culture we don't see our quirks, or at least we don't have to process them all the time.

In the broader culture of Americanism, we have our own assumptions. God is My Refuge got castigated for discussing racism as a black-white issue (which is racisms primary face in America) while not discussing it as an issue of other groups (American-Maori, or other) in the broader world culture. I'm not sure that scolding someone for something that hasn't been on their radar screen is constructive. It's a mote beam issue, that bears discussing after we deal with our own beam, not accusing when we see anothers mote.

God is my refuge's experience of being a racial pioneer in a strange new culture is real, and yet she retains her testimony of the Gospel despite the fact that it's not handed to her on an easy chair. That takes guts and courage and ensures another generation from now, it will be eaiser for all brothers and sisters to accept and be comfortable in the culture that has developed in the Church. Her relative awareness of other racial divides does negate her difficulties in our strange new culture, and telling her she's racist doens't help her deal with racism that exists against her.

Racism is a charged word, and hopefully we can take some of the sting out of the issue se we can deal with it intelligently.

When we open ourselves up to new ideas and cultures it takes time to assimilate them and take in what is good about them because it is different. The Freedmens bank records, the revelation declaring we should not discriminate on the basis of race, Gladys Knights Gospel music tour are all public and constructive moves to let the world know we truly value a diverse popluation and that the Gospel is for all people.

Individuals try to be open minded and not discriminate, but they are still products of their own culture and past, and in a culture such as ours where change happens slowly, this can be an impediment to positive change as well as a protection from radicalization. On the other hand I do see very positive trends. When I visit homes with the Elders, few things will stop a discussion quicker than a racist outburst by the investigator. It's not consistant with the Spirit of the Gospel and the missionaries recognise that. More and more bothers and sisters of color are joining us and are no longer treated as a curiosity.

The Church has a culture of its own, that values unity as well as agency. This creates a paradox for those coming in, especailly when they are visibly different. There were many times when my white european looks, clad in a blue suit and white tie had many mistake me for a life time member and returned missionary. It allowed me to blend in and hide my differences when I wanted to. But someone who is truly different on their face and arms, cannot hide their identity so easily, and face everything from hostility to curiosity to condescention. Even well meaning Saints can be condescending by assuming someone is a convert because they are black, or assuming someone grew up in the Church because they are from Utah, etc.

The bottom line is this... Being in a majority group I don't have to do the mental homework of "Did they say that because I'm (fill in the blank) or because of other reasons?" For example, I never had to wonder if certain young women wouldn't date me because of my color, I just knew it was the Returned Missionary thing. If I were black, there would always be the question in my mind if it were the RM thing or my color that discouraged them.

In several cases here God Is My Refuge was told that some young men in the Church often fear independant women (which is foolish in itself), but that doesn't mean the question of race isn't still there for her. It's a part of her existance as a minority, just as it would be for us (by us I mean anglo-americans) if we suddenly relocated to India and tried to find a mate.

Our best hope is that we keep our heads about us while we mix with new cultures and faces, so that our children don't have the same issues we do. The pioneers must be courageous and forgiving, and we must be open to their concerns and not dismiss them just because our xenophobia is not intentional.

In this case she never accused all of us of being intentionally racist, it's just built into the majority/minority dynamic. So a counter charge of "oh yeah you do to" doesn't solve the problem, it's only hurtful.

I hope I'm not being condescending to minorities in the Church or too critical of anyone else, but for once I have some expertise in an area that is too politically charged in our American culture, and hope that sharing it here will shed light on majority/minority issues while taking the egos and defensiveness out of them.

[YH8]

I'm extremely hesitant to get involved in this discussion (and maybe it'll become more clear as to why as one reads on, but . . .

1) I am not a member of an ethnic minority group in the US.

2) While it may not be very common where I live (I actually don't know how common it is or isn't around here), I was at the temple last night and there was at least one interacial couple there. There may have been one or two others, I'm not sure if the other two ethnic "minority" (I'm not sure I like the word minority) people that were visibly identifiable (and that I noticed) were married to each other, single, or married to someone else.

3) I've been told by a close, dear friend, who happens to be African-American, that race is a term that is not appropriate to use. It is a fabricated term developed in association with the US Census. Ethnicity is the term to be used. Makes sense to me.

4) I have had many conversations with my friend mentioned in #3 about ethnic-related issues. On many occasions, I came away from those discussions feeling extermely depressed, discouraged, and even despondent. While I recognize this was my experience with one person, I'm guessing that his views were not necessarily rare among his community. He was/is involved in social science-related research and showed me a survey commonly used to assess African-American cultural identification. I was shocked and horrified at some of the questions I saw. (I'm not being overly dramatic here, but trying to give honest descriptions of my feelings and reactions) Following my conversations with him regarding ethnic issues, I fear how far we have to go in this country before ethnic-tension will go away. It appears it will be a gradual thing over generations. Hopefully, it will go quicker than that. If not, we are in for a rough ride.

[Refuge]

I'm typing my final, long response to this thread, but I wanted to touch on Kemara's imaginings for a second, as I keep finding things in here that I never said, Moksha never said. How can you INSIST something you didn't say?

What I find so offensive is that persons on this board are not sensitive to my culture and my colour. By insisting that that an Apostle of colour excludes all other colours except that of an African heritage smacks of racism and a shows a lack of cultural sensitivity to me, my dark skinned wife, my dark skinned children and my very dark skinned Father.

Where did I insist that an Apostle of color excludes all other colors? I just wondered when the 12 and first presidency wouldn't be all white.

I also got my personal email bombarded by rhetoric from this individual, telling me how un-Christian and dogmatic I am. Not to mention racist. I find it hurtful and sick. I just wanted to make that known.

My final post will be nothing but a repeat of all that I've said here, combined with my testimony. I do not believe that God is behind the lack of cultural sensitivity in this church. God loves everybody...so should man. To call someone racist because they just want to see that their people aren't tucked away where they can't be seen by those who are less comfortable with their existence in the church is....well, sick.

[wenglund]

I'm typing my final, long response to this thread,

Hi GIMF,

In reading back through your posts on this thread I am getting a sense that the "race" issue is symptomatic or secondary to a more deep-seated issue that is really at the heart of your "sorrow".

Oddly enough, I believe it is an issue that I face, myself, as a white male--though it has manifest itself symptomatically in other ways. (I am not refering to our both being single person of marital age with little or no prospects in sight (I believe I have more than a few years on you)--though that, too, is symptomatic. It goes even deeper than that.)

And, I am sure that others are experiencing the same thing. In fact, I am fairly certain of it.

I don't have the time right now to even touch on what I am referring to, but over Conference weekend I hope to start a thread called Healing Our Sorrows and Pains. (No...it is not so much about casting our burdens upon the Lord, nor about repentance, or even service--though such can be of healing help. It is more about changing the way we think.)

I would be pleased to have you join me on that thread so we can perhaps work through our shared core issue together, and eliminate, or at least learn to manage in healthy ways, our sorrows and pains. Besides, I think you have a keen mind and a wonderful heart, and your input will be of immense value.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Refuge]

Wade,

In a sense, you are right. Rejection is the issue. I've dealt with it all my life, why here in God's true church? I sometimes think that perhaps there is no such thing, for to me, behavior reflects belief.

I appreciate your willingness to see the goodness behind the gripe. For I do gripe, one thing people will not see from me here, is denial of the faults I know I do have. I shall join your thread this afternoon, if time permits, and if not then, monday. Mom guards the internet like it's the ark of the covenant, and it's hard to concentrate when she's always "are you done yet?". I'm like GOODNESS, LADY!!!

Blessings,

GIMR

[Refuge]

Forgive the massive legnth of this post.

To all who have been kind and understanding on this thread, I would like to thank you so much, you give me hope, and sustain my faith in the kindness of mankind. For I do not have much due to experiences had. To every person who has insinuated that I do not give service, or practice pure religion, that I whine, or wallow in self-pity, I would like to extend a vote of thanks to you too. You show me what to avoid in man and in this church. So thank you. Every inaccurate word you say provides a red flag that I can use in the future. Thank you.

I see that for the most part, many are not going to face this issue. It is easier to call ME racist (when they have no idea what I've dealt with as a fair-skinned woman of color all my life), than to actually listen to what I say.

I am positively sick to my stomach, in tears that someone would dare to call me racist. I have never discriminated when making friends, when dating men, when serving anyone. But I have had people refer to race on the job, in my family; even in the streets....I combated it successfully all my life. I don't know why Satan is using this to trip me up now. But I AM NOT RACIST. So those who want to hurt me with this, I won't let you. I see the caliber of individuals mixed with the good folk on this board, and I can't stand to be around you. I see that many would rather insult than understand. But I will tell my story before I leave, and you think to yourself why in God's true church, such things should exist.

I was born to "black" parents, but I look like a "white" person with a tan. My father is who I look like, he was fair-skinned, with beautiful hazel eyes, and blond hair. His side of the family is Irish, African, and Native American. My mom's side is of mixed heritage on the paternal side, but they weren't good record keepers, like my dad's side of the family, so I don

[wenglund]

Wade,

In a sense, you are right. Rejection is the issue.

Yes...that is certainly part of the "sorrow" equation. But, I think it goes even deeper and/or broader than that.

As a teaser for what is to come in the thread: we live in a pretty srewed-up and often upside-down world these days, where somethings just don't make sense no matter how hard and which way we try and think about them. Such things can threaten our very survival if we don't find ways of "salvation." And, too often we resort to unwittingly alienating and destroying the very things needed for our survival. In the immortal words of Pogo: "We have met the enemy and he is us." ( http://www.igopogo.com/we_have_met.htm )

I look forward to your participation as soon as I put the thread together--probably tomorrow or Sunday.

In the mean time, tell your internet-Nazi of a mom to Chill. ;-) (Just kidding, of course. Your mom is probably one great lady, and she has you as evidence thereof.)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Del March]

In a sense, you are right. Rejection is the issue. I've dealt with it all my life, why here in God's true church? I sometimes think that perhaps there is no such thing, for to me, behavior reflects belief.

That's not exactly true IMO. Behaviour reflects understanding and imperfection.

Some people believe that all men are equal, but they don't understand that using some words or exhibiting some behaviours goes against that belief.

Some people believe that all men are equal, but because they are imperfect beings they don't live up to that belief.

I think that most LDS truly mean it when they say they want to obey the second great commandment: love thy neighbour. Their intention is pure, their belief is total. But they, we, have big problems applying that intention in our lives. Sometimes we are aware of it, and we try to change it, even if we keep hurting people. And sometimes we are not even aware of it. But still, our intention is pure.

Del

[Kemara]

I also got my personal email bombarded by rhetoric from this individual, telling me how un-Christian and dogmatic I am. Not to mention racist. I find it hurtful and sick. I just wanted to make that known.

After my first post on this thread I recieved an email from GIMR requesting that I respond to further questions as were outlined in her email to which I replied with the following email:

"I will address you questions as soon as I am able to give it the

thorough attention it deserves

[Bikeemikey]

don't go dissing on the All Blacks...

[The Mormonator]

Last I checked, WHITE is a color.

I am a honky and I consider myself to be a person of color.

Why does there have to be "whites" and then "people of color"???

Aren't we all people of color?

[KevinG]

Getting defensive isn't going to help in any dialogue.

If both sides of a discussion insist that they are heard first then neither side will be heard.