Apostle of Color

[Del March]

You think the only people who are people

Are the people who look and think like you

But if you walk the footsteps of a stranger

You'll learn things you never knew you never knew

Including what it's like to be racist, what it's like to be scared of those who are different, what it's like to be scared of those people who look and sometimes talk like those violent people seen on TV, and so on.

No white person will ever know what it is like to be Black... But no Black person will ever know what it is like to be white.

No white person will ever know what it is like to be Black and to read that the Nephites were "white, pure and delightsome"... But no Black person will ever know what kind of intoxicating pride a white person can experience when reading the same thing.

The rich don't know the misery and anguish of being poor... But the poor don't know the feelings of guilt and the moral questioning that can come to some rich.

None of us knows that it is like to be in anyone else's shoes. We don't know how other people feel about what they do or say. We don't know how much regret some experience after having said or done something discriminatory. We don't know how ashamed some are of their pride. We don't know the moral dilemmas some priviledged people endure for being born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

Each of us has their cross to bear. Let us not judge that some crosses are easier to bear than others. Is it easier to be discriminated against, or to have a discriminating tendency? Which of those two crosses is most likely to keep one from entering God's kingdom? Which one threatens the salvation of our souls most: being proud, or being forcefully humbled? Let's not forget the ultimate reason we are on Earth.

If we don't want to be judged unrighteously, let's not judge unrighteously either. If we want to be forgiven, let us forgive. And if we want to receive peace and love, let us give peace and love.

Del

[Refuge]

I see that for a small few of you, my words have been delegated to "whining". You refuse to listen to what I say, and chock all this up to God's doing. I feel sorry for you come judgement day, for the spiritual blood of many that will be on your hands. You will have to explain to God why you felt it okay to sit by and do nothing whilst others didn't feel the community that is supposed to be church in their own wards. I would like to elaborate, but that will have to come later. I have to work. See you at lunch.

[Refuge]

You know what, Yo mama. Congratulations on being the only human being on this earth to feel different, ever, in the history of time.

How very mature. Obviously you know what it feels like to sit and listen to all the persecution of the saints, whilst no one pays a bit of attention to the persecution that goes on TODAY under their noses, because half of them silently take part, and the rest are just to afraid to do anything about it. Tell me, in your ward, do they speak about the black pioneers?

A friend of mine put it so well. We are permanent visitors in our own wards. Mama that. See, this is what I'm talking about! This is why I don't trust my own spiritual kin, because if you do anything other than tow the line, it's YOUR PROBLEM, YOUR FAULT, YOUR DOING.

What happened to "stregnthen thy brethren"? Are there escape clauses to that?

This is why I hate being around mormons. The fear permeates me. I don't know who I can trust, I don't know who would be like this person, if given the chance. I hate that. This is my church, too. Why sould I have to fight to belong? Oh, I forgot. Don't fight. But don't defend your honor, either.

[mom4life]

I am surprised there isn't a GA of color. The catholic church has had canonized saints and Bishops of color for 2000 years. Cardinal Arinze of Nigera may just turn up to be the next Pope. (there is speculation in some circles that he will be called to be) He is a wonderful Cardinal by the way.

[Refuge]

GIMR (sorry for the initials)

No problem, people call me that all the time.

experiences we have do one of two things - soften our hearts (ala Neal Maxwell and his severe acne or the poor in the BOM) or exacerbate anger, hate and bitterness.

I feel I have a right to be angry, I am naturally bitter, because that's what unnecessary pain does to you, but I do not hate.

I despise the phrase "you don't understand what I've experienced" because we are ALL human and are capable of empathy

Excuse me while I laugh, not everybody can empathize with me, or I with them. That's why there's SYMPATHY, simply feeling sorry, and EMPATHY, knowing the tenor of someone's pain.

- your experiences with bigoted members is no worse than mine

But you excuse it and blame your own race, calling them "volatile". Our experiences are very different. I see the problems with my people, but that is no excuse for racism.

-I suspect I have been on this earth a few years longer than you and have had several more negative experiences with members than you - please don't get into a "I am more rejected than anyone else" it is counterproductive and whiny.

Oh, and a "I'm older and wiser than you" stance is really humble and thought-provoking. Yeah.

My point, which seemed to go right over you,

You had me until "volatile" (in other words, violent)

was even with those bad experiences, there are more people who have the proper view of who each of us is regardless of color and those experiences count for more than those negative ones.

The ratio of LDS that I have come across that actually think before speaking, not just on message boards but in real life is not balanced in the favor of your views. And I'm not alone, i've heard others say the same things. But you cannot help those who willingly scratch out their own eyes.

Satan is raging on the earth today

When hasn't he been? Point?

- the one thing he has proven to be the most successful at than anything else (IMO) is in causing us to take our eye off the ball

You dont know where my eye is.

and focus our attention on THE THINGS THAT DON'T MATTER THE MOST.

"if ye are not one, YE ARE NOT MINE". Cultural ignorance and racism is a problem. You can blame it on the people who are your own, or you can fight it.

In the end when I face my Eternal Judge and I whinge about how I was treated by others re: my color,

How dare you assume I would do that? I see that you cannot hold a discussion. You'd rather just insult.

I truly suspect He will look at me in amazement and ask, "You are truly telling ME about being rejected?"

Enough with being sanctimonious. How dare you insinuate that I would stand before my Lord and complain?

See, this is a problem. Don't ever express anything other than a testimony in this church.

[Refuge]

I see this is something that I need to write to a GA about. I haven't done it, because I'm afraid of seeing the recation (or just being ignored). THe church does what it sees it's leaders do, and if it's leaders aren't showing any integration in their ranks, if their leaders don't come out and SAY be accepting of people whose cultures are different, nothing's gonna happen.

I've had many sisters of color offer to sign my letter, so important it is to them that they have a chance at actually really being a part of this church. Obviously to some, it is of little consequence. Explain THAT to God.

[Refuge]

Kennego,

(trying to reply to all *smiles* I miss people)

I assure you that while some (perhaps many) leaders on the local level might not appreciate your frustration, the "powers-that-be" in Salt Lake City are not oblivious to it.

Why the silence, then? When will there be a talk at conference, when everyone is paying attention?

Yes, as a person of color, you do carry an especially heavy burden as a member of the Church; no, that isn't fair; but yes, the Lord knows you are (or can become) equal to it.

I often wonder, in the face of people who decide to blame me, or just ignore it. Am I really? I DO think about giving up...all the time. But when I left, the pain of knowing it was wrong almost did me in.

Yes, some of the reasons ascribed by mortal men for some of the things that have happened in the Church's history are anything but inspired. But yes, this is the Lord's Church, and yes, He is in charge. And yes, He does understand your struggles, and yes, He will hold those who deliberately and malevolently inflict pain on you as a result of your race accountable for their misdeeds.

I'm still working on my testimony of that. I look in the mirror sometimes, after coming home from church, and I wonder if people's views of my people, and what they did to make them look the way they do is of God. All my life, in the face of racism, I never felt like I was a color. Now, every day I'm a black woman. Was this orchestrated to make me aware of who I am? My brother used to always tell me that I could not connect to my people. I can now. I'm trying to walk on faith, but there are days when I and others cannot walk because of this. When does it end? When we die?

Del,

Your words do make one take pause. I guess if I had a choice, I'd choose my cross. I think I shall print your post out to keep with me to read when I come across innocence (because that's what it is, some people just don't know) that injures.

And for the record, to the general populace on this thread. Just because someone speaks of pain, speaks of their feelings, doesn't mean that they are selfish, or not aware of others. Don't insult people like that. You don't know me, nor do you know how much I reach out to others. I'm not just speaking for myself here. Let's be more mature.

[Kemara]

This thread is personally very offensive and insulting it is such a sad experience for me. What I find so offensive is that persons on this board are not sensitive to my culture and my colour. By insisting that that an Apostle of colour excludes all other colours except that of an African heritage smacks of racism and a shows a lack of cultural sensitivity to me, my dark skinned wife, my dark skinned children and my very dark skinned Father.

Why do people complain about Apostles not representing the whole but then refuse to acknowledge me and my race as if we don

[Refuge]

You are not invisible to me. I'm sorry that speaking on behalf of African Americans who have spoken to me makes you feel that way. I just want the leadership as a whole to reflect the church as a whole. That does not exclude you. Where you got that from my words, I would like to know.

Are the participants of this board the example of how I am viewed and will be mistreated by African-Americans? Why are Maori invisible to you? I cannot handle the essence of who I am being denied me in my own church. If ye are not one ye are not mine.

Isn't your last line something that I said? So, because I didn't mention your people specifically, that makes me somehow racist against you? Please explain. How have I shown that I don't care about you? People of color means just that. Hispanics, Asisans, Blacks, Middle Easterners,.... even Maori.

So where did you get the idea that black people don't like maori?

I see this is getting nowhere. I don't even know why I speak sometimes. if it's not white people telling me I'm dreaming, it's people who jump into the discussion claiming that I don't "see them".

Yes, kennego I have stregnth for this.

[Refuge]

I think it is obvious that members of this board need racial and cultural sensitivity training in relation to Maoritanga, the benefits would be enormous. I suggest that these people should repent of their offensive comments and bigotry and champion the cause of having a Maori Apostle, to do anything less is to show total disrespect, lack of sensitivity and obvious unresolved racism against Maori.

Who made these statements? Obviously someone, as you are incensed. I think I shall go back and read a bit...and....nothing was said to insinuate that Maoritanga were somehow considered less than. And definitely not by me. So Kemara needs to come correct on that statement. Meet me before you assume that I would do anything other than welcome you with kindness.

People, simply saying that there is not a balance in church leadership when it comes to race doesn't make the people who make the statement bad at all. To play this down is wrong. Also, I looked on LDS.org, and only 13 talks had the subject of racism. Like I said before, people in the church see what they see headquarters do. The lack of emphasis on how wrong racism is, be it covert or otherwise, is evident in the fact that it's not spoken about much.

[Refuge]

I want to see more leaders of color in this church. We're not all pure, white, and delightsome. And I'm about as "cursed" as you see your own mom to be. I'm a good person, we all are. Why can't we have a voice?

If it's not my Gospel music being ushered out of sacrament by decrees from Salt Lake, it's th (I'm sorry, but it is) racist rhetoric in the BOM about skins of darkness. If it's not ignorant little white boys looking at me like I'm the daughter of Satan, its ignorant little white girls talking about my "velcro-y" hair. If these people were to see in their leadership someone who looked like me, oh SO MUCH would change.

Yes, it's about time for people of color to be up and visible in the leadership of our church. How about a black apostle? Too much for people to swallow?

Please forgive me for the racist undertones of my post. I love all colors, I'm made up of many. But not until I was baptized into this church did I have to face on a daily basis the color of my skin.

I would like to know if Kemara feels this is racist. Because I only said black apostle? How about Hispanic, or Maori? I don't care, I just want our leadership to reflect the church as a whole. And how is that testing God, as others have stated on this thread?

This is really getting strange.

[wenglund]

This is really getting strange.

That was my sentiments exactly--though regarding your posts.

Welcome to the other side of the artificial "race-card" fence. ;-)

I found it particularly ironic that after you questioned, on the basis of presumed silence (which I believe is an inaccurate perception), the awareness and sensativity of the Brethren to the "frustration" of people of your particular race, you said:

So, because I didn't mention your people specifically, that makes me somehow racist against you? Please explain. How have I shown that I don't care about you?

Furthermore, the problem with your quota system, aside from being patently racist and an upside-down management philosophy (micro-managing from the bottom up, where the servants dictate to God how he should run his kingdom), it is impractical and unworkable. There aren't enough GA slots to cover each of the racial/ethnic/cultural diversity permutations that exist in the world, let alone do so proportionately. So, in other words, at some point YOU will have to rule out certain groups of people from YOUR profile/quota scheme. YOU, unavoidably, will have to make a RACIST decision (which was, I presume, part of Komara's point).

All this can be avoided, though, by realizing the "color-blind" dream of Martin Luther King, of a day when people would be judged by the content of their hearts, and not by the color of their skin.

I believe that was an inspired dream, and that God is gradually making that dream come true within his restored gospel. He just need to get the color-centric folks like you and Moksha to see the light. ;-)

Having said that, I still want you to know that I love you.

Perhaps we all can learn something from how the saints of color in Africa view the gospel of Christ (having just recently emerged from the chains of Aparthied, as opposed to 150 years since the abolition of slavery and 40-plus years since the Civil Rights movement in the US). I don't see them going to a "place of sorrow" or publically lamenting the lack of a certain skin color among Church leadership. But rather, having shed the debilitating and often self-imposed victim status and self-pity, they seem liberated and empowered and filled with love and joy of the gospel, and are focused upon progressing in the Spirit and serving mankind. In short, they are practicing what has been referred to as "pure religion."

The same, I believe, is true (with few exceptions) of the Moari saints, the saints of various oriental heritages, Indian saints, hispanics saints, Escamo saints, and Mid-Eastern saints, etc.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Blink]

What is needed isn't necessarily a racially balanced leadership, IMO, although that would go a long ways towards solving the problem. But since we know that's not going to happen any time soon, what is needed is for our leaders to gain experience other than as WASM. Perhaps they could live in a different culture for awhile, not just on the outside of it when serving as MP. Get to know the people, get to know what hurts the people, acknowledge their own biases and cultural foibles, see how the past has effected the people.

Until I lived and worked closely within a Native American tribe, I had no idea how deeply their past effects their present and their future. In like manner, only by getting inside another culture for awhile, and leaving behind prejudices, preconceptions, and biases, can our leaders have any idea of what others' lives are like and how the church can help them.

Turning others into WASM clones isn't the answer. Cherishing the uniqueness of others' life experiences requires a broadening of experience that our WASM leaders don't have.

[Marcelo]

...

[Refuge]

That was my sentiments exactly--though regarding your posts.

I know. My fault, my problem, my responsibility, my dreaming about what I've experienced, all of that. Just take whatatimetolive's testimony. No, there is no racism against black people in this church. And I'm lucky, i guess. I almost pass. PErhaps someday someone will be able to shut their eyes long enough to marry me. Am I bitter? Oh yes.

Welcome to the other side of the artificial "race-card" fence. ;-)

Elaborate. This person came in and made an insinuation that I somehow would mistreat him. I have never said that all white mormons would or have mistreated me. I challenged him on his words, and he's "taking a day or two" to respond. Yeah.

I found it particularly ironic that after you questioned, on the basis of presumed silence (which I believe is an inaccurate perception),

Perhaps you don't notice the list of readers of threads at the bottom when you post? I saw quite a few. But I know, I'm just being irrational, everyone loves everyone regardless of color in this church. My experiences and those of my friends are a fluke. Or we're lying. I'm sorry.

"the awareness and sensativity of the Brethren to the "frustration" of people of your particular race,"

LDS do what they're told with regards to matters of the kingdom for the most part, right? There are 13 discussions on racism on lds.org. That says something to me.

Furthermore, the problem with your quota system, aside from being patently racist and an upside-down management philosophy (micro-managing from the bottom up, where the servants dictate to God how he should run his kingdom)

Yes, I'M racist, for knowing that God created me beautiful as I am, and hurting because some people cannot see that, and knowing also that if my church leadership reflected diversity, people who look to it for guidance might be more inclined to be more open to diversity themselves. Yeah. If I'm racist, I have two out of three races in me that I'm going against. Since I do not hate myself, that would make no sense. But instead of facing the issue, it's always easier to attack the messenger. Oh, and God isn't racist....but men are. And priesthood bans are. Jim crow was. And I feel like I check all that is unique about me at the door each sunday, because some people can't accept it! My music is banned, my people driven out, textures of hair made fun of, names ridiculed because they're not white enough. All by people who think they're justified because of what they've been taught. No, racism didn't begin with the church (and I've made that argument several times to anti mormons), but it sure hasn't come close to where it should be as far as an end here.

There aren't enough GA slots to cover each of the racial/ethnic/cultural diversity permutations that exist in the world, let alone do so proportionately.

So let's just let it be all white people, one black hispanic and a few asians? That's right? Ok...

So, in other words, at some point YOU will have to rule out certain groups of people from YOUR profile/quota scheme. YOU, unavoidably, will have to make a RACIST decision (which was, I presume, part of Komara's point).

Sorry, no dice. You cannot use that argument to cover my words. The presence of at least one person to represent each of the various races in this church would be more than nice. Maori included. The last time I looked at pictures of the seventy, I did not see that.

All this can be avoided, though, by realizing the "color-blind" dream of Martin Luther King, of a day when people would be judged by the content of their hearts, and not by the color of their skin.

If this church was so colorblind, women like me would not be marrying (in grief for our lost temple marriages) outside of it. I want to marry in my faith, but I will not be limited to just Africans (like it was once suggested to me). I want to date anyone who I could get along with. Was never a problem before I joined. And in a church where there is so much fear for those whose cultures you aren't well aquainted with (if need be, I'll come back and relay stories to you...you can think I'm lying or you can listen and take heed that this IS happening), mentioning Dr. King is laughable. Colorblind, my foot. If that were true, I'd be just as attractive as my white counterparts. The men wouldn't fear me. They do. Every smile I give is greeted with "shuffle and get away, go talk to the blond girl". I'm tired of being stared at like I'm a freak. Tired of seeing black women leave my ward and NEVER come back. And the majority of these kids are from Utah. They come out to work in the district, and bring their cultural ignorance with them. With only 1% of blacks (and who knows what the percentages are for other people of color) in Utah, what do they have to work with? They come to DC thinking that they're superior, and the surrounding areas (which they never move into) aren't like this. But I, like most other LDS am hemmed in by "ward boundaries".

believe that was an inspired dream, and that God is gradually making that dream come true within his restored gospel. He just need to get the color-centric folks like you and Moksha to see the light. ;-)

Oh that's real funny. You don't know me. You don't know what i've been through. As a child, I was the one in my family saying that I was a PERSON not a color. I was CONVINCED of otherwise 3 years ago. And haven't healed since. Why? Because every time I think that perhaps people can change....they don't.

Having said that, I still want you to know that I love you.

I feel it so accutely.

And my peers love me. In church, that is. Outside, I'm just "part of the world", and I go back to my "ethnic" and dangerous background, and they go back to their Zions where they're safe. My group of true confidantes in this church is small. I never know who's trustworthy. I've had enough comments about my culture to last me. And I know, it's all a dream or my fault, right?

Perhaps we all can learn something from how the saints of color in Africa

I have a friend from Ghana (who has just turned into a hermit because of how he's treated) who told me that many see the priesthood band for what it is....man's foibles. Don't try to speak for everyone. It's not good.

view the gospel of Christ (having just recently emerged from the chains of Aparthied, as opposed to 150 years since the abolition of slavery and 40-plus years since the Civil Rights movement in the US). I don't see them going to a "place of sorrow" or publically lamenting the lack of a certain skin color among Church leadership.

The Saints in AFrica have a base, they have people of their culture to commune with, their practices and habits aren't nullified, they can commune with people who think like them, and understand them. African Americans are scarce, adn do not have them. Why is it always whining with people, when we speak of this? How do you know what they think? If you talk to them like you are to me, they're not going to say anything to you. Black Americans do not have the cultural base in the church that Africans do. The West African Mission is HUGE. But in spite of all they DO encounter when they come here (because believe me, well you won't, but people do talk to me, they encounter racism too. but they have a home! I do not), it's their testimony...and mine, which keeps us here. But it's not easy. How do I reconcile possibly not having what you can? A temple marriage, exhaltation? Do I have to wait until I die for God to work that out? Why is God not punishing mankind as a whole for the sins of Adam, but black people got punished for the sins of Ham? Or was it Cain? The false doctrine gets mixed up in my head.

But rather, having shed the debilitating and often self-imposed victim status and self-pity,

Laughable in the face of all the times I hear about persecution of mormons. Utterly laughable. I am not a victim, that is why I speak out. I left a victim, I came back and took back my membership. Now I'm gonna take my right to be a full member of this church, and have the same blessings as everyone else, and NOT be limited by someone else's views of my color. I am not a victim, but I won't be a silent sufferer either, because people refuse to listen.

they seem liberated and empowered and filled with love and joy of the gospel, and are focused upon progressing in the Spirit and serving mankind. In short, they are practicing what has been referred to as "pure religion."

So I take it, that by expressing pain over an injustice, makes me not serve others, not care about mankind? Thanks. The above could be said for people who can only see color. But I forgot, that's just me and Moksha, right? Yeah.

The same, I believe, is true (with few exceptions) of the Moari saints, the saints of various oriental heritages, Indian saints, hispanics saints, Escamo saints, and Mid-Eastern saints, etc.

And I do not disagree with you on that. But is it wrong to ask for equal treatment?

I'm just shaking my head at the hopelessness of this. Really. By speaking out against racist treatment that I and other AFrican Americans have recieved, I'm not exercising "pure religions". Honey, Jesus said love your neighbor. Some I have come across put "white" before neighbor. So we're supposed to just not say anything?

Ok.

[Refuge]

Cherishing the uniqueness of others' life experiences requires a broadening of experience that our WASM leaders don't have

THANK YOU BLINK!! Many on this thread don't get this. They call you "self pitying" for simply asking for it. I agree, an apostle of color isn't going to happen, because in dealing with racial matters, we're a generation behind. But I'm not supposed to say that, that's tantamount to challengeing God.

I asked God. God loves me as I am, and expects His church members to do the same.

But I've trashed the thread enough. I'll leave everyone to think that "all is well". Aparently, to say otherwise makes YOU a racist. It's so hopeless. Perhaps when my grandchildren attend, such attitudes will be dead.

[heavymental]

If that were true, I'd be just as attractive as my white counterparts. The men wouldn't fear me. They do.

Beauty comes from within... You seem to assume you aren't attractive to men, because of your skin color. I would say they don't find you attractive because you seem to have axes to grind because of some pretty ignorant members of the Church.

Yes some people in the Church are ignorant to the ways of the world, but you can't place blame on leadership for the foolishness and lack of common sense of its members.

[Refuge]

Oh yes I can. When I see talks given by GAs of old that speak of my people in a negative light, and then I see it's men act that out, I can.

You seem to assume you aren't attractive to men, because of your skin color.

Only mormon men so far. I didn't have this problem 3.5 years ago. Will people stop assuming that it's JUST ME and read what I'm saying?

[pchan]

All

I have kept up the best I can with this thread, beacuse I think we all can learn from what is being said. I also think we all agree much more than our sometimes hasty words would make it seem. My inclination becasue I am a man is to try and fix it if it is broke(after my wife tells me the tenth time) I am sure that at times in my life I was that guy who offended others who were not feeling accepted for who they are. I have been blessed however to have married a woman that prior to my marrying her hung primarily with people of color(black, polynesian, hispanic & native american) and her influence has helped to shape me to see less color and more of what lies in ones heart. I am grateful for that, but I like everyone else am not perfect.

Let's be honest with ourselves we as humans are more comfortable around others that are like us. Not just in skin color, but culture likes dislikes and the whole gambit of things that make us who we are. Some of us have had more opportunity to mix with others than others have. Bottom line is we all have to be more aware of others and more forgiving of others. We all carry different loads but thay all get mighty heavy without having someone we love to bolster us up. Whenever I feel either discouraged or too prideful the same scripture tends to bring me back to reality. D&C 122 I put my name in place of Joseph's and by the time i get to the last verse I am back on track.

Samantha a suggestion to you would be sit down one night when you have the time and the right frame of mind and write short article about how we as saints can individually become more understanding tollerant and loving of those who are different than ourselves. Read it through pray about it change it as the spirit dictates to you and then submit it to the Ensign. even if it does not get published my feeling is that if you take the time to try and write it from your heart and in a way that would help the saints to learn as if the Saviour himself had written it the least that you will get from it is confirmation that he understands and loves you. MAybe we will all be blessed to read it in an upcoming Ensign.

[Kemara]

You are not invisible to me. I'm sorry that speaking on behalf of African Americans who have spoken to me makes you feel that way. I just want the leadership as a whole to reflect the church as a whole. That does not exclude you. Where you got that from my words, I would like to know.

Are the participants of this board the example of how I am viewed and will be mistreated by African-Americans? Why are Maori invisible to you? I cannot handle the essence of who I am being denied me in my own church. If ye are not one ye are not mine.

Isn't your last line something that I said? So, because I didn't mention your people specifically, that makes me somehow racist against you? Please explain. How have I shown that I don't care about you? People of color means just that. Hispanics, Asisans, Blacks, Middle Easterners,.... even Maori.

So where did you get the idea that black people don't like maori?

I see this is getting nowhere. I don't even know why I speak sometimes. if it's not white people telling me I'm dreaming, it's people who jump into the discussion claiming that I don't "see them".

Yes, kennego I have stregnth for this.

First off let me apologise for taking so long to respond, the fact that I have to work, take my children to school, pick them up from school, cook, clean, fulfil callings, fix the car, fix the fence, deal with my bank manager amongst numerous other responsibilities I could not keep up with your demands and expectations on my time.

Obviously my attempt to show the irony of your position has failed, I should probably have known it would fail after the other attempts to demonstrate the hypocrisy and racism of your and Moshka

[Kemara]

I want to see more leaders of color in this church. We're not all pure, white, and delightsome. And I'm about as "cursed" as you see your own mom to be. I'm a good person, we all are. Why can't we have a voice?

If it's not my Gospel music being ushered out of sacrament by decrees from Salt Lake, it's th (I'm sorry, but it is) racist rhetoric in the BOM about skins of darkness. If it's not ignorant little white boys looking at me like I'm the daughter of Satan, its ignorant little white girls talking about my "velcro-y" hair. If these people were to see in their leadership someone who looked like me, oh SO MUCH would change.

Yes, it's about time for people of color to be up and visible in the leadership of our church. How about a black apostle? Too much for people to swallow?

Please forgive me for the racist undertones of my post. I love all colors, I'm made up of many. But not until I was baptized into this church did I have to face on a daily basis the color of my skin.

I would like to know if Kemara feels this is racist. Because I only said black apostle? How about Hispanic, or Maori? I don't care, I just want our leadership to reflect the church as a whole. And how is that testing God, as others have stated on this thread?

This is really getting strange.

Ahh well I think the answer is obvious and I quote:

"If it's not ignorant little white boys looking at me like I'm the daughter of Satan, its ignorant little white girls talking about my "velcro-y" hair."

Thank you for this loving example of racial profiling, racial assumption, racial pigeon holing, a broad sweeping all inclusive racial statment.

Actually GIMR you admit that this statement is racist and I quote:

"Please forgive me for the racist undertones of my post."

This really is getting strange.

[Pahoran]

Kemara,

kia ora, cuz! Whereabouts in Aotearoa are you?

And where did you find that wharenui avatar?

God_is_my_refuge/Samantha,

I think Kemara was being a bit tongue-in-cheek there. I'm fairly certain that his/her real argument was something along the lines of there doesn't need to be an ethnic Maori apostle for the brethren to be aware of the interests and needs of the Maori people, or even of the tikanga (truths, values) of maoritanga (loosely translated as Maori-ness, something like "Maori culture" but more encompassing.) I don't believe s/he genuinely believes you think the Maori people are "less than." I'm more inclined to think that you might have trouble (as most Americans do) even finding New Zealand on a map. And, were I a betting man, I'd wager you've probably never even heard of the mighty All Blacks. (How's that for an intriguing name?)

In your defense, I would point out to Kemara that the Maori experience is not the same as the Black American experience. Black Americans seem to have a more deep-seated emotional need to see "our people" in visible, prominent positions than Maori and Polynesian people do.

That said, I would go on to add that the Maori experience has its own unique trials and difficulties. Your particular combination of circumstances may not be exactly like those of any other significant group, but that doesn't mean that they are so much greater. They are just different.

You wrote:

Why the silence, then? When will there be a talk at conference, when everyone is paying attention?

I think there have been.

I went to the Church website and found quite a number. For instance:

We have to rid ourselves of religious, racial, or social prejudices and expand the boundaries of our service.  (Hans B. Ringger,

[Del March]

And, were I a betting man, I'd wager you've probably never even heard of the mighty All Blacks.  (How's that for an intriguing name?)

You're kidding There are people who don't know the mighty All Blacks?! There are people who've never seen them do their whatever-it's-called (can never remember ) before each game? I pity those people, because it's quite a sight !

By the way: is there any particular reason they chose the colour black?

Del

[KevinG]

Oh yes I can. When I see talks given by GAs of old that speak of my people in a negative light, and then I see it's men act that out, I can.

You seem to assume you aren't attractive to men, because of your skin color.

Only mormon men so far. I didn't have this problem 3.5 years ago. Will people stop assuming that it's JUST ME and read what I'm saying?

We have several mixed race couples in my Stake here in Atlanta. They are among the most active and visible in the area, and only very few have a problem with it. Racism does exist, but it is changing. When the revelation of 1978 came about it was predicted that their would be an exodous from the Church, yet a generation later the opposite is true. The Church is learning to embrace different colors and cultures in North America.

I sometimes think it's easier for us in the South because the racism is dealt with openly. The 50's and 60's sort of beat the denial out of the culture here (yahoos and rednecks notwithstanding).

I have often told my chidlren I don't care if I get brown, pink, yellow or green grandbabies as long as they are born in the covenant, and their parents honor each other.

I cringe when I hear about the experience of many of my brethren and sisters who are different in any way. Peace and patience, we will come about. The living Prophets are teaching us better. We are slow to change our bad habits, but the Lord will bring us about.

As far as the topic. I think we will see many more Apostles in the future who reflect the converts of today, but given the age and experience of Apostles these days it may be a few more decades.

Until then you have my open invitation to share a beautiful American Gospel ballad in my meetings any time.

[Blink]

Oh yes I can. When I see talks given by GAs of old that speak of my people in a negative light, and then I see it's men act that out, I can.

You seem to assume you aren't attractive to men, because of your skin color.

Only mormon men so far. I didn't have this problem 3.5 years ago. Will people stop assuming that it's JUST ME and read what I'm saying?

I submit that your skin color might be one of the reasons you don't have any dates with LDS men, but I'm not sure it's the biggest reason.

ALERT: gross generalization are about to be made. Proceed at your own risk.

From what I've observed, most young LDS men are looking for a certain type of LDS girl. That you don't usually fit what they're looking for isn't anything to do with your looks so much as it has to do with your style. They're often looking for a meek and mild, priesthood-supporting, never-have-her-own-opinion, cavewoman-let-caveman-be-important-provider, future-wifely types that will tell them how wonderful they are, how strong they are, how much they look up to them, bear the children and never question the man's authority. You don't strike me as that kind of LDS woman. Physical beauty has little to do with it. What you need to find is an out of the ordinary LDS man to compliment your out of the ordinary LDS woman-ness. They're out there, you just have to find one. And when you find him, ask him if he's got a brother, because I know a young woman who is very like you who is saving up to adopt a child because she's certain she's never going to find a LDS man who is strong enough to let her be herself and she desperately wants to have a family.