Apostle of Color

[Moksha]

When I think about it, that was one of the nastiest replies I have ever read on the internet. The correct Christian thing to do is to forgive you and I do, but I must say that approaching people with love and understanding is always preferable to skewering them with your sword or your words.

[dragonslayer]

When I think about it, that was one of the nastiest replies I have ever read on the internet. The correct Christian thing to do is to forgive you and I do, but I must say that approaching people with love and understanding is always preferable to skewering them with your sword or your words.

Yeah, I kinda thought it was dirty,too.

[Kemara]

Kemara, the comments about letting go of racist dogma and embracing Christ is what got you shut down and barred from my personal email. Please do not twist the truth and make it seem like I have abused you. I am not like that. People may not like what I say, but be honest.

Ahhh, excuse me?? You said the following in direct reference to myself:

"I also got my personal email bombarded by rhetoric from this individual, telling me how un-Christian and dogmatic I am. Not to mention racist. I find it hurtful and sick. I just wanted to make that known."

I then shared with all board members the entireity of the three emails I sent you, (all in response to emails you personally sent to me) in order to debunk your false accusations of me bombarding you with hurtful and sick rhetoric.

If the truth be known it was you bombarding me with emails, 5 in total, containing justifications for your proposed racist practices. I stopped responding to you after I recieved your 4th email as I dont enjoy reading racist dogma and its attempted justifications and saw no point in continuing that line of discussion with you.

Now I am accused of twisting the truth and not being honest. Oh the irony of your accusations, just as ironic as your stance of curing allegeged racism with racism.

The truth is definately beting twisted, but it is certainly not being twisted by me. You may not like what I say GIMR, but be honest.

[Kemara]

The presence of a whites only section on the Conference dais stands out.

Please provide your sources, evidence, proof and/or anything which supports your position of their existing a racially segregated whites only section on the conference dais.

[Refuge]

Yeah, at this point I'm just....well, flabbergasted. The hostility coming from people just because there are those among us who wish to know that we're accepted, to see people like us helping to build Zion (we want to know that we MATTER, that we are doing more than just sitting here so the church can say, "see, we are diverse"), is disheartening. I want to see my people helping to make this work go forward.

Kemara, your own words are posted here. I do not know why you wish to continue to fight. You called me names, you insulted my Christianity. I will not engage you. As far as I'm concerned, you're on ignore. To insinuate that I would mistreat YOU because I asked to see one of my own visible in leading and guiding this church was the first arrogant mistake you made. Like I shut you down from bombarding my personal email with your vitrol, I am disengaging you on this matter. You have NOTHING to contribute to this obviously, other than contention and a desire to demean those you do not agree with.

[Refuge]

Dreams,

Your story about how you were treated growing up, I can relate to on many levels. It happened to me as well (especially when I was with my father in the South), but because I had such a wide variety of people to associate with, the sting wasn't as bad. I remember when Columbine happened, feeling smug as well as sad, because kids don't realize how cruel they are, until someone takes a weapon to them....it's horrible, both that the assailants can do such a thing, and that young people have not been taught to respect differences.

Here however, my sources are very limited. And I wonder sometimes if I should limit myself. We're supposed to marry LDS...supposed to, encouraged to...yet I wonder should I put myself through that grief. I want to be loved, and there are people out there who can do this.

My world has been crunched down (I feel) since I joined this church. Some of the most important aspects of who I am are in entwined in this faith...and I don't have much to work with, other than preconcieved notions and fear. I feel this should be changed, not only for myself, but for every LDS who is not of caucasian origin who sets foot in here. We can't all indoctrinate and conform....we're different.

I can also relate to your being mistreated by black people because of how you look. I wish I could show you all my baby pictures. Even a friend that I talk to online all the time, that I met for the first time the other day said I look lighter than I do in my pictures. I can totally relate to how many black people are way too focused on race. I think this is on part due to their parents, their fear, hostility stemming from a very valid source, Jim Crow, the journey that was the Civil Rights movement. I think that black people went from a ferverent desire to be free even willing to die for it in the slave days, to a sad resignation of the "way things were" post civil-war up to the Civil Rights movement, and from then on into the indignation and "black is beautiful" mentality of the Civil Rights movement up to today. Many of us black children are children of this last generation. I still see a lot of mistrust in my mom, and one day I witnessed two young black women who commented on a white woman bringing her dog into a bank. Down where I live now, they let you do that in the historic district, so long as the dog is tame. They stated that if THEY had done that, they would be mistreated. I, and the other older black women silenced such nonsense. I believe that for the most part, black people today do not deal with what our parents did. No one can by law deny us a job, a home, anything. Maybe that's why it never bothered me. Here in church, I can and have been denied fellowship, help, understanding. And it goes unchecked. What am I and what are others who suffer the same fate to do, other than speak out about it?

I am still of the belief that writing the First Presidency is a viable option. Many don't do it because they either don't think it's worth it, or they are scared. I am neither of these. If I am to have a real future in this church, I see I am going to have to fight for it. I'm not using my fists, I'm using my knowldege (and praying for it to grow as well) and my heart. I am a child of God, too.

[Refuge]

And might I add, that being aware of color does not make you racist. There are people who are FAR more ignorant of this subject than the people they malign who show more racist tendencies than those who simply ask to be seen.

Yes, I see color. Always have. I have tried to shut my eyes, but family, friends, the world is pulling my lids back up. Still, I would never refuse to date or befriend anyone based on color. I ask for the same respect from those who are supposed to be my church family.

[Blink]

The presence of a whites only section on the Conference dais stands out.

Please provide your sources, evidence, proof and/or anything which supports your position of their existing a racially segregated whites only section on the conference dais.

I think he's referring to place where the apostles sit.

[Kemara]

The presence of a whites only section on the Conference dais stands out.

Please provide your sources, evidence, proof and/or anything which supports your position of their existing a racially segregated whites only section on the conference dais.

I think he's referring to place where the apostles sit.

Is where the Apostles sit a racially segregated whites only section that Moksha says it is?

[heavymental]

I think what everyone is losing sight of in this entire thread is the Lord will call an apostle of color when the time is right. The "Church" doesn't assign them. Perhaps the membership of the Church who feel it is necessary should admonish the Lord in prayer to make that come about.

[Kemara]

Kemara, your own words are posted here. I do not know why you wish to continue to fight. You called me names, you insulted my Christianity. I will not engage you. As far as I'm concerned, you're on ignore. To insinuate that I would mistreat YOU because I asked to see one of my own visible in leading and guiding this church was the first arrogant mistake you made. Like I shut you down from bombarding my personal email with your vitrol, I am disengaging you on this matter. You have NOTHING to contribute to this obviously, other than contention and a desire to demean those you do not agree with.

You could not be any further from the truth, but then I dont think your terribly interested in the truth. I think it would be a good idea if you deal a little more in the world of reality instead of your unabashed use of gross exaggeration, misrepresentation, hypocrisy, irony, halve truths and deception.

If you don

[Kemara]

I think what everyone is losing sight of in this entire thread is the Lord will call an apostle of color when the time is right. The "Church" doesn't assign them. Perhaps the membership of the Church who feel it is necessary should admonish the Lord in prayer to make that come about.

This arguement has been used by myself and others over and over again on this thread. Unfortunately there are those who totally reject this position and wish to see racial quotas in relation to the calling of Apostles and believe they know better than the Lord Himself.

[wenglund]

So as you can see, I am now sanctimoniously self-righteous, arrogantly presumptuous, an established Mormon-basher, and a race-baiting stirrer for saying an Apostle of Color would benefit the LDS Church.

And yet, I don't feel that way when I go to Church on Sunday.

If all you had done was to simply suggest that an Apostle of color would benefit the Church, then you wouldn't have envoked the perceptions expressed about you by Pahoran and shared by me and others. You know this.

But, apparently, there is something preventing you from earnestly and honestly taking a look at yourself and your actions--preventing you from seeing that the very things you loath in others (some times mistakenly so), is pronounced in yourself. Being critical of others, and looking at them through the magnifying glass of disdain, keeps you from having to examine yourself in the mirror of self-analysis. It keeps you from seeing the things you really do not want to see about yourself, but are unwittingly exposing to the world.

I believe that I may be of some help with that issue (denial and/or projection), and in a way that will be safe and loving. If you would like to join me on the "Healing Pain and Sorrow" thread, I will be pleased to do whatever I can.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Refuge]

unabashed use of gross exaggeration, misrepresentation, hypocrisy, irony, halve truths and deception.

Proof, Kemara, before I report you for abuse.

[Refuge]

I see there is no getting through to some. I see that many believe God DID curse African Americans, and any call to have that denounced is "telling the Lord what to do".

I honestly question any church that would accept this. God is not racist, nor does he impose bans on racists, call his children "darkies" or abuse them because of what they look like.

People like Kemara are testimony liquidators. They tell you to your face that you "challenge the Lord" when you ask man to face his racist past. I honestly don't know if I have the stregnth to last in a church that reviles me. I am beautiful as I am, as are my ancestors. I wonder when I look around me each sunday, how many are truly like this?

How many?

[wenglund]

Yeah, at this point I'm just....well, flabbergasted. The hostility coming from people just because there are those among us who wish to know that we're accepted, to see people like us helping to build Zion (we want to know that we MATTER, that we are doing more than just sitting here so the church can say, "see, we are diverse"), is disheartening. I want to see my people helping to make this work go forward.

I see the hostility going both ways. It has become a matter of hurtful accusations and counter-accusations. Each side is looking to "fix" the other, rather than looking to "fix" themselves, and in the end only "breaking" things down all the more.

Isn't it time to heal? Isn't the best place to start the healing is with ourselves? (I am speaking as much here of myself as I am others.)

If so, I may be of some assistance at the aforementioned thread.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[koakaipo]

pahoran:

I actually cringed reading the first 40 posts or so, because the response to Moksha's assertion seems disproportional. You know why? Cause the reality is you and no one else on this MORMON(which should imply a sorta of community for a member) board knows his circumstances or his background or who he is. He could be a newbie convert with not alot of cultural assimilation to this church. He could be a member of color who is asking a PRETTY natural question-hey, why is this international church not so international looking in terms of it's leadership? Why everyone is acting like this is not a very ordinary thing to ask is beyond me and therefore makes me happy he brought it up in the first place. HE could be member who has the CLASS not to bring up this sensitive issue say like, in CHURCH on Sunday, and thinks this may be a safe environment to ask-an ANONYMOUS online MORMON community that he thinks he belongs to.

And he obviously felt comfortable enough to ask it quite pointedly. And what does he get in return? Everyone getting their panties into a twist over a pointed question. When did we Mormons get so squeamish really to DISCUSS things???? Come on, our pioneer ancestors dealt with alot of hardship and trials and still stuck together as a community- you think we modern Mormons could handle a dissenting thought or idea on an anonymous online forum. And you would think as fellow members our priority should be to discuss things out with fellow members, hash out ideas, until we can arrive at some understanding-mabye not agreement, but at least an understanding where someone is coming from.

I keep hearing "self righteous" and "arrogant" and presumptious being thrown at this fellow brother of ours as well. WHEN DID A DISSENTING IDEA BECOME AN ACT OF APOSTASY?

D&C 10:63 states that "I....establish my gospel, that there may not be SO MUCH contention". Obviously we don't want destructive or unnecessary contention, BUT we don't want an artificial harmony or a facade of homogenity either-there is always going to be a diversity in personality, in gifts, in perspective, and behavior of our fellow brothers and sisters in this church. I feel that this thread is trying to enforce harmony-you can't enforce harmony! Jesus showed us the only way to bring harmony about-that's through charity and love and fellowshipping.

Joseph Smith taught that through "contrarities, truth is made manifest." MAN, what a beautiful statement-it's through discussing things, hashing out things, pushing all contradictory constraints to their limit that truth is revealed to us. Not by passive observation or acceptance. Not by shutting someone down who says some that is dissenting, and then putting them in the corner like a naughty little boy. If we follow the prophet's spirit, that means we'd roll up our sleeves, and hash this out, and discuss the issue at hand. We try to understand why this concerns another, while not necessarily concerning ourselves, and vice versa. And we try to gain insight into others' ideas, instead of shutting them down.

One last quote from the prophet because you know, he was a very spirited leader who like to be engaged: "I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latter-day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their Church. I WANT THE LIBERTY OF THINKING AND BELIEVING AS I PLEASE. It feels so good not to be trammelled. It does not prove a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine." (History of the Church 5:340)"

Is there not a better way to deal with dissenting ideas? Joseph Smith sure thought so.

[Kemara]

It is offensive to me that abusers would mention Dr. King. Do not do it, as you do not understand this man.

[Refuge]

I'm not an abomination, and NO, God did not ever say so. The problem with the lack of African Americans in the church (which few want to face, they just want to push the problem back on us, as if it's our fault), deals directly with words from the pulpit about who and what we are and were before we were born. Until this issue is faced, there will be few of us, the "lore" will still be taught in homes (and it is), and people will still make meager excuses as to why we are not supposed to matter.

I am a child of the Almighty God. Demanding that this be known just like it's known that every other race in this church is that WITHOUT CURSES AND FALSE DOCTRINE ATTATCHED TO THEM is not racist.

I've said more than enough. People can ignore the truth if they want to. It hurts when you belong to a church that has IN PRINT awful things about you, and no one cares enough to face that fact. Look on the actual FAIR website about this issue, people. It's there! You cannot deny it! To blame us for wanting restitution is wrong. And in my opinion, evil.

On this issue, I will not take any consolation other than it being said by the leaders of church that what you will see on the main part of FAIR's site about us being "less than valiant", "seed of cain", "darkies" etc, is wrong.

Yes, I'm hostile. How would you feel if your people were once considered "less than" by your faith, and that myth has never been overturned? Would you stay in a place that upheld that? Does anyone understand the stregnth it takes to do this?

[koakaipo]

"I think what everyone is losing sight of in this entire thread is the Lord will call an apostle of color when the time is right. The "Church" doesn't assign them. Perhaps the membership of the Church who feel it is necessary should admonish the Lord in prayer to make that come about."

I don't think I'm losing sight on this, I just have a different perspective than you on the matter. I think the church leadership has a great sense of counsel among them-it's through that counsel that decisions are made. I think to say that God is "waiting" to call an apostle of color is not necessarily how I would say it. I don't think it's that monumental a thing to call an apostle of color at all-why would it be really? That's overstating the importance of skin pigment to me. I think the reality is that there alot of great members that are worthy of being apostles, and it's easy to find them in the heartland of Mormonism. I think that it will be through the "sweet council" of the leadership that one will be called.

[Refuge]

Kemara, prove that I've ever said that you cannot do anything because you are not black, without twisting my words.

I don't want you to use the words of Dr. King, because you are so cruel! You started out this way with me, and I have no respect for you. Not because of the color of your skin, but because of your blatant ignorance.

Dr. King spoke against the ignorance of people like you. NOW, I'm gonna stop speaking before the real GIMR comes out. You won't like her any more than you do the one you see.

My problem is not with your skin color. My problem is with this church's view of mine.

[koakaipo]

Kemara-just for clarification's sake, what I think other posters are alluding to is the yearly Ensign issue of the centerfold(hmmm, that doesn't sound right) picture of the church leadership, where basically everyone, save one Asian or a Latino perhaps, is non-Hispanic Caucasian. While this could be interpreted on a variety of levels(the makeup of the leadership), I don't necessarily think it's wrong to notice that, "hey, they are all white." I remember saying that to my mom when I was a little kid, cause you know, kids sorta just say what's on their minds.

[Refuge]

I am grateful for all the reasonable voices on this thread (due to emotion and much pain that I have experienced with regards to this issue, I most definitely am not...but that doesn't make me racist or off kilter, that makes me HURTING), especially the fresh wind of Koakaipo, someone who is very dear to me, someone that I've been blessed to communicate with for almost two years now. Moksha is also someone I'm sure I know better than many of you on here, and Koakaipo is right, many didn't stop to think WHO he was...they just lashed out. And those who did....injured him greatly. I've asked him not to come back for awhile, because of the way he is treated...most unfairly.

I rail at this issue, but I can handle it. Valleys I've seen before, and this one I will turn into a mountain for the people around me, so help me. If most of you do not care, that will be YOUR issue to deal with come judgement day, when there just might be the spiritual blood of another on your hands, because you refused to see him in the context of his journey. Being black in this church IS ONE HELL OF A JOURNEY.

[koakaipo]

PS-"Perhaps the membership of the Church who feel it is necessary should admonish the Lord in prayer to make that come about."

I totally agree with you on this point, and I want to qualify my past statements regarding your quote-I think through sweet counsel and prayer, changes come about, both for the leadership and the membership. And I think that we should take a cue from the leadership's emphasis on sweet counsel in regards how we deal with fellow members. Amen to your point.

[heavymental]

Being black in this church IS ONE HELL OF A JOURNEY.

I'm reminded of the scene in "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner", when Sidney Portier is talking with his father and tells him the difference between him and his father is his father sees himself as a black man, but Sidney sees himself as a man.

The problem of society in general is people tend to think in terms of color rather than in terms of humanity and the human race.

Being any color or ethnic background is a journey in all walks of life. Being a parent and divorced is no less a journey in a Church that is single minded in its belief on marriage and family.

Everyone has their crosses to bear, the question becomes do we bear those crosses with humility, with an eye single to following the Savior or do we cause as much dissent and discord with our fellow man?