Apostle of Color

[kurtlein]

I had expected an Asian or Hispanic apostle when the vacancies occured but as soon as President Hinckley announced the names of Elders Uchtdorf and Bednar the Spirit was so strong that I couldn't figure out how I hadn't thought of them before? I know it has been said before but the Lord calls the Apostles and there are no afirmative action committees to advise Him whom to call. For what it is worth I think Elder Uchtdorf's background in Europe gives him a very different cultural outlook and experience than those raised in the shadow of the everlasting hills. Elder Bednar was raised in a part-member family and has spent the majority of his life outside of Utah so he, too, has a different cultural background. The implication that because they are caucasion they have nothing new to offer is just as biased as racial slurs against people of colour.

[Pahoran]

GIMR/Samantha,

if ever you want to see the Church operating under non-white leadership, I suggest you come down here to New Zealand. You will see an awful lot of non-white church leaders at all levels, including my wife, the Relief Society President, and the paleface members cheerfully taking direction from the guys with the hereditary sun-tans.

You'll also learn that not all racial/cultural stereotypes are nonsense. Apart from Sacrament Meeting, just about everything starts half an hour late.

BTW, if the single guys where you live have normal eyesight, and your avatar looks anything like you, I can't imagine you having problems getting dates.

Unless, of course, they're going to be too intimidated to ask you out. It's almost a cliche that nobody asks out the prettiest girl in the ward because they're all afraid she'll just look at them and laugh.

On a more serious note: please don't think people are picking on poor victimised Moksha because we're "racist." We're picking on him/her because we can tell the difference between sincere interest and mere pot-stirring.

Don't assume, because someone pretends to care about you, that they really do. The whole history of the twentieth century shows how demagogues got people they despised to support them by pretending to champion their aspirations.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Bikeemikey]

So in response to all members originally coming from europe as posted below...

Europe might have a tiny fraction of the global membership, but if the vast majority of European converts hadn't emigrated to the USA at the beginning of the church, I suspect there would be infinitely more European LDS. How many American members actually descent from European-born-and-converted members?

Yes that may infact be somewhat correct - but to remind the poster - they were english irish - not that many French or Germans as far as i am aware - i am sure there were some but inproportion not many.

Kurtlein,

The implication that because they are caucasion they have nothing new to offer is just as biased as racial slurs against people of colour.

The fact they are caucasion means they have much to offer, but it also means that their backgroundand skin colour is representing a increasing minoirty within church demographics.

[Bikeemikey]

Lets get off the god said so topic and talk about ethic diversity like adults...please

To all who posted on this thread...

While you were all correct to remind us all that good decides what happens it was not at all interesting to here dogmatic gripes that missed the point.

The church is now larger in population outside the USA than it is inside the USA. Also the number of 'ethnic members' is around the same as the number of causian members. It is interesting that in conference it appears that only white leadership can be seen.

There are perhaps many good reasons for this - one of which is GOD -

I think god makes his calls based on information and appropriatness - thus one can predict revelation if they but enquire into the information accesable with the spirit and openness... should we feel we come to an answer however we still wait on God for revelation before we act.

Perhaps a better purpose for this thread would be to discuss why there are no coloured preisthood leaders in the 12 and none (or a small number) in other general leaderhip positions, instead of saying that we need some. It seems to me that time and demographics would yeild a rational acter to call more ethnic people - lets talk about cultural and social reasons why there haven't been many ethnic general leadership called yet.

Also two interesting things - both of the latest additions to the 12 apostles are both from Europe which has a tiny fraction of global members - also they have both resided in the USA for some time (as far as i can determine) and they are both white. Once again the newly called represent a tiny minority (demographically speaking). Of course they represent us all as apostles but that is not what this thread is addressing.

Finally the time of the black apostle is no where near here. If we are going to analysis this rationally choice according to representative capactiy would be logical - asain leaders and South American leaders, as well as Australian, Tongan and pacific Island leaders wouldl be a better choice than the Black american (demographically speaking).

Lets discuss this like it was apologetics - not a really immature sunday school lesson - i can get those other boring answers at church on sunday.

Really this is all about whether or not the church is American, Western, Anglo-saxon - or whether we want to think it is because that is our arrogrant background.

[Stormin' Mormon]

Just some random thoughts:

First, the original twelve did not come from "all walks of life" as someone claimed earlier. Eleven of them were from Gallilee, and at least four of them were fishermen. Many of them were related to another member of the group.

And second, I say give it a few years. As Del March pointed out early in the thread, the Revelation on Priesthood is only three decades ago. Those who were young men (and were thus just beginning in their leadership training) at that time are now only in their fifties. And these members, who have now had a lifetime to learn and grow, have raised up several more generations of priesthood leaders. It takes times to build up a large pool of experienced priesthood leadership, especially in populations starting from scratch.

The time will come when the pool of leadership available for general church leadership is more representative of the body of the church as a whole. But we're making progress. The Church has only been a truly international organization for a handful of decades. Let's have patience and the Lord will raise up righteous leaders from among the people.

[Moksha]

Stormin' Mormon, did you know that the "Wait till they have developed" argument was used for years in keeping Black folks from having the right to vote.

A year ago on another Website I proposed racial sensitivity training for members of the LDS Church. Perhaps I will start a similar thread here at a later date. The benefits that would be accrued from such training would be enormous.

For those who think that talking about such an issue is stirring a pot of trouble for the Church, rather than expressing my sincere caring about this issue for those involved and the Church, I can assure you that your enmity is mistaken and misplaced.

[wenglund]

I wonder why the Lord hasn't called an older, self-employed, never-been-married, slightly overweight person with a mostache and learning disabilities to be a member of the twelve?

If he doesn't call one in the next time or two, I will feel deeply wounded and under-represented among the brethren. It's time to end discrimination in the Church againts this class of people, and show that we care about them by taking God out of the equation as BikeMike suggests, and just do the adult diversity thing. Otherwise, if the make-up of Church leaders don't include people just like me, then how could the Church be true???

And, please...don't devalue what I just said for reasons that there aren't that many people in the Church who match my profile. That is a real minority for you. Besides, I won't be denied my victim status. It is all about ME. Who cares about serving mankind when the race/ethnicity/diversity card can be played to one's slef-centered advavantage? Where is your compasson PEOPLE!!! I need...nay, I demand your sympathy.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Del March]

but to remind the poster - they were english irish - not that many French or Germans as far as i am aware - i am sure there were some but inproportion not many.

Maybe, but even those few people who have meant A LOT of people NOW had they stayed in Europe. But they didn't. Instead, they went and increased the numbers of LDS in USA. Couple that with the fact that the missionary effort was discontinued for several decades in many countries in Europe, and it's really no wonder there are so few LDS in Europe. To put it simply: I have never heard of an old person in France having been born LDS. The oldest LDS families in France are barely reaching the fourth generation right now, and there are very few of them. Can you imagine the difference it would have made if those early French members, no matter how few of them there were, had stayed in France?

I don't know what the situation is in other European countries. Germany obviously had members when Elder Uchtdord was a kid, when France, as far as I know, didn't, so the situation was evidently different there. But I still suspect that the church is still quite recent in many European countries. So it cannot be compared with areas of the world where it has existed for 150+ years.

Del

[Bikeemikey]

Well Del March i am from the land of New Zealand where the church has been for along time nad none of us ever went to the promised land in the utha valley - and well there ain't a whole lot of members in the old NZ...

Some cultures aren't to receptive - perhaps thats just the luck of those we live with.

[Del March]

Well Del March i am from the land of New Zealand where the church has been for along time nad none of us ever went to the promised land in the utha valley - and well there ain't a whole lot of members in the old NZ...

I just went to The Cumorah Project. They are not completely accurate (they give one temple to France, for example, when we don't have any), but I guess they can give a good idea of what's going on in a country, LDS-wise. If you go there and compare France and New Zealand, you'll see that the numbers are simply not in the same range. New Zealand has comparatively MANY more members than France. Ever since as far back as 1976, it has had 3 times as many listed members as France has had, for a country whose population represents about a bit more than 1/20 of the population of France...

Some cultures aren't to receptive - perhaps thats just the luck of those we live with.

Many European cultures have a good reason not to be receptive: the Wars of Religion. France has dealt with this by becoming a completely secular country where religion is a very private thing. We don't easily discuss religion, and the LDS and JW missionaries (the only ones I've ever seen, though the EV are starting to appear on the market too) are seen as pretty weird and make quite a few people uncomfortable. Offering to discuss religion with a total stranger is seen as at least as misplaced as offering to discuss sex (possibly even more )

Not to mention, of course, that many people are born Catholics, and still consider themselves as such even though they know less about their religion than I do (and I don't know that much - about their religion I mean). They go to church twice a year maximum, but they are Catholics! Ah well

Del

[Stormin' Mormon]

Stormin' Mormon, did you know that the "Wait till they have developed" argument was used for years in keeping Black folks from having the right to vote.

I'm not sure how this is relevant. What I am saying is that the pool of potential leaders is not a function of present-day church population, but rather a function of church population from twenty, thirty, forty, or fifty years ago. Statistics for present day demographics do not tell you what percent of that population have been members for the last thirty years, served in leadership position, and proven to be experienced and faithful leaders.

For example, there are over 3.5 million members of the church in Latin America. But how many of these members were baptized in the last ten years? In the last twenty years? Leaders have to have time to grow, develop, and gain experience. I don't have the numbers, but I would bet that a large portion of the 3.5 million members in Latin America are fairly recent converts (baptized in the last ten years or so). The pool of potential leaders in Latin America are not drawn from the 3.5 million members who are on the rolls, but rather from a much smaller sub-set of the population--those who were baptized several decades ago, who have remained active in the Church, and who have served competently in leadership callings.

We have several examples before us of what happens when you draw upon leadership from too small of a pool. In Jesus' day, he called twelve men, one of which betrayed him. Of Joseph's original twelve, only two did not rebel agains him at some point. Even after arriving in Utah and growing our potential leadership pool, there were periodic bad apples. Nowadays, with a larger pool to draw from, we have not had to excommunicate or disfellowship an apostle since John W. Taylor and Matthias F. Cowley in 1905.

It will be several generations before the pool of potential leaders in ethnic populations catches up with the pool of potential leaders in White America. It's not a question of racism or demographics or race-based proportionality. Its a question of how long the gospel has been present in a population, and how long it takes to build up a suitably large leadership pool. Again, I say, give it some time. Have patience. It will happen.

[Refuge]

And, Samantha, I hope you can tolerate my bluntness here, but if it's the last thing I do, I'm going to dissolve that Crazyglue

[whatatimetolive]

Sorry I waited so long to post reply to GODISMYREFUGE on the subject of "Apostles of Color"(I realize many other topical subjects have been posted)but I printed out the posts and studied, pondered, etc. before posting comments.... I could write my bonafides on my understanding, emphathizing with your feelings, but why bother? I can really only give the benefit of my many years of being a member, feeling many of the same feelings and what I have learned.

Abraham 3:24

And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them....

Do you counsel God as to His timetable?

I was baptized only a few years after the revelation on the priesthood was given. I had never heard of Spencer W. Kimball, never seen him, never heard his voice when taking the discussions, but the 1st time I attended sacrament mtg 3 days before my baptism I listened to a sister at her missionary farewell speaking of him and the Spirit overwhelmingly testiified to me "this man is My prophet". I was privileged to attend a Conf. in SLC and hear S.W. Kimball speak and had that testimony renewed. He spent MANY years pleading with the Lord regarding blacks and the priesthood - The comment I have heard again and again with regard to that time (I have NO doubt it will be repeated when "Apostle of Color" is called) is "they only did it for political reasons.

I was blessed and privileged to meet Neal A. Maxwell and hear him speak of his personal experience of "activating the keys of the kingdom" in Ezra Taft Benson - the Spirit again bore unmistakable testimony that this man was the only legitimate, authorized person on the earth holding the keys of the kingdom -I also was privileged to hear Pres. Benson in the last Conf. outside SLC he spoke at and again had that personal testimony borne to me that he was God's prophet on the earth.

I knew Howard W. Howard carried forward those keys and authority, sat in the Tabernacle and watched Gordon B. Hinckley enter and the Spirit said, "This is My prophet."

Why do I mention these incidents and not my personal experiences in the Church re: my "color"? Because those testinonies I received about each prophet in their time reassured and comforted me that Heavenly Father is in charge and the person who is supposed to be in that position is.

D&C 58:26

For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things, for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant.

Members of the Church KNOW what they should do, and do not need SLC to always command them - (re: how to treat people of color or not) - I am sorry to say that your post regarding members taking their cue from SLC was extremely offensive to me, given my personal experience with G.A.'s. and also my experience with members who don't need SLC to tell them how to treat people - some knuckleheads in the church don't have a clue and don't try. In defense of a few, I would like to say given the volatility of many people of color in the world today, they don't know HOW to behave with people of color - too many "chips on the shoulder" exhibited by people of color (racism and bigorty? only what I expectged), too many easily hurt feelings when nothing bad was meant or intended.

Once again, referring to my dear friend, Elder Maxwell, he quoted many, many times from the BOM (sorry, bad paraphrasing) "we wait upon the Lord with faith and PATIENCE"

Heavenly Father will do what He will in His own due time for His own reasons and with the person He means to be in that calling - understand that each of us is where we need to be to affect the people we are meant to - the clamor for Heavenly Father to "do this or that" is not His timetable and we are not to question Him - we may "with many tears and pleadings" supplicate Him for what we desire, but it behooves us to remember it IS his decision as to when........

[Refuge]

Members of the Church KNOW what they should do, and do not need SLC to always command them -(re: how to treat people of color or not) -

Strange, many that I have come across around my age do not act like it. And coming from a person who will speak to everyone, hug strangers, and is kind to all who cross her path at church, I find your point, well...pointless. Are you me? Are you trying to say that because you've had a good experience, that mine doesn't matter? This attitude is what is the problem. It's never the responsibility or the fault of the individuals victimized. I beg to differ.

I am sorry to say that your post regarding members taking their cue from SLC was extremely offensive to me, given my personal experience with G.A.'s. and also my experience with members who don't need SLC to tell them how to treat people

Try having a white person point to an African man one day after sacrament and saying "there's someone you can date!". Mind you, she's from Utah. Along with the other individuals who I have encountered on this journey who have straight out snubbed me before I could extend my hand. Do you think I lie? For three years, every time I questioned anything, I was pointed to SLC.

some knuckleheads in the church don't have a clue and don't try.QUOTE]

Some is an understatement.

In defense of a few,

Few is quite accurate.

I would like to say given the volatility of many people of color in the world today,

Tending to violence; explosive: a volatile situation with troops and rioters eager for a confrontation.

EXCUSE ME? This is the definition that I found on dictionary.com, and I would like to personally shame you for just degrading your own people like that. Not every person of color is like this, and many are not, period. Don't try to make us out to be thugs, and use that as an excuse for bad treatment by white people. That's wrong. I'm not what the TV portrays me to be. And even the heardest of hearts was born an infant, and has the capability to love, no matter how hard the heart. I come from a family of teenage mothers, convicts, drug addicts. But they would come to my defense if needed. They've erred, but they love one another. I suggest you not lump all people of color into one group, because you believe in this church.

they don't know HOW to behave with people of color - too many "chips on the shoulder" exhibited by people of color (racism and bigorty? only what I expectged), too many easily hurt feelings when nothing bad was meant or intended.

You honestly sound like your ability to reason was taken from you on this subject many years ago, and replaced with a testimony and a reason not to think about this...just blame the colored folk and ignore it. Not all people of color are racists, misguided. Many are, but just as many aren't. I grew up amongst people trying to force race down my throat, I dealt with it all my life. Then I came into this church, was LIED TO and told that everyone was equal, and I acted as such...until the put downs had me beat down. If you haven't experienced that, good for you. But don't deny my reality because you can't stand your own people. I'm a beautiful mixture of three nationalities, and I treasure them all. But I will not let one person look down on me because they don't take the time to educate themselves about even one.

I hate to see people of color just ignore the plights of other people of color in this church, downplay them, and place the responsibility back on the suffering (typical mormon response might I add...how many times have I had someone tell me that it's all my fault or doing when i'm struggling?). It makes no sense.

To those before this individual who recognized that I have a chip on my shoulder, you are right. I also have one on my heart. I came into this church innocent, and when you are so trusting, and that innocence is shattered, and by a few hundred individuals, your only connection with this Gospel for years, when they give you the message that whiteness equals righteousness, that hurts. I cannot change who I am culturally. But I will find acceptance, even if I have to fight for it. YES, I am bitter. I want to be loved for who I am. But some don't feel that is necessary. What's worse, my own come to me and tell me that this either doesn't matter, or isn't happening because of something I did. It's rediculous.

Again I say, I stay here because of my belief in this version of the Gospel. But the human interaction (or lack thereof in many instances) sucks.

[Tanyan]

Gimr, I really enjoy reading your posts, I only wish that more LDS were more Christlike and in Tune with THE LORD OF LIFE'S Teachings. I myself am one not to judge one by color. I was raised by my adopted parents [not LDS] to Love and respect everyone. I went to Elementary/J.R. High/High School with all nationalities. I played J.R+ High School Football /Basketball/Track along with my Black/Spanish friends and had no problems with race [1974-77]. I joined the Church in 1975, I have had the great opportunity to baptize 3 Negro members. One of which I am still close to one and am proud to be his Brother in Christ and friend. I applaud your willingness to stand for Truth and Right and just focus on your relationship with Heavvenly Father anf The Lord Of Life Jesus Christ. Don't give up, stay on coarse. Your Friend/Brother In Christ Jesus, Tanyan. May Grace rain on you continualy.

[Kenngo1969]

GIMR/Samantha Previously Posted: Kennego my friend, with the help of many patient others, to offset those who annoy the everloving heck (I can't say what I want to) out of me, I think this chip will one day be gone. And YES, it is here. I know I'm bitter. And I know it won't do me or anyone else around me any good. I try to walk amongst my LDS peers without fear, but because this is so important to me, any injuries recieved on this playing field hurt double.

Ken Responds: Samantha, I won't patronize you with any "I-feel-your-pain" platitudes. I don't, because I can't. Still, don't make the mistake of assuming (and I don't believe you have or that you will) that acceptance of people of color amongst the LDS is solely a problem of people of color. Rather, it is a problem of the larger society, which makes it not a "black" problem, but a "black" and "brown" and "red" and "yellow" and "white" (and so on) problem.

I find great hope in the vision of the Good Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, that one day people of every race will be able to join hands with people of every other race (and yes, I know we're not "there" yet, even in the Church, but we are "getting" there). Although I can't fathom the depth and breadth of your frustration, at least I can appreciate the fact that you are frustrated.

I assure you that while some (perhaps many) leaders on the local level might not appreciate your frustration, the "powers-that-be" in Salt Lake City are not oblivious to it. Yes, as a person of color, you do carry an especially heavy burden as a member of the Church; no, that isn't fair; but yes, the Lord knows you are (or can become) equal to it. Yes, some of the reasons ascribed by mortal men for some of the things that have happened in the Church's history are anything but inspired. But yes, this is the Lord's Church, and yes, He is in charge. And yes, He does understand your struggles, and yes, He will hold those who deliberately and malevolently inflict pain on you as a result of your race accountable for their misdeeds.

Don't give up. Even though we "see through a glass, darkly," and even though "The Lord's thoughts are not our thoughts, neither are His ways our ways," one day, line-upon-line and precept-upon-precept, here a little and there a little, things will become clear to you. You are a choice Daughter of God, a Heiress to all of His Choicest Blessings, and a Goddess in Embryo yourself. Satan may have power to "bruise your heel," but you have the power (eventually) to "crush his head." Things will look a lot different from an omniscient perspective than they do now, from humanity's limited perspective.

[Bikeemikey]

Del March,

Well it seems you have discerned the truth of NZ membership from a magazine.

New Zealand has comparatively MANY more members than France. Ever since as far back as 1976, it has had 3 times as many listed members as France has had, for a country whose population represents about a bit more than 1/20 of the population of France...

Of those supposed members hardly any of them go to church...

They were mostly Maori polyoneasian families who are now very inactive. Should there be more members than in France or Germany only confirms my claim that demographically speaking calling european GAs and Apostles is not representative of the church.

Likewise regarding secularism...(which my masters degree is on) New Zealand has long been considered one of the most secular countires in the world... dont believe me go read some more magazines... sure the french killed god but the New Zealanders actually believed them.

[Del March]

Well it seems you have discerned the truth of NZ membership from a magazine.

It's not a magazine, it's a website, from what I know. I don't know where they get all their sources, but they seem to depend on RMs and church statistics among other things.

Of those supposed members hardly any of them go to church...

Same problem everywhere, heh ?

Should there be more members than in France or Germany only confirms my claim that demographically speaking calling european GAs and Apostles is not representative of the church.

I never said it is. But I do know that those few European GAs have darn strong testimonies

Likewise regarding secularism...(which my masters degree is on) New Zealand has long been considered one of the most secular countires in the world... dont believe me go read some more magazines... sure the french killed god but the New Zealanders actually believed them.

Hey, don't get all huffy on me, I wasn't trying to annoy you or anything.

I never pretended that no other country in the world was secular. I only said that secularism was the way France found to deal with the trauma of the Wars of Religion and the tyranny of the Church-supported regime of the supposedly divinely appointed Kings.

Del

[Moksha]

I wonder why the Lord hasn't called an older, self-employed, never-been-married, slightly overweight person with a mostache and learning disabilities to be a member of the twelve?

If he doesn't call one in the next time or two..... It is all about ME.  Who cares about serving mankind when the race/ethnicity/diversity card can be played to one's slef-centered advavantage? Where is your compasson PEOPLE!!! I need...nay, I demand your sympathy.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade, why would you want to champion racism? It is not cool and it won't win you points with other Apologists. Your sentiments are merely an attempt to make having an Apostle who is anything but white look frivolous.

[wenglund]

I wonder why the Lord hasn't called an older, self-employed, never-been-married, slightly overweight person with a mostache and learning disabilities to be a member of the twelve?

If he doesn't call one in the next time or two..... It is all about ME.

[whatatimetolive]

GIMR (sorry for the initials)

experiences we have do one of two things - soften our hearts (ala Neal Maxwell and his severe acne or the poor in the BOM) or exacerbate anger, hate and bitterness. I despise the phrase "you don't understand what I've experienced" because we are ALL human and are capable of empathy - your experiences with bigoted members is no worse than mine -I suspect I have been on this earth a few years longer than you and have had several more negative experiences with members than you - please don't get into a "I am more rejected than anyone else" it is counterproductive and whiny. My point, which seemed to go right over you, was even with those bad experiences, there are more people who have the proper view of who each of us is regardless of color and those experiences count for more than those negative ones. Satan is raging on the earth today - the one thing he has proven to be the most successful at than anything else (IMO) is in causing us to take our eye off the ball and focus our attention on THE THINGS THAT DON'T MATTER THE MOST. In the end when I face my Eternal Judge and I whinge about how I was treated by others re: my color, I truly suspect He will look at me in amazement and ask, "You are truly telling ME about being rejected?"

[tommyeic87]

Many of you cannot relate, because you haven't been (within this generation, let go of the pioneer saints for just a second) subject to the isolation of being different.

You know what, Yo mama. Congratulations on being the only human being on this earth to feel different, ever, in the history of time.

[tommyeic87]

I truly suspect He will look at me in amazement and ask, "You are truly telling ME about being rejected?"

Man! You are so right!

[Moksha]

It is a shame some of you reacted without hearing what Samantha said, while others of you have been so very understanding. Then there are those who are just petulant.

You think the only people who are people

Are the people who look and think like you

But if you walk the footsteps of a stranger

You'll learn things you never knew you never knew

Have you ever heard the wolf cry to the blue corn moon

Or asked the grinning bobcat why he grinned?

Can you sing with all the voices of the mountains?

Can you paint with all the colors of the wind?

Can you paint with all the colors of the wind?

Come run the hidden pine trails of the forest

Come taste the sunsweet berries of the Earth

Come roll in all the riches all around you

And for once, never wonder what they're worth

For whether we are white or copper skinned

We need to sing with all the voices of the mountains

We need to paint with all the colors of the wind

- Colors of the Wind, Pocahontas, Walt Disney Studios

[wenglund]

It is a shame some of you reacted without hearing what Samantha said, while others of you have been so very understanding. Then there are those who are just petulant.

What an unsympathetic and discriminatory thing to say.

If you hadn't already earned a spot on the Irony Alert thread twice in so many weeks, this would have garnered dishonorable mention.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-