Deification in the Bible

[TOmNossor]

enummaelish writes,

I am actually quite a fan of both I and II Maccabees, which is why I took the time and effort to correct your view. Please see the original post.

Let me correct your view. Please see the following teachings of the Catholic Church:

Nothing exists that does not owe its existence to God the Creator. The world began when God's word drew it out of nothingness; all existent beings, all of nature, and all human history are rooted in this primordial event, the very genesis by which the world was constituted and time begun. [Cf. St. Augustine, De Genesi adv. Man 1, 2, 4: PL 34, 175] (CCC338).

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." [Gen 1:1] Holy Scripture begins with these solemn words. The profession of faith takes them up when it confesses that God the Father almighty is "Creator of heaven and earth" (Apostles' Creed), "of all that is, seen and unseen" (Nicene Creed). (CCC279).

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth": [Gen 1:1] three things are affirmed in these first words of Scripture: the eternal God gave a beginning to all that exists outside of himself; he alone is Creator (the verb "create" - Hebrew bara - always has God for its subject). The totality of what exists (expressed by the formula "the heavens and the earth") depends on the One who gives it being. (CCC290).

"In the beginning was the Word... and the Word was God... all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made." [Jn 1:1-3] The New Testament reveals that God created everything by the eternal Word, his beloved Son. In him "all things were created, in heaven and on earth... all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." [Col 1:16-17] The Church's faith likewise confesses the creative action of the Holy Spirit, the "giver of life", "the Creator Spirit" (Veni, Creator Spiritus) , the "source of every good". [Cf. Nicene Creed: DS 150; Hymn Veni, Creator Spiritus; Byzantine Troparion of Pentecost Vespers, "O heavenly King, Consoler"] (CCC291).

God is unique; there are no other gods besides him. [Cf. Is 44:6.] He transcends the world and history. He made heaven and earth. (CCC212).

The Old Testament suggests and the New Covenant reveals the creative action of the Son and the Spirit, [Cf. Pss 33 6; 104:30; Gen 1:2-3] inseparably one with that of the Father. This creative co-operation is clearly affirmed in the Church's rule of faith: "There exists but one God... he is the Father, God, the Creator, the author, the giver of order. He made all things by himself, that is, by his Word and by his Wisdom", "by the Son and the Spirit" who, so to speak, are "his hands". [st. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 2, 30, 9; 4, 20, I: PG 7/1, 822, 1032] Creation is the common work of the Holy Trinity. (CCC292).

God is infinitely greater than all his works: "You have set your glory above the heavens." [Ps 8:1; cf. Sir 43:28] Indeed, God's "greatness is unsearchable". [Ps 145:3] But because he is the free and sovereign Creator, the first cause of all that exists, God is present to his creatures' inmost being: "In him we live and move and have our being." [Acts 17:28] In the words of St. Augustine, God is "higher than my highest and more inward than my innermost self". [st. Augustine, Conf: 3, 6, 11: PL 32, 688] (CCC300).

"The eternal Father created the whole universe and chose to raise up men to share in his own divine life,"[LG 2] to which he calls all men in his Son. (CCC759).

Johnny, the problem with your quotes are that they derive from what LDS would call apostate developments.

Clement of Rome and Justin Martyr support creation ex materia. Before Justin Martyr you do not find creation ex nihilo ideas.

Charity, TOm

[johnny]

TOmNossor writes,

he problem with your quotes are that they derive from what LDS would call apostate developments. Clement of Rome and Justin Martyr support creation ex materia. Before Justin Martyr you do not find creation ex nihilo ideas.Charity, TOm

Do you see any problem where these quotes contradict that what is revealed in Bible?

[Zakuska]

Markk,

From the other thread:

LDS theology states and teaches men becomes by very nature God, will have there own planet, and will beget their planet with their begotten children. LDS men are taught they will be just like God through eternal progression and obedient to eternal laws that all Gods must follow. David, this is not biblical theology, not even close. Johnny has asked some very real questions that should be answered, saying we sit on Gods throne does not answer LDS theology, in fact, it contradicts it in that LDS theology teaches they can get there own throne, while the bible is clear that we

[Zakuska]

Thank you Tom. Exactly.

[johnny]

TOmNossor writes,

[johnny]

Zakuska writes,

What is it that makes us gods?

What makes God the Father "God"?

Why cant God make his creation... by very nature what he is?

Can clay become the potter?

[Zakuska]

Cant the Potter make the clay a potter? (eg of these very rocks)

Apparently your God makes adoby bricks.

Mine makes Children patterend after his image and likeness. (Gen 1:26; Gen 5:3; Luke 3:38) Thats why he is "God".

Secondly didnt "clay" become Adam?

"From dust though art to dust shalt though return."

[emaughan]

Can clay become the potter?

I know the script you are refering to but you are taking the comparison way to far - God is far more than a "potter". As others have noted, God is not limited in what He can do for His children. The key difference between LDS who believe in diefication and others who do not, is that we believe in a God that will not damn the progress of His children who have chosen to follow the gospel of Christ. Sure diefication would be miraculous, but I believe in a God of miracles who loves His children.

[David Waltz]

Wow, what a great thread!!! I took yesterday off to play on the beach and have missed most of the fun!!! Thought I would start off with some quotes from Catholics who teach deification:

Catholics on deification

[enummaelish]

Let me correct your view. Please see the following teachings of the Catholic Church:

Thanks Johnny. But I already knew that this was the perspective espoused by the Catholic Church as a result of adopting Greek philosophy. This is not Biblical. As I demonstrated, the ability to create from nothing does not appear in the Bible or the Apocrypha.

You asked for evidence that your views were not Biblical. Obviously creation ex nihilo provides the evidence you seek. Of course, your opinions on the power to create have directly influenced your misunderstanding of the biblical view of deification.

[johnny]

enummaelish writes,

This is not Biblical. As I demonstrated, the ability to create from nothing does not appear in the Bible or the Apocrypha.

What was before Gen 1:1?

Of course, your opinions on the power to create have directly influenced your misunderstanding of the biblical view of deification.

Could you explain my misunderstanding further ... maybe with scripture ... thanks.

[Zakuska]

The Primal atom and Caotic Matter.

[enummaelish]

What was before Gen 1:1

Could you explain my misunderstanding further ... maybe with scripture ... thanks.

That is wonderful. I did. I used Genesis 1:1-3 and II Maccabees 7 to illustrate the fallacy of creation ex nihilo. It is neither biblical nor apocryphal. I went to all that work to discuss these scriptures with you and this is what you offer! Oh Man! I

[johnny]

Zakuska writes,

The Primal atom and Caotic Matter.

How can this be if ....

Gen 1:1

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

The Scriptural expression "heaven and earth" means all that exists, creation in its entirety. It also indicates the bond, deep within creation, that both unites heaven and earth and distinguishes the one from the other: "the earth" is the world of men, while "heaven" or "the heavens" can designate both the firmament and God's own "place" - "our Father in heaven" and consequently the "heaven" too which is eschatological glory. Finally, "heaven" refers to the saints and the "place" of the spiritual creatures, the angels, who surround God. [Pss 115:16; 19:2; Mt 5:16] (CCC326).

[johnny]

enummaelish writes,

That is wonderful. I did. I used Genesis 1:1-3 and II Maccabees 7 to illustrate the fallacy of creation ex nihilo. It is neither biblical nor apocryphal.

You have not explained what was before Gen 1:1?

[Zakuska]

Hint Johnny... perhaps you should go read the first post on the thread.

Then get back to us.

[David Waltz]

One of the chapters of my forthcoming book will deal with Catholic and EO deification.

From my readings of official Catholic documents, exactly what deification will entail is not fully defined. However, one very important difference between Catholic and EO deification is defined. In official Catholic dogma the glorified saints in heaven will see and know God

[David Waltz]

Chapter one of my forth coming book is a substantial treatment of the Biblical data concerning deification (18 single spaced, 8

[Zakuska]

Johhny,

You have not explained what was before Gen 1:1?

Neither does the Bible.

[Benjamin McGuire]

Johnny writes:

The Scriptural expression "heaven and earth" means all that exists, creation in its entirety.

The problem isn't over the meaning of "heaven and earth" - it's in the meaning of "in the beginning". The Hebrew is an asyndetic relative clause. It is a noun in bound form - a construct. It actually says: "In the beginning of". So, the first sentance of the Bible reads something like this (translation mine):

In the beginning of God's creating the heaven and the earth (when the earth was a desert and wasteland, and darkness was on the surface of the abyss, and the breath of God hovered over the surface of the waters), God said, "Let light exist". And light existed.

The desert, the wasteland (indicators of a place devoid of all plant life - the desert - and all animal life - the wasteland), the darkness, the abyss, the waters - all of these pre-exist the first creative act of God - the command for light to exist.

In the beginning of God's creating the heavens and the earth - when the earth was a desert and a wasteland, ... then God said, "Let there be light".

Ben

[johnny]

Benjamin McGuire writes,

it's in the meaning of "in the beginning".

When did time begin?

Is God bound by time and space?

[BCSpace]

Zakuska writes,

The Primal atom and Caotic Matter. 

How can this be if ....

Gen 1:1

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

The Scriptural expression "heaven and earth" means all that exists, creation in its entirety.

You forgot to check your Lexicon again johnny. In Genesis 1 and Colossians 1, "heaven' is the sky and outer space so Jesus (Jehovah, who is the God spoken of in both places) created everything visible and invisible in the physical universe, not the place where God dwells.

[johnny]

BCSpace writes,

You forgot to check your Lexicon again johnny. In Genesis 1 and Colossians 1, "heaven' is the sky and outer space so Jesus (Jehovah, who is the God spoken of in both places) created everything visible and invisible in the physical universe, not the place where God dwells.

You forgot to read the complete Catholic teaching in my earlier post:

The Scriptural expression "heaven and earth" means all that exists, creation in its entirety. It also indicates the bond, deep within creation, that both unites heaven and earth and distinguishes the one from the other: "the earth" is the world of men, while "heaven" or "the heavens" can designate both the firmament and God's own "place" - "our Father in heaven" and consequently the "heaven" too which is eschatological glory. Finally, "heaven" refers to the saints and the "place" of the spiritual creatures, the angels, who surround God. [Pss 115:16; 19:2; Mt 5:16] (CCC326).

[Paul McNabb]

Ben's translation is similar to Young's Literal Translation, which reads

In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth--the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness [is] on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters, and God saith, `Let light be;' and light is.

bible.gospelcom.net describes the YLT as follows:

The Bible text designated YLT is from the 1898 Young's Literal Translation by Robert Young who also compiled Young's Analytical Concordance. This is an extremely literal translation that attempts to preserve the tense and word usage as found in the original Greek and Hebrew writings. The text was scanned from a reprint of the 1898 edition as published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids Michigan. The book is still in print and may be ordered from Baker Book House. Obvious errors in spelling or inconsistent spellings of the same word were corrected in the computer edition of the text.

[Zakuska]

Johnny,

When did time begin?

Time is relative to the sphere to which it is attached.