God the Father Touching Joseph's Eyes to See the Saviour

[Duncan]

What do you make of this account of the 1st Vision? It was recorded in 1893 by Charles L. Walker who heard it from John Alger. John Alger was born ( I have no idea if he was related to Fanny Alger) in 1820 so the time frame fits. This is decades later obviously

"2nd Feb Thurs [1893] Cold and chilly. Attended Fast Meeting.... Br John Alger said while speaking of the Prophet Joseph, that when he, John, was a small boy he heard the Prophet Joseph relate his vision of seeing The Father and the Son, That God touched his eyes with his finger and said “Joseph this is my beloved Son hear him.” As soon as the Lord had touched his eyes with his finger he immediately saw the Savior. After meeting, a few of us questioned him about the matter and he told us at the bottom of the meeting house steps that he was in the House of Father Smith in Kirtland when Joseph made this declaration, and that Joseph while speaking of it put his finger to his right eye, suiting the action with the words so as to illustrate and at the same time impress the occurrence on the minds of those unto whom He was speaking. We enjoyed the conversation very much, as it was something that we had never seen in church history or heard of before." 

I know I have heard this story before about God touching the eyes of Joseph but is it credible though? I wonder about Walker's statement that he had never heard it before, which doesn't mean it didn't happen he may just not have heard it. Thoughts?

An aside I suspect Walker's commentary starts in "After meeting"

Edited February 5, 2020 by Duncan

[Ahab]

13 minutes ago, Duncan said:

What do you make of this account of the 1st Vision? It was recorded in 1893 by Charles L. Walker who heard it from John Alger. John Alger was born ( I have no idea if he was related to Fanny Alger) in 1820 so the time frame fits. This is decades later obviously

"2nd Feb Thurs [1893] Cold and chilly. Attended Fast Meeting.... Br John Alger said while speaking of the Prophet Joseph, that when he, John, was a small boy he heard the Prophet Joseph relate his vision of seeing The Father and the Son, That God touched his eyes with his finger and said “Joseph this is my beloved Son hear him.” As soon as the Lord had touched his eyes with his finger he immediately saw the Savior. After meeting, a few of us questioned him about the matter and he told us at the bottom of the meeting house steps that he was in the House of Father Smith in Kirtland when Joseph made this declaration, and that Joseph while speaking of it put his finger to his right eye, suiting the action with the words so as to illustrate and at the same time impress the occurrence on the minds of those unto whom He was speaking. We enjoyed the conversation very much, as it was something that we had never seen in church history or heard of before." 

I know I have heard this story before about God touching the eyes of Joseph but is it credible though? I wonder about Walker's statement that he had never heard it before, which doesn't mean it didn't happen he may just not have heard it. Thoughts?

An aside I suspect Walker's commentary starts in "After meeting"

I don't consider someone's testimony credible until God somehow assures me that person is telling the truth.  As of now, nothing on this. So I will just say:  Hmm.  Maybe. Could be.  Don't know now, though.  Maybe later I will find out.

[SeekerB]

It is very easy for a small boy to misinterpret something he thought the prophet said.

[hope_for_things]

35 minutes ago, Duncan said:

What do you make of this account of the 1st Vision? It was recorded in 1893 by Charles L. Walker who heard it from John Alger. John Alger was born ( I have no idea if he was related to Fanny Alger) in 1820 so the time frame fits. This is decades later obviously

"2nd Feb Thurs [1893] Cold and chilly. Attended Fast Meeting.... Br John Alger said while speaking of the Prophet Joseph, that when he, John, was a small boy he heard the Prophet Joseph relate his vision of seeing The Father and the Son, That God touched his eyes with his finger and said “Joseph this is my beloved Son hear him.” As soon as the Lord had touched his eyes with his finger he immediately saw the Savior. After meeting, a few of us questioned him about the matter and he told us at the bottom of the meeting house steps that he was in the House of Father Smith in Kirtland when Joseph made this declaration, and that Joseph while speaking of it put his finger to his right eye, suiting the action with the words so as to illustrate and at the same time impress the occurrence on the minds of those unto whom He was speaking. We enjoyed the conversation very much, as it was something that we had never seen in church history or heard of before." 

I know I have heard this story before about God touching the eyes of Joseph but is it credible though? I wonder about Walker's statement that he had never heard it before, which doesn't mean it didn't happen he may just not have heard it. Thoughts?

An aside I suspect Walker's commentary starts in "After meeting"

Its an interesting and very late second hand account.  I found this blog post that has some interesting speculative commentary on possible influences.  I personally wouldn't be surprised if Joseph shared something to this effect, it seems plausible to me.

https://www.thymindoman.com/early-secondhand-details-about-joseph-smiths-first-vision-in-1830-1833/

[strappinglad]

Sounds like a faith promoting rumor that came from playing  " telephone " . Easy to believe and no real harm done to doctrine but hard to substantiate . 

[mapman]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

What do you make of this account of the 1st Vision? It was recorded in 1893 by Charles L. Walker who heard it from John Alger. John Alger was born ( I have no idea if he was related to Fanny Alger) in 1820 so the time frame fits. This is decades later obviously

"2nd Feb Thurs [1893] Cold and chilly. Attended Fast Meeting.... Br John Alger said while speaking of the Prophet Joseph, that when he, John, was a small boy he heard the Prophet Joseph relate his vision of seeing The Father and the Son, That God touched his eyes with his finger and said “Joseph this is my beloved Son hear him.” As soon as the Lord had touched his eyes with his finger he immediately saw the Savior. After meeting, a few of us questioned him about the matter and he told us at the bottom of the meeting house steps that he was in the House of Father Smith in Kirtland when Joseph made this declaration, and that Joseph while speaking of it put his finger to his right eye, suiting the action with the words so as to illustrate and at the same time impress the occurrence on the minds of those unto whom He was speaking. We enjoyed the conversation very much, as it was something that we had never seen in church history or heard of before." 

I know I have heard this story before about God touching the eyes of Joseph but is it credible though? I wonder about Walker's statement that he had never heard it before, which doesn't mean it didn't happen he may just not have heard it. Thoughts?

An aside I suspect Walker's commentary starts in "After meeting"

He was Fanny Alger's brother. Obviously one needs to take late and second-hand reminiscences with a healthy skepticism, but I don't think there's anything particularly implausible about this account. Mark Ashurst-McGee's dissertation argued that Joseph Smith received his first seer stone around the same time as the first vision, and speculated that the beginning of his career as a seer was during this vision. Don Bradley has pointed out parallels to the 1st Vision to accounts in the Book of Mormon like the Brother of Jared seeing the Lord and their connections to the temple endowment ceremonies he would go on to institute.

This account has similarities to the account of Enoch becoming a seer: "And the Lord spake unto Enoch, and said unto him: Anoint thine eyes with clay, and wash them, and thou shalt see. And he did so. And he beheld the spirits that God had created; and he beheld also things which were not visible to the natural eye; and from thenceforth came the saying abroad in the land: A seer hath the Lord raised up unto his people." (Moses 6:35-36) Also the Lord's finger touching the Brother of Jared's white stones to give physical light and the interpreters to be seer stones. Some early sources describing the Nauvoo endowment indicate that the garment was understood as representing the white stone with a new name from Revelation.

Of course, this could all just be based on hearsay as well. I expect Don Bradley will be discussing these sources and ideas, though, in his upcoming publication on the 1st Vision.

[mapman]

Duncan, Don Bradley discussed this source in his FAIR talk: https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/august-2019/first-vision-as-endowment-and-epitome-of-the-gospel. He believes it is trustworthy. From what I've heard he is planning on publishing something related to the First Vision and the temple, not sure if it is going to be a book or an article. He also points out the similarity to the account of Abraham 3 where Abraham saw the cosmos in the Urim and Thummim and then the Lord appeared to him in person and touched his eyes so he could see further visions:

"Thus I, Abraham, talked with the Lord, face to face, as one man talketh with another; and he told me of the works which his hands had made; And he said unto me: My son, my son (and his hand was stretched out), behold I will show you all these. And he put his hand upon mine eyes, and I saw those things which his hands had made, which were many; and they multiplied before mine eyes, and I could not see the end thereof."

I think there are also some parallels to the washing and anointing in the temple as I alluded to above.

Edit to add some quotes from Mark Ashurst-McGee's dissertation, "Pathway to Prophethood":

"Lacking any further relevant data and reaching a point of eductive exhaustion, I tentatively date the first seer stone vision to 1819 or early 1820 and the actual disinternment to 1821 or early 1822." (p.215)
"Joseph wrote that his First Vision occurred 'early in the spring of Eightteen hundred and twenty.' This vision evidently followed shortly after his first vision of his first seer stone, but before he actually obtained it. It is possible, however, that it occurred prior to his first look in Sally's stone." (p.218)
"Marking the beginning of his new role as a village seer, Joseph's First Vision conforms to this pattern. Also, as with his walk into the wooded grove, Joseph's journey to obtain his first stone constitute a type of vision quest" (p.225)

Edited February 5, 2020 by mapman