mfbukowski Posted August 23, 2018 Posted August 23, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Right here. One actually happened and the other didn’t. Yes that's a difference of no importance I also said this: "The last point makes no difference in my life, but it is a difference" My straw hat is also on my desk, but that fact has no importance Edited August 23, 2018 by mfbukowski
hope_for_things Posted August 23, 2018 Posted August 23, 2018 1 minute ago, mfbukowski said: Yes that's a difference of no importance I also said this: "The last point makes no difference in my life, but it is a difference" My straw hat is also on my desk, but it has no importance It’s important to a lot of people, me included and I would venture to say it’s important to the vast majority of Mormons. There is a difference between history and imagination. There is a difference between empirical evidence and fantasy. These things matter to people, and you can’t just dismiss that. It’s pragmatically true that these concepts matter to everyday people.
mfbukowski Posted August 23, 2018 Posted August 23, 2018 7 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: It’s important to a lot of people, me included and I would venture to say it’s important to the vast majority of Mormons. There is a difference between history and imagination. There is a difference between empirical evidence and fantasy. These things matter to people, and you can’t just dismiss that. It’s pragmatically true that these concepts matter to everyday people. You think I'm not aware of that? Why do you think I'm here?
mfbukowski Posted August 23, 2018 Posted August 23, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: It’s important to a lot of people, me included and I would venture to say it’s important to the vast majority of Mormons. There is a difference between history and imagination. There is a difference between empirical evidence and fantasy. These things matter to people, and you can’t just dismiss that. It’s pragmatically true that these concepts matter to everyday people. People who do not understand that positivism is dead. It is equivalent to the Copernican revolution, and I don't expect everyone to understand it. When they do understand that they will understand that your arguments are not really relevant to religion at all, and Mormonism will be much better for it. Edited August 23, 2018 by mfbukowski
hope_for_things Posted August 23, 2018 Posted August 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: You think I'm not aware of that? Why do you think I'm here? Ok, I’m still confused then. So what point are you trying to make to me and others who think these differences between history and fiction matter? Are you trying to convince us that they don’t actually matter after all?
mfbukowski Posted August 23, 2018 Posted August 23, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Ok, I’m still confused then. So what point are you trying to make to me and others who think these differences between history and fiction matter? Are you trying to convince us that they don’t actually matter after all? I'm sorry but it is not about history versus fiction. Fiction is deliberate falsehood for artistic purposes. History is written by people who have prejudices who come from a deliberate point of view. There's no such thing as impartial history. No history shows exactly what happened to every person and every motive and every nuance of behavior. Objective history is an illusion. So even setting it up that way as a false dichotomy. It's okay. We are rapidly reaching the point where this is an unfruitful activity. I see the world in Shades of Grey and it appears to me you are trying to make everything black and white. That limits communication. The world is not binary. Edited August 23, 2018 by mfbukowski 1
hope_for_things Posted August 23, 2018 Posted August 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: People who do not understand that positivism is dead. It is equivalent to the Copernican revolution, and I don't expect everyone to understand it. When they do understand that they will understand that your arguments are not really relevant to religion at all, and Mormonism will be much better for it. How are they not relevant to religion? If facts and fantasy don’t matter then every religion is of equal value to society. Scientology or Stoicism, it’s all the same, no facts can be used to evaluate religion?
hope_for_things Posted August 23, 2018 Posted August 23, 2018 1 minute ago, mfbukowski said: I'm sorry but it is not about history versus fiction. Fiction is deliberate falsehood for artistic purposes. History is written by people who have prejudices who come from a deliberate point of view. There's no such thing as impartial history. No history shows exactly what happened to every person and every motive and every nuance of behavior. Objective history is an illusion. So even setting it up that way as a false dichotomy. Don’t side track, we are making some progress, ignore the imperfection of the dichotomy and answer my question. Are you trying to convince those of us for whom these things matter that they shouldn’t actually matter at the end of the day? Is that your objective?
mfbukowski Posted August 23, 2018 Posted August 23, 2018 13 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: How are they not relevant to religion? If facts and fantasy don’t matter then every religion is of equal value to society. Scientology or Stoicism, it’s all the same, no facts can be used to evaluate religion? Is not about fact versus fantasy. Binary.
mfbukowski Posted August 23, 2018 Posted August 23, 2018 13 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Don’t side track, we are making some progress, ignore the imperfection of the dichotomy and answer my question. Are you trying to convince those of us for whom these things matter that they shouldn’t actually matter at the end of the day? Is that your objective? Duh. They matter to those to whom they matter. There's no "should" here. Binary
mfbukowski Posted August 23, 2018 Posted August 23, 2018 (edited) 19 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Don’t side track, we are making some progress, ignore the imperfection of the dichotomy and answer my question. Are you trying to convince those of us for whom these things matter that they shouldn’t actually matter at the end of the day? Is that your objective? Ignore the dichotomy but don't ignore the dichotomy. Contradictory. There is no should here remember? Edited August 23, 2018 by mfbukowski
hope_for_things Posted August 23, 2018 Posted August 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Duh. They matter to those to whom they matter. There's no "should" here. Binary So are you admitting that your objective is to try and convince those of us for whom these things do matter, that they shouldn’t actually matter at all?
hope_for_things Posted August 23, 2018 Posted August 23, 2018 10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Is not about fact versus fantasy. Binary. Ok, but are you saying facts can’t be used to evaluate religions?
mfbukowski Posted August 23, 2018 Posted August 23, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: So are you admitting that your objective is to try and convince those of us for whom these things do matter, that they shouldn’t actually matter at all? False conclusion. I stand by what I said not what you made up. You cannot even imagine a non-binary answer. Edited August 23, 2018 by mfbukowski
hope_for_things Posted August 23, 2018 Posted August 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: False conclusion. I stand by what I said not what you made up. You cannot even imagine a non-binary answer. I’m just trying to understand your objective here on this specific point and not trying to get lost or side tracked. We agreed on one thing, that the difference between history and fiction matters to many people in Mormonism. You said it doesn’t matter to you. I think you’re also saying it shouldn’t matter to the rest of us. Is that correct? Is that one of your objectives to explain why it shouldn’t matter to those of us that think it does matter?
mfbukowski Posted August 23, 2018 Posted August 23, 2018 34 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: I’m just trying to understand your objective here on this specific point and not trying to get lost or side tracked. We agreed on one thing, that the difference between history and fiction matters to many people in Mormonism. You said it doesn’t matter to you. I think you’re also saying it shouldn’t matter to the rest of us. Is that correct? Is that one of your objectives to explain why it shouldn’t matter to those of us that think it does matter? I'm really tired of this. Show me where I said that the difference between history and fiction doesn't matter. CFR
mfbukowski Posted August 23, 2018 Posted August 23, 2018 (edited) 45 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: I’m just trying to understand your objective here on this specific point and not trying to get lost or side tracked. We agreed on one thing, that the difference between history and fiction matters to many people in Mormonism. You said it doesn’t matter to you. I think you’re also saying it shouldn’t matter to the rest of us. Is that correct? Is that one of your objectives to explain why it shouldn’t matter to those of us that think it does matter? Tell me why the story of the prodigal son has spiritual value or explain why it doesn't have spiritual value to you. Or you can use any Parable you prefer. Don't you see The Parables have spiritual value? Are they fiction? Did they really happen? Are they just like Harry Potter? Edited August 23, 2018 by mfbukowski 1
hope_for_things Posted August 23, 2018 Posted August 23, 2018 1 hour ago, hope_for_things said: 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: Yes that's a difference of no importance I also said this: "The last point makes no difference in my life, but it is a difference" My straw hat is also on my desk, but it has no importance It’s important to a lot of people, me included and I would venture to say it’s important to the vast majority of Mormons. There is a difference between history and imagination. There is a difference between empirical evidence and fantasy. These things matter to people, and you can’t just dismiss that. It’s pragmatically true that these concepts matter to everyday people. It’s right here, you said your straw hat on the table is of no importance. Then i said these things matter to real people and you said you understand that and it’s why you’re here participating on the message board. I’m trying to get clarity on what it is you are saying and you’re acting like I’m accusing you of something and trying to twist your words. I just want clarity, I want understanding, I want to know what it is you are saying. When you understand that this difference between history and fiction matters to people like me, but you feel differently, what wisdom are you trying to impart. Why do you feel differently, I want to understand and I’m trying to ask this question backwards and sideways and anyway to try and get clarity here.
hope_for_things Posted August 23, 2018 Posted August 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Tell me why the story of the prodigal son has spiritual value or explain why it doesn't have spiritual value to you. Or you can use any Parable you prefer. Don't you see The Parables have spiritual value? Are they fiction? Did they really happen? Are they just like Harry Potter? Parables are fiction and they have value, I agree with that and haven’t said otherwise. Harry Potter has value too. Are the parables history? Probably not, but we don’t know for sure. They can still have value independent of their historicity.
Popular Post Meerkat Posted August 23, 2018 Popular Post Posted August 23, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, hope_for_things said: So are you admitting that your objective is to try and convince those of us for whom these things do matter, that they shouldn’t actually matter at all? Truth is so vast, each of us must decide which vein to spend our lives mining because our time is limited. Your vein appears to be history. Your objective seems to be to convince us that a fully examined history should matter more than anything else. I know history is important. Since my time is limited and I believe an accurate enough history will be revealed in due time, I can spend my time seeking personal revelation, loving my neighbor and working on family history. I'm not saying you should do this. Just allow that every child of God is entitled to their own Gospel passion that may be different from yours. If you want to dig out history, then dig. Don't expect others to do the heavy lifting for you. They have work enough of their own to do. What SHOULD matter depends on what each person decides should matter-- to them, imo. Edited August 23, 2018 by Meerkat 5
mfbukowski Posted August 23, 2018 Posted August 23, 2018 3 hours ago, hope_for_things said: It’s right here, you said your straw hat on the table is of no importance. You are just messing with me now, or not thinking clearly. This is what I asked: ""Show me where I said that the difference between history and fiction doesn't matter."" And you respond with my quote about straw hat? The fact that my straw hat is on the desk it has no relevance to the question at hand was the point. That has absolutely no relevance to the difference between history and fiction. You're messing with me now. You could not possibly actually think that had relevance. I'm out. I am convinced you're just playing games. 1
mfbukowski Posted August 23, 2018 Posted August 23, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Meerkat said: Truth is so vast, each of us must decide which vein to spend our lives mining because our time is limited. Your vein appears to be history. Your objective seems to be to convince us that a fully examined history should matter more than anything else. I know history is important. Since my time is limited and I believe an accurate enough history will be revealed in due time, I can spend my time seeking personal revelation, loving my neighbor and working on family history. I'm not saying you should do this. Just allow that every child of God is entitled to their own Gospel passion that may be different from yours. If you want to dig out history, then dig. Don't expect others to do the heavy lifting for you. They have work enough of their own to do. What SHOULD matter depends on what each person decides should matter-- to them, imo. Nails it. I'm not doing any more heavy lifting while he appears to be playing games. There is no way that could be an honest confusion between history, fiction, and straw hats. It can't be me if others are getting this. Edited August 23, 2018 by mfbukowski 1
Kevin Christensen Posted August 23, 2018 Posted August 23, 2018 10 hours ago, hope_for_things said: Ok, but are you saying facts can’t be used to evaluate religions? Here is a link to Ian Barbour's Myths, Models, and Paradigms: A Comparative Study of Science and Religion, in which all of this is made crystal clear. http://media.sabda.org/alkitab-2/Religion-Online.org Books/Barbour, Ian - Myths, Models and Paradigms-A comparative Stu.pdf Best, Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA 2
mfbukowski Posted August 23, 2018 Posted August 23, 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, hope_for_things said: How are they not relevant to religion? If facts and fantasy don’t matter then every religion is of equal value to society. Scientology or Stoicism, it’s all the same, no facts can be used to evaluate religion? You subscribe to positivism positivism is dead. Your religion is interfering with our discussion. Your central assumption unfounded is that fact do have something to do with religion. You say so over and over again. The problem is that is unfounded assumption. The Assumption itself has no evidence for it. And that is why positivism is dead. It says that all true statements must have evidence. But that statement itself has no evidence. It is like a religious Dogma, accepted on faith. Edited August 23, 2018 by mfbukowski 1
hope_for_things Posted August 23, 2018 Posted August 23, 2018 9 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Nails it. I'm not doing any more heavy lifting while he appears to be playing games. There is no way that could be an honest confusion between history, fiction, and straw hats. It can't be me if others are getting this. I assure you 100% I am not playing games, I was trying to understand your position which has been very very difficult. I tried distilling it down to simple questions and then restating what I thought you were saying back to you to confirm my understanding. That obviously didn't work. I take our conversations seriously, always have, and I thought you knew that. Unfortunately, after all that back and forth, I still don't know what your position is on whether history or fiction are substantively different, and whether or not you think that should matter. When I tried to confirm my interpretation of what you said, you replied "where did I ever say that" which makes me think that you don't agree. Then you make a comment back to Meerkat that "There is no way that could be an honest confusion between history, fiction and straw hats." YES, I'M CONFUSED!! Me here, I'm reading your messages multiple times and trying to understand, but it seems to me like you're running in multiple different directions and not staying focused on the questions I'm asking. What do you think about the difference between history and fiction, you said it has "no importance", and I'm asking you why. Why isn't it important to you? I also pointed out that its very important to most Mormons and then you said "why do you think I'm here" and I asked follow up questions, but didn't get clear answers. I'd like to know why you're here. Is it because you want to impart some wisdom to those of us that think this difference between history and fiction is important? What is that wisdom you're trying to impart? Can you please help me understand.
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