Why not be more accurate? Pet peeves.

[bsjkki]

Pet peeves...this statement is found in the teachers manual for Old Testament lesson #11. 

1. Joseph is sold into slavery by his brothers.

Followed later by this:

What did the brothers eventually do with Joseph instead of killing him?

What is the correct answer?

[Robert F. Smith]

So, what is the problem as you see it?  It isn't clear what you are taking issue with.

One can read David Bokovoy's treatment of the whole issue in his Authoring the Old Testament, I:37-39.  Or you can simply read the whole story for sequence and coherence.

Gen 37:18 versus 37:20 (how many times was Joseph to be killed?) 

Gen 37:20 vs 37:22 (same plan to both kill and save Joseph?) 

Gen 37:22 vs 37:27 (both Reuben and Judah come up with the same plan to save Joseph?)

Gen 37:25-27,28b, 39:1 (Ishmaelites) vs 37:28a (Midianites) vs 37:36 (Medanites) vs 40:14-15 vs 45:4-5 (who sold Joseph?  to whom?) 

 

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

So, what is the problem as you see it?  It isn't clear what you are taking issue with.

One can read David Bokovoy's treatment of the whole issue in his Authoring the Old Testament, I:37-39.  Or you can simply read the whole story for sequence and coherence.

Gen 37:18 versus 37:20 (how many times was Joseph to be killed?) 

Gen 37:20 vs 37:22 (same plan to both kill and save Joseph?) 

Gen 37:22 vs 37:27 (both Reuben and Judah come up with the same plan to save Joseph?)

Gen 37:25-27,28b, 39:1 (Ishmaelites) vs 37:28a (Midianites) vs 37:36 (Medanites) vs 40:14-15 vs 45:4-5 (who sold Joseph?  to whom?) 

 

I agree with you...I've been studying this today and find that scholars are at odds but most seem to think the "they" in verse 28 is the brothers but others disagree. On a straight reading of the King James version, it seems the Midianites are the "they." The brothers were eating and hatched a plan to sell Joseph but while they were eating, the Midianites, found Joseph, pulled him up and then sold Joseph to the Ishamaelites. Here again some scholars say the term Midianites and Ishamaelites are used interchangeably but others disagree. So...I've always thought, on a close reading of the King James Version that the Midianites sold Joseph to the Ishamaelites who then sold Joseph to Potiphar.  (But then there is the Medanites too...arghhhh)

If the brothers are the "they" in Chapter 28, Reuban must not have been with the others while they were eating and hatched their plan to sell Joseph or he would have known Joseph was sold and gone from the pit. 

As with most things, the more I think I know, the more I find out I don't know. But, then again , this seems to be a questions scholars have been debating for quite some time. 

So, I guess my post originated because I thought the Midianites found Joseph in the pit and sold him to the Ishamaelites. Then, the anwer to my questions would be--the brothers threw Joseph in a pit.

Or...it could be the brothers drew Joseph out of the pit and sold him to the Midianites who were also refered to as Ishamaelites and then the answer to my questions would be the brothers sold Joseph.

But...where was Rueban during lunch and the selling of his brother?

Edited April 9, 2018 by bsjkki

[bsjkki]

Interesting analysis of this topic. https://www.alephbeta.org/course/lecture/where-is-reuven https://www.jweekly.com/1996/12/06/vayeshev-who-bears-guilt-for-selling-joseph-as-a-slave/

Edited April 9, 2018 by bsjkki

[strappinglad]

This must have been a freeway with lots of traffic if caravans were passing every few minutes while the brothers ate. I see one caravan made up of Ishmaelites and Midianites. I doubt the brothers would have stood around watching while the Midianites hauled Joseph out of the pit and made off with him. Not so much as a protest , " Hey , that's our property !!! . Leave him be ! "

Just how many of the brothers were herding the sheep? If there were more than 5 ,somebody would have spilled the beans to Israel , no?  One or two guys and a dog can herd quite a few sheep .

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

Interesting analysis of this topic. https://www.alephbeta.org/course/lecture/where-is-reuven https://www.jweekly.com/1996/12/06/vayeshev-who-bears-guilt-for-selling-joseph-as-a-slave/

Yes, a very sophisticated discussion by a rabbi who follows the old discussion by the Rashbam (Rabbi Shmuel ben Meir), which demonstrates why the Jews have survived for thousands of years thus far.  They have their Sabbath on Saturday, then they have Sunday School on Sunday -- learning Hebrew and Bible (Torah).  They take it so much more seriously than most Christians.

[katherine the great]

If the Midianites were really the ones who sold Joseph to the Ishmaelites (are they really a different group? I thought they were a combined people), then why does Joseph himself say (In chapter 45) that his brothers were the ones who sold him to the Ishmaelites? 

[bsjkki]

“This reading of the text solves all the difficulties in this week's portion and therefore gained acceptance by most modern Jewish biblical commentators,[9]whereas most non-Jewish Bible criticism ignores Rashbam's interpretation based on a "close reading of the plain sense of Scripture."  When it says at the end of chapter 37 that "the Medanites sold him to Egypt to Potiphar," this means that the Medanites, i.e., the Midianites sold him (to the Ishmaelites) to be taken to Egypt, thus underscoring what we surmised above:  Joseph was removed far from the land of Canaan so that he would not return and his father's household would not hear of him.  So how are we to understand Joseph's words to his brothers, "because you sold me hither," following Rashbam's interpretation?  He answers:  because you caused me to be sold.  Shadal and Benno Jacob add:  apparently Joseph thought that his brothers had indeed sold him to the Midianites as a rebellious slave.  One could say further:  the brothers were ashamed to take him out of the pit and sell him directly to the Midianites, therefore they left this unpleasant task to the buyers.” https://www.biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/eng/vayigash/997BenYashar.doc

[katherine the great]

7 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

“This reading of the text solves all the difficulties in this week's portion and therefore gained acceptance by most modern Jewish biblical commentators,[9]whereas most non-Jewish Bible criticism ignores Rashbam's interpretation based on a "close reading of the plain sense of Scripture."  When it says at the end of chapter 37 that "the Medanites sold him to Egypt to Potiphar," this means that the Medanites, i.e., the Midianites sold him (to the Ishmaelites) to be taken to Egypt, thus underscoring what we surmised above:  Joseph was removed far from the land of Canaan so that he would not return and his father's household would not hear of him.  So how are we to understand Joseph's words to his brothers, "because you sold me hither," following Rashbam's interpretation?  He answers:  because you caused me to be sold.  Shadal and Benno Jacob add:  apparently Joseph thought that his brothers had indeed sold him to the Midianites as a rebellious slave.  One could say further:  the brothers were ashamed to take him out of the pit and sell him directly to the Midianites, therefore they left this unpleasant task to the buyers.” https://www.biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/eng/vayigash/997BenYashar.doc

Is this implying that Joseph was unconscious during the transaction?

[bsjkki]

5 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

Is this implying that Joseph was unconscious during the transaction?

I think they are saying Joseph may not have known the whole story. He also says he was kidnapped from his land.

“ In the meantime, from a different direction hidden from the brothers' view, a band of Midianite traders came by, and hearing Joseph's cries from down in the pit, realized that merchandise—a slave—had come their way.  This is reflected in what Joseph later says to his fellows in prison, "For in truth, I was kidnapped from the land of the Hebrews" (Gen. 40:15).”

Many scholars think the account is the merging of two different versions of the same story.

I don’t know what the right answer is. The videos I posted were really interesting.

[katherine the great]

6 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Many scholars think the account is the merging of two different versions of the same story.

This makes the most sense to me. I'm a fan of the documentary hypothesis. Same story: two or more points of view.

[Robert F. Smith]

26 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

................... this means that the Medanites, i.e., the Midianites sold him (to the Ishmaelites) to be taken to Egypt, .....................

Medan is merely a spelling variant of Midian, a very different group from the Ishmaelites.

You are also correct to note that "the account is the merging of two different versions of the same story."  This is a common feature of Genesis, in which we have many duplicate accounts with differing details.  Of course Nibley saw those repetitions as indicative of ritual patterns (myth-ritual), while others see them as flaws and proof positive that they are all fairy tales.

[strappinglad]

Query, I find Hebron easily on OT maps but no Sechem or Dothan . These must have been small villages not far away from Hebron. Joseph being Jacob's favorite , I find it strange that he would send Joseph off to find the brothers all by himself unless the distance was just a few miles. As a father, if I heard about the " animal attack " I would have quickly mounted a search to find his body and see the place where the robe was found.