FormerLDS Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 17 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: You still won’t answer my fairly asked question with a simple yes or no, so my default assumption is that you believe a born again believer can commit any sin the fallen component of his nature wants to commit, no matter how severe and vile, and yet the commission of these grave sins will not in the slightest negatively effect his relationship with God. 7 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. (2 Peter:2) 2 Peter 2 perfectly illustrates the sinless "inward man" and the sinful "old man" for those who are willing to see. Was Lot just and righteous or was he a wicked man? “And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 2 Peter 2:7-8 Could it be that Lot’s soul (inward man) was righteous, while his fleshly body (old man) was wicked? BTW, what are "grave sins"? Did they only slightly cause the savior to die? Maybe you believe your sins are somehow less sinful than someone else's sin?
clarkgoble Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 20 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Honestly, imagine how wonderful it would be if you had eternal life right now and there was nothing - NOTHING - that you or anyone else could ever do to take that away from you. Those who have eternal life SHALL NOT ever come into condemnation again because we have eternal life. Again that's a weak argument. I know many people who would say, "imagine how wonderful it would be if God just gave everyone eternal life regardless of how they act in this life."
Bobbieaware Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) 59 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: 2 Peter 2 perfectly illustrates the sinless "inward man" and the sinful "old man" for those who are willing to see. Was Lot just and righteous or was he a wicked man? “And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;) 2 Peter 2:7-8 Could it be that Lot’s soul (inward man) was righteous, while his fleshly body (old man) was wicked? BTW, what are "grave sins"? Did they only slightly cause the savior to die? Maybe you believe your sins are somehow less sinful than someone else's sin? I was differtiating between (for example) a naive kid stealing a piece of penny candy and a supposedly committed Christian, who most definitely should know better, who continuously cheats on his wife and betrays his children in a sneaky long term sexual affair. The scripture you quote says that Lot was just and righteousness man, not that he was somehow righteous in his heart while behaving just like the rest of the desperately wicked and doomed inhabitants of Sodom. Edited January 31, 2018 by Bobbieaware
Maestrophil Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) On 1/30/2018 at 7:31 AM, FormerLDS said: For those who have accepted the gift of eternal life, it is the fleshly body that sins, but not the soul (the new or "inward man"). The Apostle Paul explains it best in Romans 7:17-22 “Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:” I appreciate you being patient and sincere in illustrating your viewpoint. I can understand the interpretation of the scripture you cited, and it helps me see your point. I still find it difficult to understand that a change of heart (the Lord looketh upon the heart) away from Christ would not separate a person from God. That a person could deny Christ after having accepted him, and WILLFULLY and repeatedly violate commandments and still obtain 'eternal life" does not register well with my understanding. Unless eternal life is what we all have through his grace - which is what I believe as an LDS - we all will be resurrected and receive a glory. If that is the case, then I suppose the LDS do believe what you are saying. Edited January 31, 2018 by Maestrophil
Bobbieaware Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, Maestrophil said: I appreciate you being patient and sincere in illustrating your viewpoint. I can understand the interpretation of the scripture you cited, and it helps me see your point. I still find it difficult to understand that a change of heart (the Lord looketh upon the heart) away from Christ would not separate a person from God. That a person could deny Christ after having accepted him, and WILLFULLY and repeatedly violate commandments and still obtain 'eternal life" does not register well with my understanding. Unless eternal life is what we all have through his grace - which is what I believe as an LDS - we all will be resurrected and receive a glory. If that is the case, then I suppose the LDS do believe what you are saying. The Latter-day Saints and Evangelicals have been talking past each other and arguing unnecessarily on the subject of salvation for years. Although it’s rarely discussed by the LDS Church members, the fact is that in Mormonism it’s rather easy to obtain salvation and inherit one of the Father’s many mansions of heavenly glory. For example, D&C 76 tells us that the lackadaisical, non-valiant members of the Lord’s Church will inherit a glorious heavenly inheritance in the presence of the Son of God forever. Since it seems the inheritors of this heavenly kingdom are not willing to expend much effort in service to the Lord, it appears that a mere sincere (if low energy) profession of faith in Jesus Christ as their personal Savior is enough to qualify for life forever in the personal presence of Jesus Christ. Further, both D&C 76 and D&C 138 tell us that even the wicked and rebellious who wanted nothing to do with God and his salvation while sojourning in the flesh will eventually inherit a heavenly kingdom so wonderful and glorious that the full extent of it’s wonder and glory is far beyond human comprehension, and all the inheritors of that kingdom will ultimately be required to do in order to obtain that degree of salvation is be willing to be taught the gospel of Jesus Christ, accept it, and then bow the knee to God the Father in a sincere confession of faith that Jesus Christ is their Savior. Now the reason why the Latter-day Saints and Evangelicals have been talking past each other and arguing unnecessarily for so many years is because when we debate each other the Latter-day Saints unwittingly focus on the scriptures that speak of the full measure of heavenly rewards God offers to those who overcome the world or, in other words, those who are valiant and fully faithful in service to him, Verses such as... 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3) Or... 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 3) Meanwhile, the Evangelical’s focus heavily on the verses of scripture that speak of escaping the wrath of God by receiving Christ’s free gift of salvation through a sincere confession of faith in Him as personal Savior. The problem is that salvation by mere sincere confessions of faith in Christ, and the heavenly rewards God promises to those who are fully faithful, are both true doctrines but most Latter-day Saints lack the knowledge and sophistication to even realize it. It’s important to know the following three things: First, I have heard Evangelical ministers teach that God promises special heavenly rewards, beyond mere entry into heaven, to those followers of his Son who serve him with full faithfulness and diligence to the end. The reception of the fullness of these heavenly rewards is what we Latter-day Saints refer to as exaltation. Second, the easiest way to to make sense of this debate is to understand that whosoever is saved receives eternal life, or at least a portion thereof, but it is only the fully valiant and faithful who receive the fulness of eternal life. Third, it’s critically important to understand that in the verses I quoted above the promise of greater heavenly rewards is extended to those who have already come unto Christ and received his salvation. There would be absolutely no reason for the Savior and the Apostle Paul to solemnly urge the already saved to greater diligence in the hope of receiving heavenly rewards if those who were being thus encouraged already possessed all the gifts and blessings God has to offer. Edited January 31, 2018 by Bobbieaware
FormerLDS Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 5 hours ago, Maestrophil said: I appreciate you being patient and sincere in illustrating your viewpoint. I can understand the interpretation of the scripture you cited, and it helps me see your point. I still find it difficult to understand that a change of heart (the Lord looketh upon the heart) away from Christ would not separate a person from God. That a person could deny Christ after having accepted him, and WILLFULLY and repeatedly violate commandments and still obtain 'eternal life" does not register well with my understanding. Unless eternal life is what we all have through his grace - which is what I believe as an LDS - we all will be resurrected and receive a glory. If that is the case, then I suppose the LDS do believe what you are saying. The "eternal life" that Jesus Christ offers is completely different than LDS “eternal life”. Think of “eternal life” as a door prize given freely to you when you chose to believe, but Jesus Christ is is the one walking in, not you. Consider the words of Jesus Christ: “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.” Revelation 3:20 Those who receive "eternal life" are "born again" (inward man). Just as it is impossible for you to be physically un-born, you can never lose eternal life if you are born again. You will always be the son or daughter of your natural father. Is there anything you can do to change that? If you WILLFULLY and repeatedly violate his commandments, are you still his son or daughter? Similarly, once born again you have a new, heavenly father and nothing you can do will ever change that (Praise Jesus). Biblical "eternal life" is the starting point given the moment one believes wholly upon the savior, not a reward given during the final judgement after mortality. As a faithful, earnest, sincere member of good standing I realized that I did not have eternal life and it wasn't until I allowed eternal life to be a free gift that I could receive right now that I saw the truth and chose to believe.
Maestrophil Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 51 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Biblical "eternal life" is the starting point given the moment one believes wholly upon the savior, not a reward given during the final judgement after mortality. So is there more to come after the "starting point," or is that the end all, be all of it?
Anakin7 Posted February 1, 2018 Author Posted February 1, 2018 The Evangelical LDS in me- Once again for FormerLDS http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/kingdom.htm The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior
FormerLDS Posted February 1, 2018 Posted February 1, 2018 18 hours ago, Maestrophil said: So is there more to come after the "starting point," or is that the end all, be all of it? Yes, there are rewards that can be added according to one's faith, obedience and service, but again, those have nothing whatsoever to do with the "eternal life" that Jesus Christ gives.
FormerLDS Posted February 1, 2018 Posted February 1, 2018 1 hour ago, Anakin7 said: The Evangelical LDS in me- Once again for FormerLDS http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/kingdom.htm The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior Sorry Anakim7, I just really don't like to read links (people send me all the time), but I will read this one because I know you have the heart of a friend.
Maestrophil Posted February 1, 2018 Posted February 1, 2018 59 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Yes, there are rewards that can be added according to one's faith, obedience and service, but again, those have nothing whatsoever to do with the "eternal life" that Jesus Christ gives. Very interesting - so, other than the difference that LDS doctrine says you can become a son of perdition and go to outer darkness - your view as explained, and my view of LDS eternal life are remarkable similar. Thanks again for your patience and explanation.
FormerLDS Posted February 1, 2018 Posted February 1, 2018 3 hours ago, Maestrophil said: Very interesting - so, other than the difference that LDS doctrine says you can become a son of perdition and go to outer darkness - your view as explained, and my view of LDS eternal life are remarkable similar. Thanks again for your patience and explanation. I've never argued that LDS Christians weren't smarter than the average non-LDS Christian, but in all the years since I've separated from my Ward, there are a few things that have always remained consistent: 1. If you read on the internet that you can believe everything you read on the internet, would you believe it or not? Yet LDS (myself included) believe Moroni's Promise is God's test of truth because the Book of Mormon says it is! Just doesn't make sense. 2. Whenever my LDS friends agree with me in a doctrinal position, either they have misunderstood what I am saying or I have misunderstood what they are saying. The doctrines are that different - there is nothing "remarkably similar" about what the Bible says and what LDS theology says the Bible says.
Maestrophil Posted February 2, 2018 Posted February 2, 2018 18 hours ago, FormerLDS said: I've never argued that LDS Christians weren't smarter than the average non-LDS Christian, but in all the years since I've separated from my Ward, there are a few things that have always remained consistent: 1. If you read on the internet that you can believe everything you read on the internet, would you believe it or not? Yet LDS (myself included) believe Moroni's Promise is God's test of truth because the Book of Mormon says it is! Just doesn't make sense. 2. Whenever my LDS friends agree with me in a doctrinal position, either they have misunderstood what I am saying or I have misunderstood what they are saying. The doctrines are that different - there is nothing "remarkably similar" about what the Bible says and what LDS theology says the Bible says. Then I am afraid you have lost me. I see similarities. What are the dissimilar things then? 1. Accepting Christ leads to eternal life √ 2. It is a free gift of grace √ 3. We can never earn our way to salvation √ 4. There are rewards beyond Eternal Life √ 5. Our obedience to commandments is an outgrowth of our love and gratitude for salvation √ The difference that I see is that that gift can be rejected and lost in LDS theology. Without getting into the "different Christ" stuff - what differences am I overlooking other than the large one I mentioned?
FormerLDS Posted February 2, 2018 Posted February 2, 2018 2 hours ago, Maestrophil said: Then I am afraid you have lost me. I see similarities. What are the dissimilar things then? 1. Accepting Christ leads to eternal life √ 2. It is a free gift of grace √ 3. We can never earn our way to salvation √ 4. There are rewards beyond Eternal Life √ 5. Our obedience to commandments is an outgrowth of our love and gratitude for salvation √ The difference that I see is that that gift can be rejected and lost in LDS theology. Without getting into the "different Christ" stuff - what differences am I overlooking other than the large one I mentioned? Jesus Christ doesn't just offer a path or process that leads to eternal life. The difference is night and day for those willing to see the difference. Those who have the Son have eternal life and those who do not have the Son do not have eternal life. Consider the words of Jesus Christ: “Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:53-54
clarkgoble Posted February 2, 2018 Posted February 2, 2018 On 2/1/2018 at 3:11 PM, FormerLDS said: I've never argued that LDS Christians weren't smarter than the average non-LDS Christian, but in all the years since I've separated from my Ward, there are a few things that have always remained consistent: 1. If you read on the internet that you can believe everything you read on the internet, would you believe it or not? Yet LDS (myself included) believe Moroni's Promise is God's test of truth because the Book of Mormon says it is! Just doesn't make sense. 2. Whenever my LDS friends agree with me in a doctrinal position, either they have misunderstood what I am saying or I have misunderstood what they are saying. The doctrines are that different - there is nothing "remarkably similar" about what the Bible says and what LDS theology says the Bible says. I don't think most active members believe Moroni's promise because the Book of Mormon says it. Rather I think most believe it because they tried praying to God and got answers. i.e. they think it came from God. Ultimately it's only God that is the authority. So everything has to be grounded on personal revelation of some sort. To your second point, I'd simply not that "what the Bible says" is open to many interpretations. Thus the many schools of theology even among Protestantism let alone broad Christianity. It'd be helpful to say what theological perspective you're coming from. But I do agree a common problem in discussions especially between Mormons and Evangelicals is using very similar terms yet meaning quite different things by them.
Anakin7 Posted February 4, 2018 Author Posted February 4, 2018 On February 1, 2018 at 9:13 AM, FormerLDS said: Sorry Anakim7, I just really don't like to read links (people send me all the time), but I will read this one because I know you have the heart of a friend. Thank you, for my links to LDS Saint/Christian and non LDS Saint/Christian respond to your Love polemics. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment In His Blood In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 LDS Sentinel, Son Of Thunder Kryptonian Warrior
Maestrophil Posted February 5, 2018 Posted February 5, 2018 On 2/2/2018 at 12:30 PM, FormerLDS said: Jesus Christ doesn't just offer a path or process that leads to eternal life. The difference is night and day for those willing to see the difference. Those who have the Son have eternal life and those who do not have the Son do not have eternal life. Consider the words of Jesus Christ: “Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:53-54 Sweet. I have eternal life. :-) 1
FormerLDS Posted February 6, 2018 Posted February 6, 2018 22 hours ago, Maestrophil said: Sweet. I have eternal life. :-) Do you sustain the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as General Authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
T-Shirt Posted February 6, 2018 Posted February 6, 2018 On 2/1/2018 at 2:11 PM, FormerLDS said: 1. If you read on the internet that you can believe everything you read on the internet, would you believe it or not? Yet LDS (myself included) believe Moroni's Promise is God's test of truth because the Book of Mormon says it is! Just doesn't make sense. Why do you believe the King James Bible is the word of God? How do you know it is true?
Bobbieaware Posted February 6, 2018 Posted February 6, 2018 20 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Do you sustain the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as General Authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Two questions: 1) If you had been alive during the period when the Church of Christ was led by living apostles and prophets, would you have sustained Peter, James, John and the other apostles in their roles as the leaders of the Church and prophets of God? 2) Do you believe a member of the Church of Christ who lived during the Apostolic period could have rejected Peter, James and John as duly-authorized prophetic leaders of the Church and still be considered a member of the Church in good standing?
FormerLDS Posted February 6, 2018 Posted February 6, 2018 4 hours ago, T-Shirt said: Why do you believe the King James Bible is the word of God? How do you know it is true? I do not believe the Bible is true just because the Bible says it is true. I believe the King James Bible is the word of God because of the objective historical, archaeological, scientific and other evidence that can only be explained by omniscience. Additionally, there is subjective and prophetic evidence that would be very difficult to explain without God. The Bible is infinitely logical yet simple enough for a child to comprehend. For a book written over centuries by numerous authors, it is completely concise and rational revealing a single, coherent theology. The King James Bible has withstood the test of time as well as the attacks of atheists, skeptics, doubters, scoffers, unbelievers, cults, liars and the assault of Satan and his hatred for God and truth.
FormerLDS Posted February 6, 2018 Posted February 6, 2018 4 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: Two questions: 1) If you had been alive during the period when the Church of Christ was led by living apostles and prophets, would you have sustained Peter, James, John and the other apostles in their roles as the leaders of the Church and prophets of God? 2) Do you believe a member of the Church of Christ who lived during the Apostolic period could have rejected Peter, James and John as duly-authorized prophetic leaders of the Church and still be considered a member of the Church in good standing? The point is, LDS theology is in black and white and authorized by the FP. How can anyone disagree with the historical and authorized position the LDS church on the single most important doctrine? Just saying...I'm a former member because I disagree with LDS doctrinal positions.
Maestrophil Posted February 7, 2018 Posted February 7, 2018 8 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Do you sustain the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as General Authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Of course.
Bobbieaware Posted February 7, 2018 Posted February 7, 2018 2 hours ago, FormerLDS said: The point is, LDS theology is in black and white and authorized by the FP. How can anyone disagree with the historical and authorized position the LDS church on the single most important doctrine? Just saying...I'm a former member because I disagree with LDS doctrinal positions. Did the New Testament Church leaders have the right to produce many books of new scripture that contained revelations of “new” doctrines that the members of the Church were expected to believe and live by or be considered “out of the way?” Do you not realize that the members of the New Testament Church were placed in the exact same position the Latter-day Saints are in today? Why is it that Evangelivals never stop to realize the New Testament era Christians were members of a Church that was led by living apostles and prophets whom all the members were expected to sustain and obey? Do you realize the Church you belong to today doesn’t even faintly resemble the New Testament era Church of Christ? Do you realize the New Testament era Church members only knew of a Church led by living apostles and prophets and wouldn’t understand how the Church could possibly properly function without living apostles and prophets at the leadership helm?
clarkgoble Posted February 7, 2018 Posted February 7, 2018 5 hours ago, FormerLDS said: I believe the King James Bible is the word of God because of the objective historical, archaeological, scientific and other evidence that can only be explained by omniscience. Umm. What? I mean I believe in the Bible but it's only slightly less problematic than the Book of Mormon in terms of evidence for the narrative. 5 hours ago, FormerLDS said: The Bible is infinitely logical yet simple enough for a child to comprehend. Umm. What? I don't know many kids that could read the KJV of Ezekiel or Isaiah and get at what's being talked about. And I say that as someone who absolutely loves Isaiah.
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