SamuelTheLamanite Posted December 8, 2017 Posted December 8, 2017 (edited) Gay marriage is a very serious sin, we have to do everything possible to stop sinful activity because children deserve the right to be raised in a traditional family. If the Supreme Court decides to force Christians to make gay cakes, then I am afraid many of the younger generations are going to think gay marriage is acceptable. Why? An Irish scholar wrote, "Culture influences law, and law influences culture. For example, an egalitarian culture may establish laws that respect the rights of individuals and guarantee that these rights are not violated. By the same token, laws that enforce equal rights for men and women may foster a change in cultural values regarding the position of men and women in society. For example, several European countries now require a fixed percentage of women on corporate boards" God doesn't want our American culture to promote gay marriage. I hope the Supreme Court sides with the baker, if it happens then we Christians will have to right to say "No" to gay marriage. We can tell others to join us in saying "No". If our Christian movement grows then we won't find many bakers willing to make gay cakes. Our secular friends like to compare us to racists from the 1950s. An atheist said racism was everywhere in the country and out of control, so he argues the same can happen with gay bigotry. Come on! Atheists don't get it. We Christians are not racist or bigots for disagreeing with gay marriage. The atheists don't understand that Christian values make America Great. Edited December 8, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite 1
Robert F. Smith Posted December 8, 2017 Posted December 8, 2017 1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Gay marriage is a very serious sin, we have to do everything possible to stop sinful activity because children deserve the right to be raised in a traditional family. If the Supreme Court decides to force Christians to make gay cakes, Christians are not forced to bake gay cakes. The case before the Supreme Court seeks to require that all buyers of cakes in public businesses be treated the same. Should anti-Mormons who run a baking business be able to refuse to bake and decorate a cake for Mormons? We'll see what the final decision is. 1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: then I am afraid many of the younger generations are going to think gay marriage is acceptable. Why? An Irish scholar wrote, "Culture influences law, and law influences culture. For example, an egalitarian culture may establish laws that respect the rights of individuals and guarantee that these rights are not violated. By the same token, laws that enforce equal rights for men and women may foster a change in cultural values regarding the position of men and women in society. For example, several European countries now require a fixed percentage of women on corporate boards" God doesn't want our American culture to promote gay marriage. I hope the Supreme Court sides with the baker, if it happens then we Christians will have to right to say "No" to gay marriage. We can tell others to join us in saying "No". If our Christian movement grows then we won't find many bakers willing to make gay cakes. There is no such thing as a "gay cake," and America is governed by a Constitution which never mentions God or his preferences. We live in a pluralistic society, and we must learn to be tolerant of other beliefs and points of view. We are an egalitarian society, guaranteeing the equal protection of the law. Why are you opposed to that, Samuel? 1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Our secular friends like to compare us to racists from the 1950s. An atheist said racism was everywhere in the country and out of control, so he argues the same can happen with gay bigotry. Come on! Atheists don't get it. We Christians are not racist or bigots for disagreeing with gay marriage. The atheists don't understand that Christian values make America Great. Which "Christian" values? The ones which tried to exterminate the Mormons? The ones which used the Bible to justify slavery? The ones which spent centuries burning heretics at the stake? The "Christians" who spent centuries in religious warfare against other "Christians"? The Christians who dominated and colonized much of the world, and who held non-Christians in utter contempt? Roy Moore, who is supported by evangelical "Christians," just said that the USA was greatest during the period when slavery was legal. 2
kiwi57 Posted December 8, 2017 Posted December 8, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Gay marriage is a very serious sin, we have to do everything possible to stop sinful activity because children deserve the right to be raised in a traditional family. If the Supreme Court decides to force Christians to make gay cakes, then I am afraid many of the younger generations are going to think gay marriage is acceptable. Why? An Irish scholar wrote, "Culture influences law, and law influences culture. For example, an egalitarian culture may establish laws that respect the rights of individuals and guarantee that these rights are not violated. By the same token, laws that enforce equal rights for men and women may foster a change in cultural values regarding the position of men and women in society. For example, several European countries now require a fixed percentage of women on corporate boards" God doesn't want our American culture to promote gay marriage. I hope the Supreme Court sides with the baker, if it happens then we Christians will have to right to say "No" to gay marriage. We can tell others to join us in saying "No". If our Christian movement grows then we won't find many bakers willing to make gay cakes. Our secular friends like to compare us to racists from the 1950s. An atheist said racism was everywhere in the country and out of control, so he argues the same can happen with gay bigotry. Come on! Atheists don't get it. We Christians are not racist or bigots for disagreeing with gay marriage. The atheists don't understand that Christian values make America Great. Samuel, while I sympathise with your position in general, I'm afraid there are some important points you are overlooking. Firstly, if there is to be genuine separation between Church and State, the state cannot base its actions upon the religious views of any one group, whether the majority or otherwise. That doesn't mean that the State has to be atheist, but it must be secular, to the extent that it confines itself to regulating the secular activities of its citizens on secular grounds and nothing else. Secondly, I have been personally rather alarmed - and may I say, disgusted - by the extent to which a very visible minority of the gay population have chosen to weaponize SSM in order to punish their religious opponents. We might fairly describe this as a "gay backlash." A SCOTUS ruling in favour of the baker would effectively bring that gay backlash to an end, but I think it would be tragic if it triggered any kind of "Christian backlash" against the gay community. Rather, it should be greeted with humility and forbearance by believing Christians of every kind. I think that a favourable ruling by the SCOTUS would, after the dust has settled, lead to a result similar to the following: Gay activists would no longer be able to use SSM as a club with which to beat principled believers. This would be an unalloyed good. Most providers of custom or bespoke goods would continue to do what they have always done, namely to serve all comers as long as they are paid on time. Many providers who happen to be religious believers would maintain a principled opposition to SSM, but reason that what their customers choose to do with the goods they provide is the customers' business, and essentially has nothing to do with them, so they would also provide the goods requested. Some, like the jewelers who told a same sex couple that they supported conjugal marriage but would still supply the rings, may be subjected to various kinds of harassment, but I think that would ultimately fade. Some providers would themselves be SSM advocates, and might (in certain areas) flirt with refusing to provide custom goods for religious occasions, especially when the religion in question only recognised conjugal marriage. A few providers would follow the example of the Phillipses, and same-sex couples would have to walk a few more doors down the street (or, in more remote locations, go online) to find the goods they require. Samuel, I don't think the SSM legal genie is ever going to be stuffed back into the bottle, although I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the fashion die out. I agree that the SSM crowd have consciously adopted a rhetorical approach in which they draw an equivalence between their demands and the Civil Rights movement of the 1960's; and I also agree that that rhetoric is pretty much bogus. Hopefully the eminent judges will see through it. Edited December 8, 2017 by kiwi57 1
Jeanne Posted December 8, 2017 Posted December 8, 2017 10 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Gay marriage is a very serious sin, we have to do everything possible to stop sinful activity because children deserve the right to be raised in a traditional family. If the Supreme Court decides to force Christians to make gay cakes, then I am afraid many of the younger generations are going to think gay marriage is acceptable. Why? An Irish scholar wrote, "Culture influences law, and law influences culture. For example, an egalitarian culture may establish laws that respect the rights of individuals and guarantee that these rights are not violated. By the same token, laws that enforce equal rights for men and women may foster a change in cultural values regarding the position of men and women in society. For example, several European countries now require a fixed percentage of women on corporate boards" God doesn't want our American culture to promote gay marriage. I hope the Supreme Court sides with the baker, if it happens then we Christians will have to right to say "No" to gay marriage. We can tell others to join us in saying "No". If our Christian movement grows then we won't find many bakers willing to make gay cakes. Our secular friends like to compare us to racists from the 1950s. An atheist said racism was everywhere in the country and out of control, so he argues the same can happen with gay bigotry. Come on! Atheists don't get it. We Christians are not racist or bigots for disagreeing with gay marriage. The atheists don't understand that Christian values make America Great. Killing someone with a gun is a sin. We should surely get rid of all those people who make guns and sell them..let's shoot them all! 1
california boy Posted December 8, 2017 Posted December 8, 2017 8 hours ago, kiwi57 said: Samuel, while I sympathise with your position in general, I'm afraid there are some important points you are overlooking. Firstly, if there is to be genuine separation between Church and State, the state cannot base its actions upon the religious views of any one group, whether the majority or otherwise. That doesn't mean that the State has to be atheist, but it must be secular, to the extent that it confines itself to regulating the secular activities of its citizens on secular grounds and nothing else. Secondly, I have been personally rather alarmed - and may I say, disgusted - by the extent to which a very visible minority of the gay population have chosen to weaponize SSM in order to punish their religious opponents. We might fairly describe this as a "gay backlash." A SCOTUS ruling in favour of the baker would effectively bring that gay backlash to an end, but I think it would be tragic if it triggered any kind of "Christian backlash" against the gay community. Rather, it should be greeted with humility and forbearance by believing Christians of every kind. I think that a favourable ruling by the SCOTUS would, after the dust has settled, lead to a result similar to the following: Gay activists would no longer be able to use SSM as a club with which to beat principled believers. This would be an unalloyed good. Most providers of custom or bespoke goods would continue to do what they have always done, namely to serve all comers as long as they are paid on time. Many providers who happen to be religious believers would maintain a principled opposition to SSM, but reason that what their customers choose to do with the goods they provide is the customers' business, and essentially has nothing to do with them, so they would also provide the goods requested. Some, like the jewelers who told a same sex couple that they supported conjugal marriage but would still supply the rings, may be subjected to various kinds of harassment, but I think that would ultimately fade. Some providers would themselves be SSM advocates, and might (in certain areas) flirt with refusing to provide custom goods for religious occasions, especially when the religion in question only recognised conjugal marriage. A few providers would follow the example of the Phillipses, and same-sex couples would have to walk a few more doors down the street (or, in more remote locations, go online) to find the goods they require. Samuel, I don't think the SSM legal genie is ever going to be stuffed back into the bottle, although I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the fashion die out. I agree that the SSM crowd have consciously adopted a rhetorical approach in which they draw an equivalence between their demands and the Civil Rights movement of the 1960's; and I also agree that that rhetoric is pretty much bogus. Hopefully the eminent judges will see through it. Those uppity gays. What in the world are they thinking when they demand to be treated equally under the accommodation laws of this country. This has got to stop. The only way to put them in their place is if the Supreme Court allows us good christians to refuse to serve them.
Anijen Posted December 8, 2017 Posted December 8, 2017 10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Christians are not forced to bake gay cakes. The case before the Supreme Court seeks to require that all buyers of cakes in public businesses be treated the same. Should anti-Mormons who run a baking business be able to refuse to bake and decorate a cake for Mormons? We'll see what the final decision is. There is no such thing as a "gay cake," and America is governed by a Constitution which never mentions God or his preferences. We live in a pluralistic society, and we must learn to be tolerant of other beliefs and points of view. We are an egalitarian society, guaranteeing the equal protection of the law. Why are you opposed to that, Samuel? Which "Christian" values? The ones which tried to exterminate the Mormons? The ones which used the Bible to justify slavery? The ones which spent centuries burning heretics at the stake? The "Christians" who spent centuries in religious warfare against other "Christians"? The Christians who dominated and colonized much of the world, and who held non-Christians in utter contempt? Roy Moore, who is supported by evangelical "Christians," just said that the USA was greatest during the period when slavery was legal. First time in my life that I disagree with everything you have wrote.
Robert F. Smith Posted December 8, 2017 Posted December 8, 2017 40 minutes ago, Anijen said: First time in my life that I disagree with everything you have wrote. Did you mean to say "written," Antigen? 1
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