Facebook conversation

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Amulek said:

I've been a fan for some time, but I always thought the whole 'no religion in the future' thing was one of the most far fetched aspects of the Star Trek universe - though the 'no money' thing comes pretty close. 

Only stupid aliens have religions in Star Trek.

I did like the Ferengi afterlife. You bribe the doorkeeper to get in and they examine your profit/loss statements to determine whether you get into heaven.

[Yirgacheffe]

11 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

I realized before I expressed myself that my points likely wouldn't convince a hardcore atheist to believe in God. My point was that perhaps there's at least a way to explain to atheists why believers find the atheistic option so unappealing, and why people with healthy minds and positive outlooks would find it undesirable and unproductive to embrace a system of belief that affirms the good guys are going spectacularly to loose in the end. It could be that after this realization dawns on the atheists that some of them will come to understand their proselytizing mission is, of necessity, calculated to rob people of their belief that goodness, justice and love will reign triumphant in the end, and after all is said and done destroying faith, hope and a belief in perfect love isn't necessarily a very good thing to do., 

"understand their proselytizing mission is"

 

Yet believers are never expected to understand how their proselytizing mission is perceived by non-believers because believers have a right to practice their religion on non-believers whether they like it or not.

[Yirgacheffe]

10 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

So your argument is perfectly valid using the Deflationary Theory of Truth or the Pragmatic Theory of Truth.

I don't see how atheism is not perfectly valid using the Deflationary Theory of Truth or the Pragmatic Theory of Truth?

Edited September 8, 2017 by Yirgacheffe
To change punctuation because I meant it as a question.

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, Yirgacheffe said:

"understand their proselytizing mission is"

 

Yet believers are never expected to understand how their proselytizing mission is perceived by non-believers because believers have a right to practice their religion on non-believers whether they like it or not.

Were you horribly traumatized when the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on your door?

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Its not a fight and its not something to fear.  This is tribalism and loaded language.  He should open his mind to new concepts, consider that his earlier assumptions might have been wrong, but don't get him all geared up for battle.  Don't put up walls of defense.  How's that the path to greater learning?  Open up to understanding.  Let go of your dogmas.  

I agree to take things slowly and get educated.  Explore, dig deep, research, but don't prepare for battle.  Its not a war between good and evil information.  Its a struggle to find truth in a confusing environment with many different opinions.  Focus on critical thinking skills.  Learn about your biases, and challenge your biases.  Try to understand the perspectives of others, and seek for sources that try to balance the information and look at things as objectively as possible.  Continue to challenge the groups you are a part of, continue to try to avoid group think, continue to reassess and reappraise based on new information.  Continue to learn and grow, this is eternal progression, this is Mormonism.  

 

He's not ready for that, you were.

[Yirgacheffe]

38 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Were you horribly traumatized when the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on your door?

No, they were some group that was bused to the street turned shopping center I worked at in HS, after being badgered by them every single day I worked I resorted to hidding from them in my car in 90+ degree weather to eat my lunch.  I was frightened when one night one of them grabbed my arm and wouldn't let go when I yanked my arm free the 4 of them followed me to the parking lot until I saw a squad car and yelled to flag it down.  I truly detest proselytizers and do not believe a one of them has any respect for my point of view, they are all only about what is wrong with me and of course what is right with them.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

I am not sure why he keeps insisting that Ramsey Theory and Littlewood's law explain religion. Can you explain please? I am very bad at Math. 

Yes, I will have to eventually. There are a lot of things I still don't understand. 

Sure, let's talk about Ramsey Theory and Littlewood's law. I don't get why my friend thinks Ramsey Theory explains religion. You yourself are an Atheist so perhaps you can help me understand. 

 

Ramsey is ridiculous, and applies as well to science as religion.

Everything we know is based on brain states. We hallucinate reality every moment. I write a blog on it recently.

[Meerkat]

On 9/6/2017 at 10:56 PM, SamuelTheLamanite said:

The Atheists do know how to do some very good gymnastics to explain away everything  I think I am simply wasting my time with him because nothing helps him. He just keeps making clever arguments, but he won't listen to my main points.

You are here because God has spoken to you and given you a testimony.  A few years after joining the Church, I was given an anti-Mormon book to read.  I read it.  It was so disturbing, I could feel my core like it was on a shifting sand.  It made me sick.  Each page was about 1/3 page of footnotes from LDS sources.  The commentary was damning.  "Here is what their own materials say.  This (the 2/3 page) is what it means."

Fortunately, I had most of the sources they were referring to in my personal library.  I read most of the quotes in context and could readily see the author had twisted the meaning in most cases.  Still, it was literally sickening and depressing to see what they were saying about people that I deeply respected.  

I waded through about a month of deep discouragement with those points drifting in and out of my mind.  Fortunately, I had been given the Gift of the Holy Ghost that kept encouraging me.  God had given me a deep and beautiful testimony of the Prophet, Joseph Smith.  I knew the Book of Mormon was true. And I began to see that there was an adversary that was battling for my very soul.  I learned first hand that what happened to Joseph Smith when he went to the grove to pray was happening to me.  I had received a Testimony.  I knew it. God knew it.  And the Devil wanted to take it away.

I got rid of the anti Mormon book.  I began reading the Book of Mormon again and praying.  The Spirit came back into my life. I learned that if I want the joyful fruits of the Gospel in my life, I needed to feed my faith and stay away from those things that are designed by a very knowledgible adversary to tear it down.

This is the difference between your athiest friend and you.  He has no interest in spiritual things.  He is a modern day Korihor with an agenda that is actually fun for him.  He is feeding you things to destroy your faith.  There is a reason he will have none of what you are trying so valiantly to share with him.  And it is this:

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor. 2:12-14

You have done something that he can't do.  You have done something that the prophets and apostles, and even the newest member of the Church have done.  You have gone to Heavenly Father in meekness and lowliness of heart and He has communicated with you in a way your athiest friend will never understand until he humbles himself and approaches God in meekness as you have done.

This is what the Book of Mormon says, and think about whether this isn't exactly how God spoke to you:

"Behold, he changed their hearts; yea, he awakened them out of a deep sleep, and they awoke unto God. Behold, they were in the midst of darkness; nevertheless, their souls were illuminated by the light of the everlasting word; yea, they were encircled about by the bands of death, and the chains of hell, and an everlasting destruction did await them.
            8 And now I ask of you, my brethren, were they destroyed? Behold, I say unto you, Nay, they were not.
            9 And again I ask, were the bands of death broken, and the chains of hell which encircled them about, were they loosed? I say unto you, Yea, they were loosed, and their souls did expand, and they did sing redeeming love. And I say unto you that they are saved.
            10 And now I ask of you on what conditions are they saved? Yea, what grounds had they to hope for salvation? What is the cause of their being loosed from the bands of death, yea, and also the chains of hell?
            11 Behold, I can tell you—did not my father Alma believe in the words which were delivered by the mouth of Abinadi? And was he not a holy prophet? Did he not speak the words of God, and my father Alma believe them?
            12 And according to his faith there was a mighty change wrought in his heart. Behold I say unto you that this is all true.
            13 And behold, he preached the word unto your fathers, and a mighty change was also wrought in their hearts, and they humbled themselves and put their trust in the true and living God. And behold, they were faithful until the end; therefore they were saved."  Alma 5:7-13

I believe that's what happened to you because that's exactly what happened to me.  And I carry that joy with me.  And no fun loving, maybe even well meaning athiest or anti Mormon is ever going to take it away from me.  I know what I know because, whereas I was filled with sin and sorrow, Christ came into my life and took it all away and replaced it with a joy exactly as Alma said, MY soul did expand, and I do sing the song of redeeming love.

My dear friend Samuel, you have a Friend up above who knows you.  And you are going through a valuable experience that will strengthen your faith.  I can tell you have a wonderful humility about you that God responds to, as do your friends here on this post.  We can strengthen each other here. I relate to what mfbukowski said in his concern about coming across as condescending.  We are all equals here, trying to do our best for God and our fellow beings, whom we love. You are doing a great job.  Keep up the Good Work!

I conclude my post with the words of Helaman 3:35: "Nevertheless they did fast and pray oft, and did wax stronger and stronger in their humility, and firmer and firmer in the faith of Christ, unto the filling their souls with joy and consolation, yea, even to the purifying and the sanctification of their hearts, which sanctification cometh because of their yielding their hearts unto God."

[Meerkat]

19 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

they still will not believe you.

They are not interested in considering what you are saying. Their purpose is to influence you.  They are not speaking the language you were speaking when God reached you.  I have found this scripture helpful when I find myself engaging with people who are not willing or able to communicate on a level where both sides are edified:  "Again I say, hearken ye elders of my church, whom I have appointed: Ye are not sent forth to be taught, but to teach the children of men the things which I have put into your hands by the power of my Spirit;" D&C 43:15  When I find we are at an impass, I try to move on.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Meerkat

[SamuelTheLamanite]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Ramsey is ridiculous, and applies as well to science as religion.

Everything we know is based on brain states. We hallucinate reality every moment. I write a blog on it recently.

Please continue, can you quote portions of your blog post?  Why do Atheists argue Ramsey applies to both science and religion? 

[mfbukowski]

18 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Please continue, can you quote portions of your blog post?  Why do Atheists argue Ramsey applies to both science and religion? 

OOPS I apologize- I confused Ramsey's theory with another theory- I am sorry.  I got the names mixed up.  Nevertheless this may help some for another time.  I will look at Ramsey and comment in a bit.

My blog is found here: http://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2017/08/guest-post-justifying-visions/

 

Edited September 8, 2017 by mfbukowski

[Daniel2]

16 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

I was once a very convinced hardcore atheist who made a conscious decision to believe in God in spite of myself because I grew weary of  living a joyless, hopeless, meaningless life.

And for the first 30+ years of my life, I was once a very convinced hardcore Latter-day Saint who, despite my best efforts to maintain my 'testimony' of the gospel and convince myself otherwise, ultimately admitted to myself that the life I was leading within and according to Mormonism was joyless, hopeless, and meaningless.

Funny how we have traded places almost diametrically... Life is ironic, isn't it...?

I am glad you have found joy, hope, and meaning as a believer in Mormonism, and wish you continued joy, hope, and meaning on your journey.

I also maintain that I have found greater joy, purpose, hope, and meaning in living up to the full potential of my strengths and abilities--or to put it in language that may resonate more with you--in fulfilling the measure of my creation. 

And my experiences are a testament to me that just as you find hope and joy as a believer, I also optimistically live a life of hope, happiness, joy, and meaning as a spiritually-minded secular humanist, without maintaining a belief in G/god(s), and without surrendering to the pessimism and hopelessness of nihilism.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Meerkat said:

They are not interested in considering what you are saying. Their purpose is to influence you.  They are not speaking the language you were speaking when God reached you.  I have found this scripture helpful when I find myself engaging with people who are not willing or able to communicate on a level where both sides are edified:  "Again I say, hearken ye elders of my church, whom I have appointed: Ye are not sent forth to be taught, but to teach the children of men the things which I have put into your hands by the power of my Spirit;" D&C 43:15  When I find we are at an impass, I try to move on.

As always with you, excellent advice.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

OOPS I apologize- I confused Ramsey's theory with another theory- I am sorry.  I got the names mixed up.  Nevertheless this may help some for another time.  I will look at Ramsey and comment in a bit.

Yes please.  The description of The origin of countless conspiracy theories - PatrickJMT video says "Why can we find geometric shapes in the night sky? How can we know that at least two people in London have exactly the same number of hairs on their head? And why can patterns be found in just about any text — even Vanilla Ice lyrics? PatrickJMT describes the Ramsey theory, which states that given enough elements in a set or structure, some interesting pattern among them is guaranteed to emerge" No idea how the above applies to religion and conspiracy theories. You good at applied Mathematics? 

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

And for the first 30+ years of my life, I was once a very convinced hardcore Latter-day Saint who, despite my best efforts to maintain my 'testimony' of the gospel and convince myself otherwise, ultimately admitted to myself that the life I was leading within and according to Mormonism was joyless, hopeless, and meaningless.

Funny how we have traded places almost diametrically... Life is ironic, isn't it...?

I am glad you have found joy, hope, and meaning as a believer in Mormonism, and wish you continued joy, hope, and meaning on your journey.

I also maintain that I have found greater joy, purpose, hope, and meaning in living up to the full potential of my strengths and abilities--or to put it in language that may resonate more with you--in fulfilling the measure of my creation. 

And my experiences are a testament to me that just as you find hope and joy as a believer, I also optimistically live a life of hope, happiness, joy, and meaning as a spiritually-minded secular humanist, without maintaining a belief in G/god(s), and without surrendering to the pessimism and hopelessness of nihilism.

Very ironic you used LDS language there which perfectly describes my path INTO the church.

It was the only one I could find which made secular humanism (my former religion) into a religion I could believe based on evolving man into a god.

If man is the measure of all things, and man is the creator of god, all one has to do is make that small "g" a capital "G" and suddenly you have the notion that The Man of Holiness is the measure of all things and the Man of Holiness and the Creator of an endless stream in the Council of the Gods.

All one has to do is make secular humanism into an Archetype for Humanity- living as the Ideal Human- and what do you have??  The Church!

If the church actually understood this, we could be, and can yet be, the stone cut from the mountain filling the earth.

We have no clue what we have, just as you have no clue what you had.

But yes, that Archetype of Humanity includes all of humanity- not just half.   We need to "know" (Hebrew "yada"- look it up) all of humanity intimately to affirm humanity in all its glory.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

21 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

OOPS I apologize- I confused Ramsey's theory with another theory- I am sorry.  I got the names mixed up.  

It is okay. My friend keeps insisting that Littlewood's law and Ramsey Theory are related. He gets too complicated, my head hurts.

Edited September 8, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[Daniel2]

17 hours ago, Amulek said:

I've been a fan for some time, but I always thought the whole 'no religion in the future' thing was one of the most far fetched aspects of the Star Trek universe - though the 'no money' thing comes pretty close. 

While the ideas and values of secular humanism certainly resonate with me, and as much as I also enjoy Star Trek, I agree that humanity probably won't universally abandon religious beliefs for quite some time, if ever.

[mfbukowski]

54 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Yes please.  The description of The origin of countless conspiracy theories - PatrickJMT video says "Why can we find geometric shapes in the night sky? How can we know that at least two people in London have exactly the same number of hairs on their head? And why can patterns be found in just about any text — even Vanilla Ice lyrics? PatrickJMT describes the Ramsey theory, which states that given enough elements in a set or structure, some interesting pattern among them is guaranteed to emerge" No idea how the above applies to religion and conspiracy theories. You good at applied Mathematics? 

Applied mathematics relies on philosophy and I am pretty good at that.  Look at the underlying principles of Ramsey's argument- but I admit I have not done that yet- I am just going by your post.

Why we see patterns is pure psychology.  Actually this might help a bit after all- it was quoted in my blog.

One could say that all of human perception can be likened to spiritual experience.

https://www.ted.com/talks/anil_seth_how_your_brain_hallucinates_your_conscious_reality

Why did God make us?

To be baby Gods.  What do baby Gods do? They organize matter unorganized IN THEIR MINDS.  So the creation of patterns is precisely what God created us to do- organize matter unorganized into pictures, ideas, all of science, all of everything requires us to organize patterns.

The Rorty quote below addresses that- as well 

Everything anyone knows is a pattern in the mind!

That proves nothing about God other than he created us to be like him.  But I have not read about Ramsey yet- again I am just going on what you have said.

Edited September 8, 2017 by mfbukowski

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, Yirgacheffe said:

No, they were some group that was bused to the street turned shopping center I worked at in HS, after being badgered by them every single day I worked I resorted to hidding from them in my car in 90+ degree weather to eat my lunch.  I was frightened when one night one of them grabbed my arm and wouldn't let go when I yanked my arm free the 4 of them followed me to the parking lot until I saw a squad car and yelled to flag it down.  I truly detest proselytizers and do not believe a one of them has any respect for my point of view, they are all only about what is wrong with me and of course what is right with them.

Those sound like horrible people. You should have punched the person who grabbed you in the face.

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, Yirgacheffe said:

I don't see how atheism is not perfectly valid using the Deflationary Theory of Truth or the Pragmatic Theory of Truth?

Of course- both theism and atheism are perfectly "valid" in trying to prove either.  One cannot prove God exists- OR disprove it!!

Any course in logic will tell you you can have a "valid" syllogism with NO meaning whatsoever.  Here is one perfectly valid syllogism describing nothing- and doing it perfectly!

Quote

 

If X, then Y

x

Therefore Y

 

Perfectly valid- but no significance, meaningless !

Accurately DESCRIBING things is the problem.  

There is no one way of describing the world perfectly in language.  The world as God made it is out there- see the Rorty quote below- but DESCRIBING it in language is another thing!!

We only have our flawed human perceptions to go by and flawed human language- confounded at Babel should you like that parable- to express anything.

Trying to describe the Supreme Consciousness of the Universe with wormy level human consciousness just is not going to work from the beginning.  TRUTH- the way things are becomes invisible to us, so we just have to duke it out by faith!!

"Now we see as through a (mirror) darkly but then face to face"

We look out at the world and only see ourselves looking back in the mirror- all we see is the way our own brains work putting together perceptions.

So THAT is the way I see Deflationism describes the plight of Babel.  To use parables that might be "real"- our languages are now confounded and we CANNOT see "truth" except by the spirit.

But then describe the spirit?  

It is beyond language!!  But we "know it when we see it!"

Thanks for asking that that way- it gets to the heart of the issue immediately!

So does that mean that nothing is "true" or "false"?

Not at all- "truth" is just a word attempting to describe something.  WE know what it means- we just cannot define it

We know in a court of law what it means to "tell the truth" but in the final analysis is any human perception "true"?   We teach children to tell the truth and know what that means in simple terms.  It's to "tell it like it is"

But when we get into discussing the TRUTH of "truth" things break down.  After all truth is a word in a human language- so of course the discussion breaks down!!

Edited September 8, 2017 by mfbukowski

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, Daniel2 said:

And for the first 30+ years of my life, I was once a very convinced hardcore Latter-day Saint who, despite my best efforts to maintain my 'testimony' of the gospel and convince myself otherwise, ultimately admitted to myself that the life I was leading within and according to Mormonism was joyless, hopeless, and meaningless.

Funny how we have traded places almost diametrically... Life is ironic, isn't it...?

I am glad you have found joy, hope, and meaning as a believer in Mormonism, and wish you continued joy, hope, and meaning on your journey.

I also maintain that I have found greater joy, purpose, hope, and meaning in living up to the full potential of my strengths and abilities--or to put it in language that may resonate more with you--in fulfilling the measure of my creation. 

And my experiences are a testament to me that just as you find hope and joy as a believer, I also optimistically live a life of hope, happiness, joy, and meaning as a spiritually-minded secular humanist, without maintaining a belief in G/god(s), and without surrendering to the pessimism and hopelessness of nihilism.

Who can even begin to argue that the everlasting extinction in which you believe can even begin to compare in the slightest with life everlasting, an everlasting and glorious existence in which to live, learn, grow, improve, progress, enjoy and love? What a tragedy that in the scenario you believe you will, sooner or later, forever remain an unfinished work, cut off forever from the life of progression in knowledge, wisdom, love and enjoyment in which you are now enthusiasticly engaged. For you believe in an absolute extinction in which all that you now enjoy and hold dear will be torn from you forever, as if you never existed or made any meaningful difference.

I once made the conscious decision to believe in a perfectly just, merciful and loving God who will continue love, cherish and nurture me forever. And I did so because I decided that even if that belief didn't turn out to be true it most certainly is the way things ought to be, for it represents, at very least,  a vast improvement over the notion of the eternal extinction and forever unredressed injustices in which you believe. And I'm happy to say after taking that initial leap into the realm of faith that God has turned on the lights of understanding and I now know for a surety, like Nephi of old, that God is real and the gospel of Jesus Christ is true. 

Conversely, how sad it is for one to believe he will foreever remain an unfinished work, and that the continued blessing he otherwise might have been to the loved ones who surround him will be stamped out of existence forever, as if he never existed. How sad it is to think we will all be destroyed forever as if we are are all worthless, as if there is nothing in any of us worth preserving, nurturing and loving forever. How much more glorious is Christ's  gospel of everlasting life and love when compared to the anti-gospel of everlasting death?

Edited September 8, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[mfbukowski]

29 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Those sound like horrible people. You should have punched the person who grabbed you in the face.

I hate it when people grab me in the face.

Here in LA we have a plumber's ad on radio that bemoans that one cannot find a plumber who will "tell me how much it costs to clean my clogged drain over the phone"

THAT is one feat I want to see.  No wonder it is expensive.  I didn't know that technology existed.

 

Edited September 8, 2017 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

49 minutes ago, Daniel2 said:

While the ideas and values of secular humanism certainly resonate with me, and as much as I also enjoy Star Trek, I agree that humanity probably won't universally abandon religious beliefs for quite some time, if ever.

Here is a secular humanist who says secular humanism is a religion and I agree with him.   He wrote this just before he died.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2013/04/04/religion-without-god/

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

It is okay. My friend keeps insisting that Littlewood's law and Ramsey Theory are related. He gets too complicated, my head hurts.

Your friend is just trying to confuse you.  Here is a simple explanation of Littlewood's law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littlewood's_law

One interpretation is that miracles happen every day.  So what?  Do we make up "miracles"?

The spirit tells us differently.  Do we make THAT up?  IS everything made up?  

That argument goes nowhere- so I don't know what your friend is saying here.

Ramsey's Theory as much as I can see, is about human perception and is very complex.  As you intuitively understand, it seems to have absolutely NOTHING to do with religion.

I think your friend is trying to say that humans have a tendency to see patterns in everything and therefore seeing patterns is "false" and means that religion and visions etc are "made up"

If we see patterns everywhere, created in the human mind,  the VALID conclusions would be that EVERYTHING is made up then.   So when happens when we go over a cliff- is that made up?

I don't know where he is going from your description- don't let him confuse you more.  Get a new friend!

Arguments like that tend to be meaningless because they are so vague.  Clearly we do not SEE everything as "made up" so it explains nothing!!

It is like saying "Everything is made of cream cheese"

Not a very useful way to view the world.

Again I still recommend this video: https://www.ted.com/talks/anil_seth_how_your_brain_hallucinates_your_conscious_reality

At the end of the video he says "There is nothing" and of course that is where we differ.  Consciousness goes on- he just does not know that and cannot prove otherwise.

 

Edited September 8, 2017 by mfbukowski

[Daniel2]

25 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Here is a secular humanist who says secular humanism is a religion and I agree with him.   He wrote this just before he died.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2013/04/04/religion-without-god/

 

I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying here... but whether or not secular humanism should be labeled as a "religion" is really just an exercise in semantics of how "religion" should be defined.  It doesn't particularly relate to the concept of "belief in God" vs. "not believing in God," which seems to me to be the core of what this topic is mostly focused on.