What became of Abraham and Isaac's people?

[katherine the great]

When Abraham (Abram) left Mesopotamia, he already had a sizeable household—just no heir.  He acquired more household members when he went into Egypt and was gifted a significant amount of wealth and servants. Apparently Abraham made a gift of some of these acquisitions to his nephew Lot because they both had very large households, so large that “They could not dwell together” and had to separate. Shortly thereafter when Abraham went to battle, he had at least 318 trained men who had been “born into his household” and each of these men presumably had parents who were household members and many of them likely had a wife and children of their own. If I were to make a very conservative estimate  I’d say that Abraham’s house consisted of at least 1,000 people well before Isaac was born (probably closer to 2000).

At the time of Ishmael’s circumcision, Abraham himself and every man in his household were also circumcised, bringing them all under the Abrahamic covenant.  Later, of course, Isaac takes over as patriarch and lived to be a very old man. It is reasonable to assume that the people (but not descendants) of Abraham had thousands of descendants who stayed around under the leadership of Isaac and later, Jacob. Besides his wives and children, Jacob also brought other people to the group from Mesopotamia. Before he returned to his father he confiscated all idolatrous contraband from his people.  These people then likely carried on the religious traditions of circumcision and animal sacrifice. I would assume that some of the sons and grandsons of Jacob took wives from among these descendants of Abraham’s and Jacob’s households—probably descendants of Mesopotamians, Canaanites and Egyptians. So my question is this: What happened to all of those people? Did some of them go with Esau or would they have likely have stayed under the protection of the heir Jacob and become Israelites? If so, did they travel with Jacob to Egypt when he went to find Joseph and become established with a tribe, or did they stay in the promised land? If they stayed, what happened to them? Inquiring minds want to know the things the Bible does not explain.

[RevTestament]

These were the first "Hebrews" of the Bible - this suggests they stayed within the house, and their descendants worked for Isaac. I don't believe there is much more scripture on point.

First place "Hebrew" is used in the Scriptures:

Genesis 14:13

13 ¶ And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the ^aHebrew; for he dwelt ^bin the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram.

Interesting that Abraham is specifically identified as allied with Amorites.

[katherine the great]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

These were the first "Hebrews" of the Bible - this suggests they stayed within the house, and their descendants worked for Isaac. I don't believe there is much more scripture on point.

First place "Hebrew" is used in the Scriptures:

Is it possible that these first Hebrews eventually became groups like the Shasu of Ywh?

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, katherine the great said:

When Abraham (Abram) left Mesopotamia, he already had a sizeable household—just no heir.  He acquired more household members when he went into Egypt and was gifted a significant amount of wealth and servants. Apparently Abraham made a gift of some of these acquisitions to his nephew Lot because they both had very large households, so large that “They could not dwell together” and had to separate. Shortly thereafter when Abraham went to battle, he had at least 318 trained men who had been “born into his household” and each of these men presumably had parents who were household members and many of them likely had a wife and children of their own. If I were to make a very conservative estimate  I’d say that Abraham’s house consisted of at least 1,000 people well before Isaac was born (probably closer to 2000).

318 retainers does not necessarily  mean that Abe had from 1000 to 2000 total immediate followers.  That would be an enormous number, and perhaps unwieldy.  More likely that his immediate retinue was much smaller, but that, in emergencies, he could call upon kinship groups to join him -- as has been typical of Arab tribes.

6 hours ago, katherine the great said:

At the time of Ishmael’s circumcision, Abraham himself and every man in his household were also circumcised, bringing them all under the Abrahamic covenant.  Later, of course, Isaac takes over as patriarch and lived to be a very old man. It is reasonable to assume that the people (but not descendants) of Abraham had thousands of descendants who stayed around under the leadership of Isaac and later, Jacob. Besides his wives and children, Jacob also brought other people to the group from Mesopotamia. Before he returned to his father he confiscated all idolatrous contraband from his people.  These people then likely carried on the religious traditions of circumcision and animal sacrifice. I would assume that some of the sons and grandsons of Jacob took wives from among these descendants of Abraham’s and Jacob’s households—probably descendants of Mesopotamians, Canaanites and Egyptians. So my question is this: What happened to all of those people? Did some of them go with Esau or would they have likely have stayed under the protection of the heir Jacob and become Israelites? If so, did they travel with Jacob to Egypt when he went to find Joseph and become established with a tribe, or did they stay in the promised land? If they stayed, what happened to them? Inquiring minds want to know the things the Bible does not explain.

Endogamous groups of this kind grow too large and then split off into separate clans, even though they continue to intermarry at times.  Recent DNA studies suggest that "a Bronze Age Canaanite-related ancestry was widespread in the region, shared among urban populations inhabiting the coast (Sidon) and inland populations (Jordan) who likely lived in farming societies or were pastoral nomads."  This supports the notion that "the different cultural groups who inhabited the Levant during the Bronze Age, such as the Ammonites, Moabites, Israelites, and Phoenicians, each achieved their own cultural identities but all shared a common genetic and ethnic root with Canaanites."  This is a genetic continuity which continues even into modern times in that same region.  Marc Haber, et al., “Continuity and Admixture in the Last Five Millennia of Levantine History from Ancient Canaanite and Present-Day Lebanese Genome Sequences,” The American Journal of Human Genetics, published online: July 27, 2017  (DOI: 10.1016/j.ajhg.2017.06.013), online at  http://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(17)30276-8 . 

[Guest]

It does make one wonder, concerning them. After Abraham took his son Isaac, to sacrifice at Golgotha. It is believed by some Jewish scholars that he never returned home. Not until he received the news of Sarah's death.  But he did go on to marry again, more than once it would seem. Once Jacob "wrestled with an angel" (or God) and became Israel, and his family God's chosen people, little else is known of Abraham and Isaac's lineage. Usually when any are mentioned, in is in relation to individuals who cross paths with Israel and his children. Although it would make the scriptures so much larger, it would be nice to know about his daughters as well. But unless special circumstances occur, little is ever said of women in scripture. But when it does, it is wonderful stories. My sister was given a book when she was 12, called "Women of the Bible", I must have read it 20 times, as I loved stories of the OT. I think I have it now, I was given all the pictures and books that my Mother had collected over her lifetime. 

Now of course we do know of one other son of Abraham and what happened to his people. Ishmael, the son of Abraham and Hagar. Whom he turned out into the wilderness, and who nearly died. A fact that troubles me about an otherwise great and righteous man. In whom such promise was given, and through which "we" are blessed. Ishmael's 12 sons are who became the Arab people, and probably the (true) "Indian Nations" of India and Pakastan (hope I spelled this correctly), who seem to light up the evening news, without fail, both the sons of Isaac and Ishmael. It would be safe to say that almost every person on earth seems to have some of the blood, of the "descendants of Abraham". For this I would point to almost every commercial about, (or for) "Ancestry.com", where one can have their DNA tested. In addition, in the NT, Galatians 3: 24-29, all who accept the "Gospel of Jesus Christ", become  "Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise".

Also, I have found that one of the greatest sources of learning in our Standard Works, is the Bbile Dictionary. It is filled with insight and wonderful teachings. It not only gives definitions, it also gives the scripture that speak of it. In addition, it also teaches us doctrine as well. One of my favorite gems I discovered in the Bible Dictionary, was the definition of "Temples". It reads in part, "A place where the Lord may come, it is the most holy place of worship on the earth. Only the home can compare with the Temple in sacredness." This is a wonderful teaching that also brings us back to the "blessings of Abraham, his literal and Spiritual linage. I am currently reading in the Bible Dictionary on the topic of Abraham, as your thread has peaked my interest. So, I may post more later. Thanks KTG, you have given me a topic of study this week.  So I hope to have more to report, if only to enlighten my mind and soul. 

As always forgive any errors, as my back seldom can withstand sitting in straight back chair, using a laptop or keyboard. These days 99.9% of everything I write is on an iPad while in bed or an easy chair with the IPad propped up on my legs. But, I can't work or get out much, so I do LOVE, the challenge of still taking part. 

[RevTestament]

14 hours ago, katherine the great said:

Is it possible that these first Hebrews eventually became groups like the Shasu of Ywh?

I'm sure Lot referred to himself as Hebrew as well. The etymology of Shasu is really unknown, but it seems to start being used by the New Kingdom of Egypt in reference to a people in Canaan after I believe Israel would have left Egypt. It also seems to have some geographical reference to a people in the south desert. One Egyptian record specifically references Edom:

"Another communication to my Lord: We have finished letting the Shasu tribes of Edom pass the fortress of Merneptah Hotep-hir-Maat…which is in Tjeku, to the pools of Per Atum of Merneptah Hotep-hir-Maat, which are in Tkeku, to keep them alive and to keep their cattle alive…" (Siegfried Herrmann, Israel in Egypt (Naperville, IL: Alec R. Allenson Inc., 1973). p. 25.)

History has never definitively linked YWH to a place name..Therefore, it seems the Shasu of YHWH is a reference to the Edomites or descendants of Esau. It possibly could have also been used in reference to the people of Lot just to the north of early Edom as well, and possibly the Israelites. However, two Egyptian sources in roughly this same time period specifically mention Israel as a political entity in Canaan, and the word Shasu is not found used in conjunction with "Israel" in the Egyptian records. Why did the Egyptians call them Shasu? I really cannot say. Maybe it just referred to their bedouin status.

But to specifically answer your question, yes, the Edomites probably thought of themselves as Hebrews since they were descendants of Abraham, and they are specifically referred to as Shasu by the Egyptians.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 7/31/2017 at 9:39 AM, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

.............................. Abraham took his son Isaac, to sacrifice at Golgotha. ....................................

Abraham is said to have taken Isaac to Mount Moriah, which the Jews today associate with the highest point on the Jerusalem Temple Mount, but I know of no tradition that would have the sacrifice about to take place on Calvary.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Abraham is said to have taken Isaac to Mount Moriah, which the Jews today associate with the highest point on the Jerusalem Temple Mount, but I know of no tradition that would have the sacrifice about to take place on Calvary.

Part of the same range of hills I believe, if I am mistaken do forgive. ETA: Maybe it was The Garden of Gethsemane is was thinking of instead. Let me research and get back. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Bill "Papa" Lee

[katherine the great]

On 7/31/2017 at 1:11 PM, RevTestament said:

I'm sure Lot referred to himself as Hebrew as well. The etymology of Shasu is really unknown, but it seems to start being used by the New Kingdom of Egypt in reference to a people in Canaan after I believe Israel would have left Egypt. It also seems to have some geographical reference to a people in the south desert. One Egyptian record specifically references Edom:

"Another communication to my Lord: We have finished letting the Shasu tribes of Edom pass the fortress of Merneptah Hotep-hir-Maat…which is in Tjeku, to the pools of Per Atum of Merneptah Hotep-hir-Maat, which are in Tkeku, to keep them alive and to keep their cattle alive…" (Siegfried Herrmann, Israel in Egypt (Naperville, IL: Alec R. Allenson Inc., 1973). p. 25.)

History has never definitively linked YWH to a place name..Therefore, it seems the Shasu of YHWH is a reference to the Edomites or descendants of Esau. It possibly could have also been used in reference to the people of Lot just to the north of early Edom as well, and possibly the Israelites. However, two Egyptian sources in roughly this same time period specifically mention Israel as a political entity in Canaan, and the word Shasu is not found used in conjunction with "Israel" in the Egyptian records. Why did the Egyptians call them Shasu? I really cannot say. Maybe it just referred to their bedouin status.

But to specifically answer your question, yes, the Edomites probably thought of themselves as Hebrews since they were descendants of Abraham, and they are specifically referred to as Shasu by the Egyptians.

Just out of curiosity, did the Edomites follow in any of the religious traditions of Abraham? Were they monotheists? My knowledge of the Shasu YWY comes strictly from a History channel show but I remember being fascinated by their existence and their connection with the god Yahweh (presumably).

[RevTestament]

7 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

Just out of curiosity, did the Edomites follow in any of the religious traditions of Abraham? Were they monotheists? My knowledge of the Shasu YWY comes strictly from a History channel show but I remember being fascinated by their existence and their connection with the god Yahweh (presumably).

History reveals very little about the history of the Edomites. Interestingly, there is a scripture naming its capital, Bozrah, as a place from which one would come in  garments died red which I take to be a figurative passage.

David subdued Edom to the Israelites but it continued as an entity until Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Bozrah. After that it seems the children of Ishmael were able to move in, so the remaining Edomites apparently mixed with the Nabataean Ishmaelites who by that time were pagans, and worshiped multiple idolatrous gods according to archaeology. The area became known as Idumea to the Greeks and was where Herod was from.

At the time of Moses, however, the Lord was careful to instruct Moses not to bother the Edomites, so presumably at the time they were worshiping the Lord in a manner at least somewhat pleasing to him. Whether they had any direct guidance from the Lord though seems unknown. I do believe the Lord guided the children of Lot in Ammon, but the Jews take exception to the Biblical references to the Ammonite prophet who spoke to the children of Israel in the conquest - Jews tend to think the Lord will only talk to them.

There is evidence later of a god called Qos by the Edomites, but this may have been who the Israelites called YHWH.

"Certain extrabiblical evidence may also bear witness to the southern origins of Yahweh. Three of the inscriptions from Kuntillet ‘Ajrud contain the words “YHWH of Teman,” which may indicate that Yahweh was revered in Edom, specifically in Teman." http://bibliotecadigital.uca.edu.ar/repositorio/revistas/toward-new-synthesis-god-edom.pdf

Kuntillet Ajrud was a fortress built by David/Solomon on the border with Egypt, which was later abandoned. 

I have not closely studied Edom, but there are other archaeological references which indicate they worshiped YHWH. although we must remember that YHWH told Moses the predecessors did not know him by the name YHWH, so Esau would probably have referred to the Lord as El Shaddai, but in an earlier form of the name using El. However, at the time of the exodus and conquest there is an obscure Egyptian record (13th-century BC - which seems to be the reference you brought up) discussing a region in Edom associated with JWH, possibly indicating that JWH was a national god of Edom - a spelling suggestive of the Hebrew YHWH. So perhaps at that time the  Edomites had adopted the  name given to Israel as the Egyptian references to the "Shasu of YHWH" suggests..

As to any of the specific religious practices of the early Edomites - I really have no idea. Presumably Essau would have passed on practices he learned from Isaac, but how long this continued is unknown. The Midianites, however, apparently kept the faith for awhile as Moses', father-in-law Jethro seems to have up to the time of Moses. We really don't know much about Jethro tho other than that the priesthood passed through him to Moses and Aaron. Perhaps Jethro was an Edomite living in Midian as their priest. We don't know of any relationship with Caleb from whom Jethro received the priesthood D&C 84. I generally regard Keturah as a legal free wife of Abraham rather than as a concubine suggested by our present Gen 25. In other words I doubt Keturah was a bond woman. As a free woman the law of the time regarded her as a full legal wife. The practice of the time seemed to be to usually marry two wives who maintained separate households. Often they were cousins. They each had full inheritance rights of their household lands. Although Genesis says Abraham gave everything to Isaac this probably did not include the right of Keturah to pass her lands to her progeny. Indeed the pattern fits the Cushite tradition of the second wife living to the south, and her progeny living there. This is where we find Keturah's progeny - the Midianites, Dedanites, etc, who got the better coastlands along the Red Sea of Arabia. So in short there is reason to believe that the priesthood passed down through Keturah's sons from Abraham, as well as Essau's lineage. We're talking  500 years to the days of Moses tho. 

[katherine the great]

30 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I have not closely studied Edom, but there are other archaeological references which indicate they worshiped YHWH. although we must remember that YHWH told Moses the predecessors did not know him by the name YHWH, so Esau would probably have referred to the Lord as El Shaddai, but in an earlier form of the name using El. However, at the time of the exodus and conquest there is an obscure Egyptian record (13th-century BC - which seems to be the reference you brought up) discussing a region in Edom associated with JWH, possibly indicating that JWH was a national god of Edom - a spelling suggestive of the Hebrew YHWH. So perhaps at that time the  Edomites had adopted the  name given to Israel as the Egyptian references to the "Shasu of YHWH" suggests..

Very interesting info. Thank you! It's interesting to me when we look back on history to see how groups of people separate and go through phases of being enemies and allies through the years. IIRC, a subset of Edom eventually became the Idumeans and were absorbed back into Judah? Anyway, thank you for your insight.