hagoth7 Posted July 19, 2017 Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) When the wise [men] are described in Matthew, what gender were they? Men? Women? EIther? I can't ferret enough out of biblehub.com to see the distinction. Greek is greek to me. But does the Greek demand that one interpret them be wise *men*, Or could certain women have been among that company? Does the Greek speak to the gender of the people, or only the grammatical gender of the word? Thanks in advance. Something that I've been wondering about for a while, but am just now getting around to asking. Added: Changed the title from Wise Men to Wise-dom/dum (Sophia) 1. In reference to Jacob's counsel, including all of 2 Nephi 9 https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/9.42-54?lang=eng&clang=eng#p41 2. And in reference to the ounsel to the seven churches, as found in Revelation. 3. And as a tip of the hat to a nickname/byword extended to me years ago, and to the one who coined it. Edited July 20, 2017 by hagoth7
Robert F. Smith Posted July 19, 2017 Posted July 19, 2017 They were magi (μάγοι), and could theoretically have included women, except that women did not fulfill such roles at that time.. We don't even know how many of them there were. 1
Bobbieaware Posted July 19, 2017 Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, hagoth7 said: When the wise [men] are described in Matthew, what gender were they? Men? Women? EIther? I can't ferret enough out of biblehub.com to see the distinction. Greek is greek to me. But does the Greek demand that one interpret them be wise *men*, Or could certain women have been among that company? Does the Greek speak to the gender of the people, or only the grammatical gender of the word? Thanks in advance. Something that I've been wondering about for a while, but am just now getting around to asking. ROBERT J MATTHEWS: "The concept of the worldwide mission and activity of Jesus, as God of all mankind, gives us some insight into the role of the wise men spoken of in Matthew chapter 2. Their mission was unique. They could not be ordinary men. They were no doubt special emissaries, prophets, if you will, coming from a land east of Palestine, to carry back to their own people a firsthand, personal knowledge of the birth of their Lord, Jesus Christ. They were spiritual men, with a mission, who knew what they were looking for. They were indeed wise men from the East-not astrologers or magicians, but prophets or seers, which is the wisest class of all men. And theirs was the greatest of all quests, as they sought the Son of God, the fount of all wisdom." (Robert J. Matthews, The Book of Mormon: The Keystone Scripture, edited by Paul R. Cheesman, p. 27.) BRUCE R MCCONKIE: "To suppose they were members of the apostate religious cult of the Magi of ancient Media and Persia is probably false. Rather, it would appear they were true prophets, righteous persons like Simeon, Anna, and the shepherds, to whom Deity revealed that the promised Messiah had been born among men. Obviously they were in possession of ancient prophecies telling of the rise of a new star at his birth. That they did receive revelation for their personal guidance is seen from the inspired dream in which they were warned not to return to Herod after they had found and worshiped the Son of Mary." (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 1:103.) Edited July 19, 2017 by Bobbieaware
hagoth7 Posted July 19, 2017 Author Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: ROBERT J MATTHEWS: [input from a scholar] "The concept of the worldwide mission and activity of Jesus, as God of all mankind, gives us some insight into the role of the wise men spoken of in Matthew chapter 2. Their mission was unique. They could not be ordinary men. They were no doubt special emissaries, prophets, if you will, coming from a land east of Palestine, to carry back to their own people a firsthand, personal knowledge of the birth of their Lord, Jesus Christ. They were spiritual men, with a mission, who knew what they were looking for. They were indeed wise men from the East-not astrologers or magicians, but prophets or seers, which is the wisest class of all men. And theirs was the greatest of all quests, as they sought the Son of God, the fount of all wisdom." (Robert J. Matthews, The Book of Mormon: The Keystone Scripture, edited by Paul R. Cheesman, p. 27.) BRUCE R MCCONKIE:[input from an apostle] "To suppose they were members of the apostate religious cult of the Magi of ancient Media and Persia is probably false. Rather, it would appear they were true prophets, righteous persons like Simeon, Anna, and the shepherds, to whom Deity revealed that the promised Messiah had been born among men. Obviously they were in possession of ancient prophecies telling of the rise of a new star at his birth. That they did receive revelation for their personal guidance is seen from the inspired dream in which they were warned not to return to Herod after they had found and worshiped the Son of Mary." (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 1:103.) Perfect. Thank you!!! "Could not be ordinary men." [cue: Eowyn's helm/sword] Edited July 19, 2017 by hagoth7
hagoth7 Posted July 19, 2017 Author Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) So there's also nothing that required each of them to have been adults. A halfling could have even been among them. Even a little drummer boy/girl. Edited July 19, 2017 by hagoth7
hagoth7 Posted July 19, 2017 Author Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) What might b/parumpapumpum mean? Simply a percussion sound? Or is some meaning intentionally embedded there? Edited July 19, 2017 by hagoth7
Gray Posted July 19, 2017 Posted July 19, 2017 22 minutes ago, hagoth7 said: So there's also nothing that required each of them to have been adults. A halfling could have even been among them. Even a little drummer boy/girl. Perhaps even a dwarf or a pointy-eared elf?
hagoth7 Posted July 19, 2017 Author Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: They were magi (μάγοι), and could theoretically have included women.. Thank you. 7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: ...except that women did not fulfill such roles at that time... (I'm guessing you've offered that tongue in cheek.) When Neo first met Trinity, and he implied something similar to what you've lobbed nice and easy over the plate, Trinity replied with something very similar, but with a wee bit of topspin/sting. Cue: the haflling's sword. 7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: ..We don't even know how many of them there were. Perhaps as many as an entire host (retinue)? Any jealous/self-seeking king (Herod) would view a retinue sent to herald a competing prince/king as cause to spy out and even end the perceived threat. A host deemed heavenly, even? Not dismissing the reality of messengers literally/spatially *from* heaven...but the economy of heaven described by Joseph suggests that mortals of the heavenly kind (dispatched/commissioned by heaven) would largely suffice, and could be deemed to fit at least much of the ticket of Matthew...and Luke. At least, that works for me. However one chooses to parse it, guessing per Mathew and Luke, that they came prepared with songs sung and unsung. cue: young drummer. Edited July 19, 2017 by hagoth7
hagoth7 Posted July 19, 2017 Author Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, Gray said: Perhaps even a dwarf...? The "dwarf" or diminutive perception in northern Europe was a misread of the earlier texts. (Or an intentional kenning derived from such texts.) Some might say it's akin to early statues depicting Moses with horns, which was later claimed to be due to a mistranslation. Case in point, "Minor" and "Inferior" or similar words used on maps and in ancient geographic descriptions to describe regions/peoples was not meant to mean those lands/peoples were small in size, but rather that they had submitted to conquest. Conquered Germania? Minor/Inferior. Free Germania? Germania Major. Etc. That's why dwarves are depicted thumbing the razor-sharp edge of their axe. And say things like one did at the council of Elrond/Rivendell: "Certain death? Small chance of success? What are we waiting for?" Such people, subjected to grinding tyranny or misery, stand nothing to lose and everything to gain...given one glimmering chance. Cue: Jim and Lauren, Dumb and Dumber: "What are my chances?..." The smith who was said in medieval Europe to be the wisest of all smiths (until Joseph and Hyrum) was initially subjected...but found a way out. Depicted on the Franks Casket side by side with the Wise Men Host and other pivotal scenes. Cue 1 Nephi 3. Edited July 20, 2017 by hagoth7
hagoth7 Posted July 19, 2017 Author Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Gray said: Perhaps even...a pointy-eared elf? Yep. Fun suggestion. Likely true. Edited July 19, 2017 by hagoth7
RevTestament Posted July 19, 2017 Posted July 19, 2017 Few realize that to the east at that time lay the Parthian Empire - an Empire Rome failed to defeat. Which actually had successfully invaded Syria and put Rome on its heels. Hence, when a Parthian delegation appeared to Herod seeking the king of the Jews, he had true reason to be concerned or scared. His power was given by Rome, and Parthia may not be so inclined to allow him to rule. Why did this delegation appear? Parthia included Media where the 10 tribes were hauled off to by the Assyrians. It was also home to another great monotheistic religion, the Zoroastrian. So the Parthian word for priest was magi. Anyway the ten tribes were familiar with the prophecies, but having been assimilated into the Parthian culture were not so inclined to return to Israel as were the Jews. These same tribes were the reason Christianity spread so quickly to the East until Islam came along. 2
JLHPROF Posted July 19, 2017 Posted July 19, 2017 3 Nephi 1:2 And Nephi, the son of Helaman, had departed out of the land of Zarahemla, giving charge unto his son Nephi, who was his eldest son, concerning the plates of brass, and allthe records which had been kept, and all those things which had been kept sacred from the departure of Lehi out of Jerusalem.3 Then he departed out of the land, and whither he went, no man knoweth; and his son Nephi did keep the records in his stead, yea, the record of this people. One year before Christ's birth...hmmm. 1
hagoth7 Posted July 20, 2017 Author Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) 15 hours ago, hagoth7 said: What might b/parumpapumpum mean? Simply a percussion sound? Or is some meaning intentionally embedded there? A refrain, embedded in amber. Similar to the cadences we rang/sang out as we marched, double-stepped, or ran in formation as a platoon in boot camp, as we marched or ran in formation before dawn. Each phrase echoed out in verbatim response to what our drill sergeants on our left and on our right hollered out to us. If I recall correctly, I was part of Echo company back then. D&C 1. Parum-pa-pum-pum Hvorum/Varum="each/why" (Danish/Germanic) paa/bo="on/live(dwell)" (Danish/Germanic) Pom/Fem="five" (Welsh [Celtic] /Danish [Germanic]) A reference to one hand/foot. Pom/Fem-="five" (Celtic/Germanic) A reference to the other hand/foot. All hands on deck. Or, "Why fight hand to hand? Parum-pa-pum-pum. When we can each dwell [in peace], side by side? Parum-pa-pum-pum." Or as an awesome young man might say, "Don't be a hater, be a lover." All feet properly shod. Ephesians 6. http://biblehub.com/commentaries/ephesians/6-15.htm The core message of D&C 4....O ye that embark...in the immediate wake of D&C 2 & 3. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/morm/9.31-32?lang=eng&clang=eng#p30I In times past: Nehemiah 4 In our day? I have two little hands. (And two little feet.) Discerned via the likes of James 1:5 - D&C 1 **When I was a kid, on our regular summer road trips in the station wagon, a song that my parents used to sing frequently was "Side by Side."** Mom and dad would take turns singing harmony. After they started, the rest of us would pipe up and join in from the back of the car with gusto. Edited July 20, 2017 by hagoth7
hagoth7 Posted July 20, 2017 Author Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) One interp, that will do for now: Five for Fighting (relevant music) - sword hand free and ready to fight, but extended first in an offer of friendship/peace (Lombards were the first to introduce the striking of hands to Europe - whether one interprets that to be a handshake, and/or a fist bump, and/or a high 5 or a high 10.) And the other five. A modern riff: Live long, and prosper. Two high 10's that meet? A new bridge. Edited July 20, 2017 by hagoth7
hagoth7 Posted July 20, 2017 Author Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) 13 hours ago, Gray said: Perhaps even...a pointy-eared elf? Yep. Both on the one hand, and on the other. Apparently represented by both the western si (welsh/celtic) branch of elves, and the eastern elbe (germanic) branch of elves. Parum-paa-pum-pum Edited July 20, 2017 by hagoth7
hagoth7 Posted July 20, 2017 Author Posted July 20, 2017 (edited) For those not familiar with cadence calls, they're sung when marching/jogging in formation, typically in a column, banner(s) carried front and center. Marching off to peace. Given the choice. Edited July 20, 2017 by hagoth7
hagoth7 Posted July 20, 2017 Author Posted July 20, 2017 Cue: Lexi (When a child is born.) The kind of voice/heart one might have expected to be in that retinue.
hagoth7 Posted July 20, 2017 Author Posted July 20, 2017 On 7/19/2017 at 7:47 AM, hagoth7 said: Perfect. Thank you!!! "Could not be ordinary men." [cue: Eowyn's helm/sword] [cue: halflings...]
Recommended Posts