Mormonism and Quantum Mechanics -- a crazy idea

[hagoth7]

On 7/17/2017 at 8:02 AM, cdowis said:

If any interest is generated by this thread, I have another crazy idea.

Waiting patiently for your other sandal to drop....

[hagoth7]

On 7/17/2017 at 9:34 AM, Bobbieaware said:

Do you think that the spirit bodies of the intelligent spirit children of God experience the same kinds of biochemical reactions that we experience in our earthly bodies?

If Christ's 40-days fast...literally means no mortal sustenance...(unlike John's locusts and honey)...and literally that his meat was to do the will of the father....that would suggest his biology either was different, or thereby became different. Where he could eat...or not eat...with a body that didn't need fuel from this plane of existence.

 

[hagoth7]

On 7/17/2017 at 9:34 AM, Bobbieaware said:

Do you think that the spirit bodies of the intelligent spirit children of God experience the same kinds of biochemical reactions that we experience in our earthly bodies?

1. After seeing the Ephraim Hanks movie, did he have an innate intelligence for the gift of physcial healing...and for faith *in* that gift...that gave him a head start in this life? More innate abillity to transform matter, through faith and priesthood?

2. If you don't yet feel called to seek a specific gift, are you being a bit of a slacker...or is it simply not (yet) your gift to seek?

[hagoth7]

On 7/17/2017 at 9:48 AM, thesometimesaint said:

Joseph claimed they are light and truth. He doesn't define them further. Without appeals to the supernatural I have no idea as to what pre-existent intelligences are. Let alone what they can do.

The quantum level is subatomic. It is hard to see how anything that small as having rational thought.

SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics

Has anyone read any of Chris Stewart's (current congressman) series that attempts to illustrate the preexistence? I've read only the first few pages of the first book in the series, but was told he received instruction from the brethren on matters of doctrine. If so, dunno how *much* input was provided, or how much he took creative license to fill in the gaps....

...but his series suggests that matter was quite tangible in the preexistence. Rocks. Buildings. If this *is* a simulation, and our consciousness actually exists outside of it, what's behind the curtain with us? 

"Don't only pratice your art, but force you way into its secrets, 

for it and knowledge can raise men to the divine."

(quote at begining of a piano guys vid)

Beethoven

Edited July 19, 2017 by hagoth7

[thesometimesaint]

Have never heard of him. However I have no problem with God or Church doctrine. I just have no way to confirm by any known science any claimed supernatural pre- or post mortal existence. Maybe someday I will.

[cdowis]

6 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Have never heard of him. However I have no problem with God or Church doctrine. I just have no way to confirm by any known science any claimed supernatural pre- or post mortal existence. Maybe someday I will.

This thread is dangerously close to being an episode of "The Office".

I think you have summed it all up.

Edited July 19, 2017 by cdowis

[Freedom]

On 7/17/2017 at 6:58 AM, cdowis said:

The Book of Mormon and Abraham make it clear that matter has intelligence, a basic form of free will.  But how far does this intelligence extend? 

I suggest that this intelligence is rooted at the quantum level, which may explain some of the crazy things that happen in this realm.  Perhaps mix in abit of chaos theory as well.

Just a crazy suggestion for some smart person with nothing else to do.

Can you provide a scriptural reference? Understanding the doctrine would held in making the connection to the science. 

[cdowis]

3 hours ago, Freedom said:

Can you provide a scriptural reference? Understanding the doctrine would held in making the connection to the science. 

Hel 12: starting with verse 7.  Note how it implies the agency of man is compa\red with that of the dust, otherwise it does not make sense.

Abraham 4:10 makes it very clear that it is an intelligence, making a conscious choice.

Also the earth mourns for the sins of mankind.

I nrealize you may disagree with my interpretation, but there it is.

Edited July 19, 2017 by cdowis

[Maidservant]

Something I would add:

Please do not confuse 'intelligence' with 'thinking' (i.e. biochemical electrical tardis reactions), as we all know that the two RARELY correspond, lol.

The activity of thinking--the producing of internally audible statements, sometimes including images but not always, sometimes including emotions but not always--produced upon the internal tardis viewer we are currently calling 'the mind', although I just like to call 'the viewer' ('monitor')--is a SYMPTOM or CONSEQUENCE of intake from the environment and/or direction and instruction from our deeper self (that seems to exist and get on quite well without 'thinking'.  Pre-exists any thinking that might be produced).

Not to mention that many persons make decisions/choices from the location of their heart or their belly rather than the march of noise (static) that we call thinking.

I also would not confuse 'intelligence' with awareness, per se, at least not human level awareness.  Perhaps it could be said that there are many kingdoms and the intelligence of each kingdom (to be found in each kingdom) has the awareness associated with that kingdom--just enough measured for what it is.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Maidservant

[hagoth7]

On 7/18/2017 at 7:17 PM, cdowis said:

..You have to start SOMEWHERE, and why not the world of intelligences.  We know nothing about them, and vey little about QM, so it seems an interesting match -- possibly the spiritual world is touching our reality thu QM.  Instantaneous movement thru Infinite distances and possibly past, present and future time.

On that note:

 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

I've always remembered the quote to instead say "What we do in life echoes in the eternities."

More in line with what Joseph said of eternal lives.

Life abundant.

Aligns more with our current understanding of QM.

[Stargazer]

On 7/17/2017 at 6:58 AM, cdowis said:

The Book of Mormon and Abraham make it clear that matter has intelligence, a basic form of free will.  But how far does this intelligence extend? 

I suggest that this intelligence is rooted at the quantum level, which may explain some of the crazy things that happen in this realm.  Perhaps mix in abit of chaos theory as well.

Just a crazy suggestion for some smart person with nothing else to do.

Oh, I've been convinced of this for some time, now.  (2 Ne 2:14)

I've mentioned the double-slit experiment in this forum before -- and the fact that the outcome of the experiment depends upon whether the subject is being "observed" suggests that there's something odd going on under the covers.

[hagoth7]

Brigham said something once about ascension. The whole Jacob's ladder thing. (Or Catholic/Greek Orthodox apotheosis.)

That essentially, you know you're home, you've arrived, when you see yourself.

(Approximate paraphrase....someone else might have the actual quote.)

The New Testament says something similar...(one can choose to take that a different way...or not.) "When we see him..." 1 John 3.

Along the lines of the Premortal Council...that we are in essence here, seeking to become the better version of ourself that already exists, more a matter of remembering who we were...a better version of ourself patterned long ago, after Christ.

Whether one deems that to be sacrilege, the idea that one will meet one's glorified self ("...trails of glory..."), and distort its meaning as if it were instead saying one is creating god in their own image. When it's more the exact opposite. Our better self, in the preMortal plane, is patterned after Christ. Which was in essence the purpose of the Council, to choose what we wanted to become. We chose to emulate Christ. And with such Help, become saviors on Mount Zion, however long the climb.

Cue: Ms. Cyrus

One correction: it *does* matter very much what is on the other side. Meanwhile, Joy in the Journey.

Thoughts? Impressions? 

Edited July 20, 2017 by hagoth7

[Stargazer]

On 7/17/2017 at 10:31 AM, snowflake said:

Great article Robert!  Quantum mechanics is weird stuff, even to the trained expert! I believe the term is "non-locality".... that all photons are somehow connected to each other and know what the others are doing. 

Interesting that the article stated that: "The photons are “entangled” which means that they were created at the exact same moment."   

From what I understand the LDS don't believe matter was "created" but that it has always existed and was "organized" by God and Jesus in the beginning, no?  

2

As Richard Feynman once said, "Nobody understands quantum mechanics."

 

[hagoth7]

23 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Oh, I've been convinced of this for some time, now.  (2 Ne 2:14)

I've mentioned the double-slit experiment in this forum before -- and the fact that the outcome of the experiment depends upon whether the subject is being "observed" suggests that there's something odd going on under the covers.

It suggests that matter/energy, just like people, can get self-conscious when  under observation.

The trick, I believe, is to get outer-focused...get lost in the work, and that way, as Pres. Kimball or Hinckley said, it's easier to find ourselves becausre there's more of us to find.

Came across that quote Sunday, in the lower floor of the SLC visitors' center.  I recommend a visit there. Wasn't necessarily seeking a sign...but the writing literally was on the wall...  :0)

Edited July 21, 2017 by hagoth7

[hagoth7]

Oh...and the Jacob's ladder thing, the premise is that you might also see versions of yourself that are far from what one wishes to become. 

Edited July 20, 2017 by hagoth7

[Stargazer]

On 7/17/2017 at 11:11 AM, Bobbieaware said:

He said more that that. The prophet Joseph Smith also said the following:

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence (D&C 93)

The above clearly means all forms of truth and intelligence, in whatever sphere they are placed, have agency (are free to act for themselves) and if this were not so nothing could exist. So even truth has the ability to make its own free-wiil choices.

Indeed.

It is said by some that God is omnipotent.  That is, that God makes things the way they are.  Under this theory, if two hydrogen atoms bond with one oxygen atom, that is because God made them do so.  In other words, God grabbed the hydrogens and made them bond with the oxygen.

But that does not seem to be the case.  In Genesis we do not read that God ignited the sun (how? by striking a match?), but we read that God said "Let there be light". And it happened. Clearly, God commanded that there be light.  And was obeyed. 

Obedience is something that is given.  By someone, to someone. He was obeyed by someone or something -- there must have been some agency involved, otherwise he would not have commanded that it be done.  

The way that I understand the Universe is this: God made the laws for his creation, and those laws are obeyed.  Because God is the Quantum Mechanic.

So when the physicist says that a proton is composed of two up quarks, one down quark, and the gluons that mediate the forces "binding" them together, you might ask, "Why is that?"  The physicist can only reply "I don't know".  If you ask what a quark is, there is no answer to that, either.  But the quark (not the atom) is the fundamental particle of nature and we have no clue what it is.  If you want a fun read, I suggest the Wikipedia article about Quarks.  But don't get me started about gluons.

 

[Physics Guy]

Observation does indeed affect quantum states, but this statement can be misleading, because the reason why observation affects quantum states is probably not simply and solely that it is observation. Observation is one example of a larger class of interactions, and it seems likely that every interaction in this class affects quantum states in the same way. This whole class of interactions effectively turns quantum amplitudes into probabilities, destroying things like two-slit interference patterns. The class of interactions that does this is not defined by the particular form of forces that are involved, but by the fact that, as a result of the interaction, information about the quantum state in question is effectively recorded somewhere else. That "somewhere else" does not have to be anyone's mind or brain. It can be a microscopic vibration of atoms in a wall somewhere that absorbed a light wave that carried the quantum state information.

Observation is always an interaction. If you see something, it is because light waves bounced off it and then hit your retina. If you hear something, it is because it emitted air pressure waves that eventually pushed on your eardrum. Purely passive observation would be impossible even without quantum mechanics, because we have known since Newton that every action (of an observed thing on whatever detects it) must have a reaction (by which the detection process affects the observed thing). Observation can often be close to passive, however, because all you need to do to observe something is to gather information from it, and information can be represented with very little energy or momentum or force or whatever. An electromagnetic field disturbance that is far too faint to disturb noticeably even a dust mote can easily be strong enough to trigger optic nerve impulses, delivering practically full information about the dust mote while not affecting the dust mote to any significant degree. So in typical human scenarios, observation can still be practically passive, even if it's not absolutely so.

Even without quantum mechanics, however, one might well suspect that passive observation gets harder and harder when you look at small things. A light wave that won't do much at all to a dust mote might give quite a kick to an atom. So it's not even really surprising that observation has more dramatic effects on atomic and molecular scales than we are used to it having on larger scales. 

Quantum mechanics really is surprising, though. Its rules about how information transfer works are counter-intuitive and bizarre—to the point, unfortunately, where I can't think of any good analogies with anything more familiar that would help to explain just what the quantum rules are like and what's strange about them. The strangeness of quantum rules for information exchange is just as strange for information exchange between electrons and photons as it is for information exchange between electrons and human observers. The strange part is not that observation affects things: it's that observation, and lots of other kinds of information-recording interactions as well, affect things in specific ways that one would never expect.

So it is true that quantum mechanics implies weird effects from observation upon microscopic systems, but unfortunately this fact is not by any means the essence of quantum mechanics, any more than lime jello is the essence of Mormonism. Weird observer effects are just a corollary of quantum mechanics—even a trivial and obvious corollary. If you want to see what's really special and specific about quantum mechanics, you have to mess around with some matrices.

At least, that's how theoretical physics looks at it nowadays. It could conceivably be that we're wrong, and that intelligence and consciousness per se somehow really are the essential issues for quantum mechanics. What I'm saying is, there's no good reason today to think that that's true, other than, "Whoa! That'd be cool." 

Edited July 20, 2017 by Physics Guy

[cdowis]

20 hours ago, Stargazer said:

God made the laws for his creation, and those laws are obeyed.  

Natural laws are co-eternal with God -- he did no "create them, and God is subject to those laws.  He is not omnipotent in the traditional Christian sense of the word == He cannot violate natural law.

Edited July 21, 2017 by cdowis

[clarkgoble]

On 7/19/2017 at 2:11 PM, cdowis said:

Hel 12: starting with verse 7.  Note how it implies the agency of man is compa\red with that of the dust, otherwise it does not make sense.

Isn't the contrast because God has total power over the dust whereas it's men he doesn't because of free will? In other words as a contrast it depends upon dust not being free. So it's precisely because things are free that they are less than the dust in terms of obedience.

Quote

Abraham 4:10 makes it very clear that it is an intelligence, making a conscious choice.

The intelligence there are the workers obeying God creating the universe. (This is more explicit in the temple - largely based upon Abr 4) The key here is Joseph's change from Genesis 1 to talk about "the Gods." So it's the entire divine council that is creating and not just one being. In most verses it's clear that it is the Gods both ordering the work and doing the work. (Which makes sense if it is a council) You see that especially in 6 & 7. 

Command: "And the Gods also said: Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and it shall divide the waters from the waters."

Action: "And the Gods ordered the expanse, so that it divided the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse;"

Ordered here means the work of organization not the sense of giving a command as an order. So verse 9 & 10 should be seen parallel to 6 & 7.

Quote

Also the earth mourns for the sins of mankind.

There definitely are verses in the scriptures, particularly the Enochian passages in Moses, where we have a type of animism. I'd say it's poetic but I know not everyone takes them that way. However one can't extrapolate from that a Orson Pratt like view of everything being intelligent. That said clearly in terms of historical interpretation there are pantheistic interpretation of theology. Orson Pratt being the most famous example.

Edited July 21, 2017 by clarkgoble

[clarkgoble]

On 7/20/2017 at 3:38 AM, Physics Guy said:

Observation does indeed affect quantum states, but this statement can be misleading, because the reason why observation affects quantum states is probably not simply and solely that it is observation. Observation is one example of a larger class of interactions, and it seems likely that every interaction in this class affects quantum states in the same way. This whole class of interactions effectively turns quantum amplitudes into probabilities, destroying things like two-slit interference patterns. The class of interactions that does this is not defined by the particular form of forces that are involved, but by the fact that, as a result of the interaction, information about the quantum state in question is effectively recorded somewhere else. That "somewhere else" does not have to be anyone's mind or brain. It can be a microscopic vibration of atoms in a wall somewhere that absorbed a light wave that carried the quantum state information.

Yup I agree completely. Part of this was Von Neumann's putting it in terms of the collapse of the wave function. That approach to QM made this mysterious and combined with the Copenhagen interpretation suggesting something mysterious going on. However if we're just noting that something happened and the math we use to express the state before and the state after is unsurprisingly different the mystery goes away. Honestly I think many of the problems with mystic takes on QM are due to Von Neumann and his pushing the "collapse" talk. If I recall Von Neumann never adopted one of these "consciousness does it" interpretations. For him it could happen at any step of causality and thus was far more open to a realist  interpretation. I vaguely recall Wigner pushing the questions further than Von Neumann did. I seem to recall them talking about it with each other when they were both at Los Alamos. But I'm too lazy to look it up.