Calm Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 3 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: No, it was more like a game of telephone and oral tradition. I wrote, "Here in the USA we celebrate Christmas, doesn't that mean that mark and luke were not history?" So why take the New Testament literally, but not Genesis? Or Exodus, why believe the story of the exodus as history, but not Genesis? No one knows what the in the author's mind, perhaps revelation? The real question is, what is the evidence that creation myths were not intended as history? When the same groups appear to tell multiple versions...
Robert F. Smith Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 6 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: Here in the USA we celebrate Christmas, doesn't that mean that mark and luke were not history? Can someone can point to an ancient creation story that wasn't intended to be history? Non-historical documents are often used to help compose actual histories. Ancient peoples knew little about historiography, and there were no professional historians in Lehi's day. Thus, texts were composed as poetry, liturgy, midrash, genealogy, law, epic, myth, etc. As to pagan Christmas, it is not celebrated on the real birthday of Christ, and most of the celebration (from Yule Logs, Mistletoe, egg nog, and Xmas Trees to Saint Nick) is not even centered on Jesus. Mark was likely composed for public performance, while Luke-Acts is not yet real history-writing (historiography). It is centuries later that actual history texts are first created. Modern scholars often write history texts on contract for schools and encyclopedias. 2
The Nehor Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 4 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: No, it was more like a game of telephone and oral tradition. I wrote, "Here in the USA we celebrate Christmas, doesn't that mean that mark and luke were not history?" So why take the New Testament literally, but not Genesis? Or Exodus, why believe the story of the exodus as history, but not Genesis? No one knows what the in the author's mind, perhaps revelation? The real question is, what is the evidence that creation myths were not intended as history? The problem is it is impossible to take all of the Bible literally. It would drive you mad to try. When God cut Rahab, the primordial beast, was that a literal dragon and can we find a fossil of it? Or that the Book of Genesis is missing the story of the great beast of chaos slain by God at the commencement of creation? When God says we should have a broken heart does that mean that we should get that guy from the Temple of Doom to pull it out for us and then pulverize it as an acceptable sacrifice? Does Jesus literally have a sword sticking out of his mouth with which to slay his enemies? Is it detachable and that is why the Nephites did not mention it? If you want to have fun find someone who insists everything in the Bible is to be taken literally. You cannot be literal when reading almost everything. Some things are literal and some are not. Some things in the New Testament are literal and some are not. Some things in Genesis are literal and some are not. And yes, revelation is the best way to understand the text. Where is the real evidence creation myths were intended as history? There is no definitive evidence either way. Academics can get papers published about it but they are not going to decide the matter. People have long argued about what myths are and whether they are fantastical stories invented by innovative storytellers, jumbled history, an attempt to record true history by mythologizing it, lies to maintain a priest class, entertainment, etc. By comparison in early versions of the Lord of the Rings books Tolkien claimed to have found old documents and translated them, suggesting the story is real. It was a common custom to say those kinds of things at the beginning of books like that at the time. A similar custom holds that if you tell a ghost story around a campfire that the storyteller pretends it is real. Now, suppose in the far future after a large apocalypse that destroys most knowledge of the past a historian finds a first edition copy and reads it. Would he believe the Silmarillion was a widely believed creation myth? That people of our time believed in elves and dwarves and orcs? Why do we have to assume by default that the ancients believed something because they wrote about it? Do you do it for any reason? Or just so you can pretend the burden of proof lies entirely on our side? 1
MormonVideoGame Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, The Nehor said: The problem is it is impossible to take all of the Bible literally. It would drive you mad to try. Yes even young earth creationists agree. 7 hours ago, The Nehor said: Where is the real evidence creation myths were intended as history? There is no definitive evidence either way. Academics can get papers published about it but they are not going to decide the matter. So why not be agnostic about Genesis? 8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Ancient peoples knew little about historiography, and there were no professional historians in Lehi's day. Thus, texts were composed as poetry, liturgy, midrash, genealogy, law, epic, myth, etc. yes, and based on oral tradition. Let me know when you have evidence that a creation story (Egyptian, Chinese, Mayan, Canaanite, or whatever) wasn't seen as literal history. Edited March 13, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
MormonVideoGame Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, Calm said: When the same groups appear to tell multiple versions... Oral traditions. Bart Erhman wrote a good book on how memory works "Jesus Before the Gospels: How the Earliest Christians Remembered, Changed, and Invented Their Stories of the Savior" So you don't believe the events in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John happened? Why not take them metaphorically instead? Why not take the resurrection as a spiritual resurrection? Edited March 13, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
thesometimesaint Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 1 hour ago, MormonVideoGame said: Oral traditions. Bart Erhman wrote a good book on how memory works "Jesus Before the Gospels: How the Earliest Christians Remembered, Changed, and Invented Their Stories of the Savior" So you don't believe the events in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John happened? Why not take them metaphorically instead? Why not take the resurrection as a spiritual resurrection? You can if you want to, but it kinda defeats the purpose of being a Christian.
The Nehor Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 4 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: Oral traditions. Bart Erhman wrote a good book on how memory works "Jesus Before the Gospels: How the Earliest Christians Remembered, Changed, and Invented Their Stories of the Savior" So you don't believe the events in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John happened? Why not take them metaphorically instead? Why not take the resurrection as a spiritual resurrection? Because I am convinced that is not what happened. 1
The Nehor Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 4 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: So why not be agnostic about Genesis? Because I have a spiritual witness of the historical truth of some parts of it.
Robert F. Smith Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 (edited) 13 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: .................................. Quote 12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Ancient peoples knew little about historiography, and there were no professional historians in Lehi's day. Thus, texts were composed as poetry, liturgy, midrash, genealogy, law, epic, myth, etc. yes, and based on oral tradition. Let me know when you have evidence that a creation story (Egyptian, Chinese, Mayan, Canaanite, or whatever) wasn't seen as literal history. My suggestion would be that you familiarize yourself with creation stories from various cultures and then tell me whether any of them are actual historical texts -- cite the professionals who make that claim. Meantime, I notice that you are fearful to engage the Assyro-Babylonian creation story which I mentioned -- was that too close to home for you? Edited March 14, 2017 by Robert F. Smith 1
MormonVideoGame Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 9 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: I notice that you are fearful to engage the Assyro-Babylonian creation story which I mentioned -- was that too close to home for you? I don't even know where is that LOL. Quote One arresting example is the use of the Babylonian Creation story called Enuma elish, which was celebrated as liturgy each New Years Day in Babylon and in Asshur (in a temple in each of those capital cities). Like I said we also celebrate Christmas in the USA, do Americans believe that nativity was not historical?
MormonVideoGame Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 43 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Because I have a spiritual witness of the historical truth of some parts of it. I don't doubt your sincerity. Like you and me, Dr. Jack Wathey also had a strong spiritual witness. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/2016/01/book-review-the-illusion-of-gods-presence/
Robert F. Smith Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 18 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: ................................................ Like I said we also celebrate Christmas in the USA, do Americans believe that nativity was not historical? I haven't taken a poll on whether Americans in general believe that Jesus' nativity was historical, nor whether they think that Xmas is the actual date of his birth. Most people simply take traditional observances for granted without reflecting on them. The real question for you would be: Do you celebrate Xmas as the actual nativity of Jesus, or do you find it primarily a joyous holiday consisting of caroling, gift-giving, kissing under the mistletoe, etc. Do you string pretty lights on your house, and put up a decorated tree? What does Xmas mean to you? Is it an actual historical anniversary? Which professional historical texts prove that to you?
The Nehor Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 2 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: I don't doubt your sincerity. Like you and me, Dr. Jack Wathey also had a strong spiritual witness. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/2016/01/book-review-the-illusion-of-gods-presence/ When you can explain how my infant-mother instincts also explain the ability the prophesy the future I will listen interestedly. Until then that theory does not explain the evidence in my life nor why these experiences, while loving, can also be firm and even harsh. 1
Gray Posted March 13, 2017 Posted March 13, 2017 16 minutes ago, The Nehor said: When you can explain how my infant-mother instincts also explain the ability the prophesy the future I will listen interestedly. Until then that theory does not explain the evidence in my life nor why these experiences, while loving, can also be firm and even harsh. I'm not convinced the ability to prophesy the future exists. Interesting theory - I wonder how it could actually be confirmed? I suppose I'd have to read the book. It doesn't threaten my theology, though.
The Nehor Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 4 hours ago, Gray said: I'm not convinced the ability to prophesy the future exists. Interesting theory - I wonder how it could actually be confirmed? I suppose I'd have to read the book. It doesn't threaten my theology, though. I think it is more likely that his theory explains ABDL fetishists but I have not read that book either. Warning: If you do not know what ABDL is do NOT Google it!
MormonVideoGame Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, The Nehor said: When you can explain how my infant-mother instincts also explain the ability the prophesy the future I will listen interestedly. Mathematical thinking and cognitive biases can explain some predictions that came true. Even believers like Gray don't believe it is possible to know the future. Possibilities: 1. Luck. The odds to hit the Power-ball are 1 in 292 Million, and yet some people hit it. 2. Self-fulfilling prophecy 3. Perhaps the subconscious mind makes rational predictions. 4. ambiguous 5. Or perhaps it was a God. So for the sake of argument let's say it was a God. How do you know it was the God of Christianity? How do you know it was a God that cares about religion, temples, faith, sin, and human sexuality? Perhaps it was some God that was simply trying to help you Edited March 14, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
The Nehor Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 3 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: Mathematical thinking and cognitive biases can explain some predictions that came true. Possibilities: 1. Luck. The odds to hit the Power-ball are 1 in 292 Million, and yet some people hit it. 2. Self-fulfilling prophecy 3. Perhaps the subconscious mind makes rational predictions. 4. ambiguous 5. Or perhaps it was a God. So for the sake of argument let's say it was a God. How do you know it was the God of Christianity? How do you know it was a God that cares about religion, faith, sin, and human sexuality? Perhaps it was some God that was simply trying to help you 1. Doubtful I would win the lottery this many times. 2. Not about still I could influence. 3. My subconscious is not that smart. 4. No, they were clear. 5. Gonna go with that one. How do I know which God it is? He told me. Now I suppose it is possible God might have lied and aliens with mind control lasers are laughing hysterically at me as I fall for their spiritual impulses beamed down from orbital stealth satellites but I do not really buy that theory either.
MormonVideoGame Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 (edited) 33 minutes ago, The Nehor said: 1. Doubtful I would win the lottery this many times. Same for the Power Ball. To hit the PowerBall you have to get lucky several times. You have to get the six white numbers + the red ball. Some people win a big prize in the lottery twice. 33 minutes ago, The Nehor said: 3. My subconscious is not that smart. "Highway hypnosis, also known as white line fever, is a mental state in which a person can drive a truck or other automobile great distances, responding to external events in the expected, safe and correct manner with no recollection of having consciously done so In this state, the driver's conscious mind is apparently fully focused elsewhere, while seemingly still processing the information needed to drive safely." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_hypnosis Don't underestimate the power of the subconscious. 33 minutes ago, The Nehor said: How do I know which God it is? He told me. Now I suppose it is possible God might have lied and aliens with mind control lasers are laughing hysterically at me as I fall for their spiritual impulses beamed down from orbital stealth satellites but I do not really buy that theory either. So he told you his name in a prophecy? Can you clarify? Edited March 14, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
The Nehor Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 5 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: Same for the Power Ball. To hit the PowerBall you have to get lucky several times. There are six numbers + the red ball. Some people win a big prize in the lottery twice. "Highway hypnosis, also known as white line fever, is a mental state in which a person can drive a truck or other automobile great distances, responding to external events in the expected, safe and correct manner with no recollection of having consciously done so In this state, the driver's conscious mind is apparently fully focused elsewhere, while seemingly still processing the information needed to drive safely." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_hypnosis Don't underestimate the power of the subconscious. So he told you his name in a prophecy? Can you clarify? Yes, some people do. I am not that lucky. I have had highway hypnosis. The ability to operate on autopilot through routines is nothing like having an ecstatic experience or seeing the future. I probably should not clarify. I probably should never have brought it up. 1
MormonVideoGame Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I probably should not clarify. I probably should never have brought it up. Maybe not because most people don't have the gift of knowing the future. So how do you go from prophecy to a specific God? Edited March 14, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
The Nehor Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 52 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: Maybe not because most people don't have the gift of knowing the future. So how do you go from prophecy to a specific God? I do not.
MormonVideoGame Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: I do not. So how do you know it is the God of Christianity that gave you the prophesy? 7 hours ago, The Nehor said: When you can explain how my infant-mother instincts also explain the ability the prophesy the future I will listen interestedly. Boy claims to have special knowledge because of reincarnation. His family can't explain it. See 14:13 to 16:00 Edited March 14, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
The Nehor Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 3 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: So how do you know it is the God of Christianity that gave you the prophesy? It is prophecy when it is a noun; prophesy is a verb. Because my experiences that have led me to know God were not the rare times I got The gift of prophecy. Unless you are positing that there are hundreds of gods masquerading as each other that communicate in the same way it seems logical that the God who testified of Christ is the same one who gives me occasional gifts of the spirit. In any case I am not going to share details so you can dissect my experiences. Even if I could convince you (and I doubt I could) it would not be helpful. What is with the irrelevant tangents you alway wander into? What does reincarnation have to do with what we are talking about? We have a reincarnation thread already.
Gray Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 11 hours ago, The Nehor said: I think it is more likely that his theory explains ABDL fetishists but I have not read that book either. Warning: If you do not know what ABDL is do NOT Google it! I don't know what it is, and I'll forgo googling!
MormonVideoGame Posted March 14, 2017 Posted March 14, 2017 10 hours ago, The Nehor said: What is with the irrelevant tangents you alway wander into? What does reincarnation have to do with what we are talking about? We have a reincarnation thread already. Family says it was impossible for boy to know the things that he knows. See 14:13 to 16:00. 10 hours ago, The Nehor said: Because my experiences that have led me to know God were not the rare times I got The gift of prophecy. but you seemed to be convinced because of your prophecy. You said, "When you can explain how my infant-mother instincts also explain the ability the prophesy the future I will listen interestedly. " Based on that sentence prophecy seems to be the foundation of your faith, without it you probably wouldn't be here in the MDDB. Where does LDS doctrine say that prophecy should be the foundation of our testimony?
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