Leaving the 99 for the 1

[clarkgoble]

36 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Would the shepherd forcefully bring the sheep back knowing that the sheep hates the shepherd and will run away again when he gets the next chance? 

Well since the shepherd is probably raising them to eat them, yeah, he probably would. But this is where analogies break down. LOL.

[stemelbow]

16 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I don't think it's lost. Though I would word it differently, I think the concern and sometimes energy put into this specific niche population is disproportionate. And in wards it's not the 99 and 1 lost sheep. It's often the 80 and 20 lost sheep. 10 are heading near a cliff, 5 are wandering aimlessly, 4 are relatively in open land but have illnesses that need treatment, 1 is very far off, in another land, and possibly unreachable at their current place. though the other sheep may have pieces of their concerns (doubts from historical issues, current issues, etc) most aren't really headed in that direction. So which do you focus on first? 

huh?  you don't like the parable of leaving the 99 for the 1?  You want it to change to something else?  I'm confused what your point is. 

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I also think these cases are closer to the prodigal son. He wasn't simply lost, he left. His father didn't stop him and didn't come for him until he was ready to turn back and return. At which point the father made the journey home easier. The cases mentioned aren't simply lost or gone astray, they're actively leaving. 

Call it what you will.  I on the other hand see clear applications to the leaving the 99 for the 1 (it's such a great application the percentage of people who have left according to the SP is 1 of 100).  People who leave can be considered lost.  We're all a little lost getting tossed about with different ideas and such.  They're not out living riotously, per se, even if one of the 50 is. 

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I don't mean this to be callous or uncaring about their concerns. Far from it. But I don't believe in focusing my energy on people who do not want said help. We also have a tendency, both on this board and elsewhere to focus on specific pet topics. Though some of these are definitely important, globally (or even locally, in this case) they may be "no big deal" or at least far less of a deal than we have placed on it.  It probably shouldn't be the focus of a specific ward's efforts to meet the needs of its congregants and less-active members when other issues may be more pressing and relevant to their sheep, both lost and found. 

Yes, not wanting help is an interesting twist in all of this.  Most of us, it seems to me, don't want help.  But the Church tells us we need to help each other.  So we're left forcing our help on those who don't need it.  But I guess that's a bit off topic.  For me the 50 leavers don't need help per se.  They need love and acceptance.  Telling a group that the minority others are no big deal is just terrible if you ask me.  Feel free to disagree. 

 

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Luckily we're also not called to just be sheep but servants of Christ. It means that we are all personally called to meet those groups that the stake can't focus on rescuing.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that this is about where the stake focuses.  This isn't about focus. 

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I keep thinking of this time that I saw a woman on the street with a sign. Where I work and live I see this all the time. I often go by, knowing that giving money isn't necessarily the best move and homeless advocates often strongly discourage it. But this woman stuck out and I knew her heart was afraid and at a breaking point. I felt prompted to help her and turned around. She was stranded, hurt from a boyfriend, and vulnerable/hungry. She was also bitter towards the LDS church who her local leaders hadn't been the best. So I did what I could, got her solid food, and drove her to the train station to leave her with a prayer and simply testimony, after hearing her hurts. It struck me that most wouldn't know both passing her by and in the larger church. Her life meant that the records were likely not up to date to where she was and she looked little different from anyone else who held a sign near parking lots, panhandling. She was really really lost...but God had not forgotten her.

I haven't become a scholar fighting back on historical concerns and rewriting narratives, I haven't become a homeless advocate fighting to heal the lost and afflicted. I still drive by most panhandlers/homeless, knowing there isn't much I can do for them.

 I have my niche to help and heal. And in a moment I was prompted to reach out and do something outside the norm. Not necessarily make it my new norm. Each of us do. My thought is, if you want to help, help. Pray for opportunities to work and be His hands. It doesn't have to be the stake president who leads all efforts to bring in ALL lost or wandering sheep. It is his to focus the efforts to best meet as many as he/the wards can. Based on what he hears from the leaders of these wards. If you feel unqualified, ask to become what is needed and to know where your limits lie...to know where your focus should be. But in the end I think there are personal limits to what we can and should focus our attention on in our spheres of influence. It's not cold, it's not forgetting the lost. It's knowing how best to help with the limitations we have. In the end, we will never be Jesus. Just a small part of His body of believers. 

 

With luv,

BD 

 

I'm happy to help.  But again, beside the point. 

Edited March 2, 2017 by stemelbow

[stemelbow]

12 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

The words of Jesus of the shepherd going back to find the lost shepherd is one that he expects the sheep to return to the shepherd when found.  The sheep will come back willingly,  When a person leaves the church and goes so far is personally removes their name from the Church, they are purposely rejecting their baptismal covenant.  They are rejecting the shepherd himself.  Would the shepherd forcefully bring the sheep back knowing that the sheep hates the shepherd and will run away again when he gets the next chance? 

I don't know that I can disagree with your perspective more.  Take care.  till next time, I guess.

[HappyJackWagon]

16 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I don't think it's lost. Though I would word it differently, I think the concern and sometimes energy put into this specific niche population is disproportionate. And in wards it's not the 99 and 1 lost sheep. It's often the 80 and 20 lost sheep. 10 are heading near a cliff, 5 are wandering aimlessly, 4 are relatively in open land but have illnesses that need treatment, 1 is very far off, in another land, and possibly unreachable at their current place. though the other sheep may have pieces of their concerns (doubts from historical issues, current issues, etc) most aren't really headed in that direction. So which do you focus on first? 

I also think these cases are closer to the prodigal son. He wasn't simply lost, he left. His father didn't stop him and didn't come for him until he was ready to turn back and return. At which point the father made the journey home easier. The cases mentioned aren't simply lost or gone astray, they're actively leaving. 

I don't mean this to be callous or uncaring about their concerns. Far from it. But I don't believe in focusing my energy on people who do not want said help. We also have a tendency, both on this board and elsewhere to focus on specific pet topics. Though some of these are definitely important, globally (or even locally, in this case) they may be "no big deal" or at least far less of a deal than we have placed on it.  It probably shouldn't be the focus of a specific ward's efforts to meet the needs of its congregants and less-active members when other issues may be more pressing and relevant to their sheep, both lost and found. 

 

Luckily we're also not called to just be sheep but servants of Christ. It means that we are all personally called to meet those groups that the stake can't focus on rescuing.

 

 

This is a good point. The lost sheep is a part of a series of parables, lost coin, lost sheep, prodigal that reflect differences in how a person might approach different lost items. Not every person is the same. For one person they may need the shepherd to come looking. For another, they may need their space while their parents wait patiently for them to return.

I'm reminded of the Tolkien quote "Not all those who wander are lost."

[BlueDreams]

On 3/2/2017 at 7:39 AM, stemelbow said:

huh?  you don't like the parable of leaving the 99 for the 1?  You want it to change to something else?  I'm confused what your point is. 

Call it what you will.  I on the other hand see clear applications to the leaving the 99 for the 1 (it's such a great application the percentage of people who have left according to the SP is 1 of 100).  People who leave can be considered lost.  We're all a little lost getting tossed about with different ideas and such.  They're not out living riotously, per se, even if one of the 50 is. 

Yes, not wanting help is an interesting twist in all of this.  Most of us, it seems to me, don't want help.  But the Church tells us we need to help each other.  So we're left forcing our help on those who don't need it.  But I guess that's a bit off topic.  For me the 50 leavers don't need help per se.  They need love and acceptance.  Telling a group that the minority others are no big deal is just terrible if you ask me.  Feel free to disagree. 

 

I don't know where you're getting the idea that this is about where the stake focuses.  This isn't about focus. 

I'm happy to help.  But again, beside the point. 

I got bogged down this week with work and couldn't find time to respond. But I have a minute before my next client. 

I do not have a problem with the 99 parable. I don't know if the parable fits the circumstance that the bishop is describing. HJW got what I was saying, that there may be more then one way to deal with a concern. 

In general, I try really hard to give someone the benefit of the doubt when I'm hearing a story second hand. Which is what I was trying to do in this one towards the bishop. It's not that I don't trust you, I've just seen so many stories from one side that changes in sometimes significant ways when another voice is added. Often the truth of a statement is found somewhere in between the 2 stories. I was looking as to what this stake president in this area is talking about. And other potential meanings in your area. 

People who leave can be considered lost, but not all lost can be immediately saved by us. Or even Jesus. I don't believe in forcing my help on anyone. My job is literally helping people. It's antithetical to healing to try and force growth. Consistent knocking, sure. Looking for openings and areas you can bridge into, definitely. Moving slowly into discomfort, yes. But as soon as they say: I really don't want this and show so, I don't push. That is something I Disagree with you as to what we're asked to do. With my inactive brother, I don't push. I tell him my opinions when a specific topic is brought up. I bring him to an activity I know he'll like, and I'll share my spiritual, religious life when it comes up in my life and feels appropriate. But pushing isn't what I do. It just isn't. 

I can understand the urgency and desire for the broad topic not to be swept under the rug. If you want something done, go ask for clarification and explain your concerns. If you see an area, do your best to help. For example, personally, I've run into a string of rape and sexual assualt stories in my practice that got under my skin. It is getting to a point that I could tell them their story before they finished it. So I went to my SP offered up my services in presenting discussions with YSA's. He would offer it to wards as they liked. It may not work, I may not have any takers. But I did something and I talk to anyone who will listen about this and other topics when I have the chance. It's not an astounding structural change. The changes I would like to see may not happen over night. But I do as much as I can and that is enough. If you feel especially tied to this cause then bring it up. If nothing happens, accept that nothing happens and work in your circle and reach to help as much as you can. That is about all you can do.

IF you grow frustrated, remember you're not the only one concerned or moving to help. You do not have to single handedly bring a focus in the stake that the stake president doesn't feel is needed at the time. There have been several moves and pushes to help address concerns, especially before they get to a point where help is unlikely to happen.  There are changes in narrative and people working to do such, to bring a more nuanced picture to concerns and compassion to those who struggle but want to remain. 

 

With luv, 

BD